Local Cartomancy Traditions

[katrinka]

What I'm really enjoying is how baggage free the method is. It's a Tarot, but things from other Tarot methods aren't stuck all over it. I was just looking at the cover of the Tartari book and thinking about the Angel. It's just the Angel, not Judgement. It's "Goodness, Friendship, Peace, Solution, Spirituality". Some of the combos over at the Moderately Quick Silver blog are:
 

Angel + Queen of Coins = faith

Angel + Page of Coins = prayer (probably also good/positive words)

Angel + Juggler + World = pregnancy (the World is the belly)

Angel + Death = yes, for sure (either to a question or to the cards preceding them)
(Death is certain for all of us, so it's read as a 'yes' card.)

It's just the angel, there's not different things going on all over it. No people coming up out of the graves. You don't have to decide if it's a wake up call, or something that's been dormant starting up again, etc. And you certainly don't have to slog through useless blather like "the card is calling you to rise up and embrace a higher level of consciousness for the service of your Highest Good."

It would be a mistake to think of it as dumbed down. I've seen people do that with Lenormand. They see a little 36 card deck with single images on each card and think they can learn it in a few months. Wrong, try 5-10 years if you aren't familiar with old cartomantic methods! The best reading decks trim the fat. Everything is just clear and logical. I love how untainted this all is!

Edited February 11, 2025 by katrinka

[katrinka]

And from this post, a more detailed description:

"The Angel or Judgement
The best card in the deck, the Angel is the card of goodness, peace, friendship, protection. It brings solutions to difficult situations. However, if followed by cards indicating obstacles or impossibility, it can show the solution is delayed or impossible. When coupled with a person card, it can signify the person is an angel for us, helping and protecting us, or that they are good. It is also the main card connected with spirituality."

It can sometimes function almost like a deux ex machina, in the sense that it can provide a sudden or unexpected solution to a difficulty. I like the emphasis on how it can interact with neighboring cards. You just don't get explanations like this in writings about modern Tarot!

[akiva]

13 hours ago, katrinka said:

What I'm really enjoying is how baggage free the method is. It's a Tarot, but things from other Tarot methods aren't stuck all over it. I was just looking at the cover of the Tartari book and thinking about the Angel. It's just the Angel, not Judgement. It's "Goodness, Friendship, Peace, Solution, Spirituality".

This is what I like about it aswell. It's also a system that's remained relatively unchanged too. Apart from adding more cards, it's kept that fortune telling vibe that modern tarot lacks. Seeing just a few keywords can be so refreshing!

 

13 hours ago, katrinka said:

Some of the combos over at the Moderately Quick Silver blog are:
 

Angel + Queen of Coins = faith

Angel + Page of Coins = prayer (probably also good/positive words)

Angel + Juggler + World = pregnancy (the World is the belly)

Angel + Death = yes, for sure (either to a question or to the cards preceding them)
(Death is certain for all of us, so it's read as a 'yes' card.)

Does MQS have the Angel + Devil combo of "good news, joys coming soon"? I have to admit, this one confused me for a while. I think Angel mitigates the Devils anger/wickedness, but can't be certain. 

 

13 hours ago, katrinka said:

The best reading decks trim the fat. Everything is just clear and logical. I love how untainted this all is!

This is so true, and once you start digging into other cultures cartomancy, you realise that reduced deck methods outweigh whole deck methods by a lot. And for good reason, as you say it trims the fat. 

 

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

It can sometimes function almost like a deux ex machina, in the sense that it can provide a sudden or unexpected solution to a difficulty. I like the emphasis on how it can interact with neighboring cards. You just don't get explanations like this in writings about modern Tarot!

In the 13 card spread Angel also acts as the secondary confirmation, and if both Death and Angel come out it's supposed to be a resounding yes. 

 

Which is another thing I love about these kinds of systems. There's no "you can't use this for yes/no readings", because they created methods in which to answer those styles of questions. They're also primed for third party readings, but that's a whole other topic... 🤣

[katrinka]

8 hours ago, akiva said:

Does MQS have the Angel + Devil combo of "good news, joys coming soon"? I have to admit, this one confused me for a while. I think Angel mitigates the Devils anger/wickedness, but can't be certain. 

Yes, the combo list has:

"Devil + Angel = great satisfaction or good news (regardless of the order of the cards)

 

"But they also say:

"The Angel is good, but followed by the Hermit and the Tower it is diminished."

So I don't know the reasoning behind it. Surely the Devil is stronger than the Hermit and the Tower?

[katrinka]

9 hours ago, akiva said:

In the 13 card spread Angel also acts as the secondary confirmation, and if both Death and Angel come out it's supposed to be a resounding yes. 

 

Which is another thing I love about these kinds of systems. There's no "you can't use this for yes/no readings", because they created methods in which to answer those styles of questions. They're also primed for third party readings, but that's a whole other topic... 🤣

At one time, card reading superstitions were "You must..."
"You must keep your deck wrapped in silk."
"Your deck must be stolen."
"Your first deck must be given to you."
Etc.

Now the superstitions are "You can't..."
"You can't do yes/no readings."
"You can't do third party readings."
"You can't predict the future."
Etc.

The old superstitions are actually more constructive. At least you get a nice piece of silk.

[akiva]

17 hours ago, katrinka said:

So I don't know the reasoning behind it. Surely the Devil is stronger than the Hermit and the Tower?

That's my thinking too, there must be a reason behind it. Maybe it's something that's just been repeated and the meaning behind why is lost 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

15 hours ago, katrinka said:

The old superstitions are actually more constructive. At least you get a nice piece of silk.

They also feel more folk-like. You happen to be gifted a deck and now you've got the opportunity to tell fortunes. Back then it was a rarer thing. Not many could throw money around like that. Even the opportunity to be in a situation to steal a deck was probably rarer than today. Not that that justifies doing it 🤣

 

Strictures/supersitions have also existed in other forms of divination like astrology or geomancy. Though they were more to save the tellers neck from the noose. In geomancy you'd literally destroy the whole chart if Rubeus or Cauda Draconis appeared in the first house, which logically makes no sense today, but back then if your life depended on that reading... 😅

[Scandinavianhermit]

17 hours ago, katrinka said:

So I don't know the reasoning behind it. Surely the Devil is stronger than the Hermit and the Tower?

Not if The Tower is divine intervention. 

[katrinka]

4 hours ago, akiva said:

They also feel more folk-like. You happen to be gifted a deck and now you've got the opportunity to tell fortunes. Back then it was a rarer thing. Not many could throw money around like that.

True, though gaming decks have always been pretty affordable. Compare a limited edition Tarot on Kickstarter with a $1 pack of Mavericks at Dollar General. These Italian decks are still pretty inexpensive. Most of what I've paid has been shipping costs.
 

4 hours ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

Not if The Tower is divine intervention.

That makes perfect sense, at least in the context of the Tower we're used to.

 

But I still wonder...the Bolognese Tower doesn't carry the meaning of divine intervention, and the card doesn't show a lightning strike. The Tower is simply on fire and coming apart, with no explanation of what caused it. It might have been explosives for all we know. And the interpretation is along the lines of "someplace you don't want to be."
From the MQS site:

"The image shows a burning building, and the main meaning is consequently that of places we’d rather not find ourselves in, mostly prison or hospital (or, if next to the Ace of Cups, our home). However, it can also signify a metaphorical prison, that is, a situation that is strongly limiting for us and prevents us from fleeing or moving freely, where we must sacrifice our hopes and aspirations or resources at least in part (“sacrificio” is one of the main Italian keywords for this card). Whether this card can indicate neutral or positive places is up for debate, as it depends on the school of thought. I guess in the appropriate context and with the appropriate cards it might, but generally, in my experience, it mostly shows negative places or negative situations. It can, however, show neutral places of authority (like a city hall, where there is an authority above us) or very large or foreboding buildings."

The Sicilian cards stray even further from what we think of as the Tarot Tower, since in that deck the Tower is perfectly intact. It will be interesting to find out what's up with that.

 

[Scandinavianhermit]

2 minutes ago, katrinka said:

The Sicilian cards stray even further from what we think of as the Tarot Tower, since in that deck the Tower is perfectly intact. It will be interesting to find out what's up with that.

In a French deck from the 1550s, the trump we now commonly know as The Tower depicts the gates of Hades/Purgatory, rather than the tower of Babel. Could it be, that Bologna and Sicily went with the Hades association instead?

[katrinka]

5 minutes ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

In a French deck from the 1550s, the trump we now commonly know as The Tower depicts the gates of Hades/Purgatory, rather than the tower of Babel. Could it be, that Bologna and Sicily went with the Hades association instead?

I've seen those. The Minchiate has that, too, and it's Italian. It's called La Casa del Diavolo, "The House of the Devil" (or sometimes "The House of God" IIRC. Go figure, lol.)



The Bolognese is a very old pattern, so you might be onto something. I'm still in "wait and see" mode, but this is a pretty strong possibility IMHO.

[akiva]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

True, though gaming decks have always been pretty affordable. Compare a limited edition Tarot on Kickstarter with a $1 pack of Mavericks at Dollar General. These Italian decks are still pretty inexpensive. Most of what I've paid has been shipping costs.

I was thinking more Tarocco Bolognese, regional cards as you say are/were much cheaper. I read on an Italian forum that they used to read regional decks in alleyways on the floor, so that's probably evidence to how easily obtainable they were.

[katrinka]

5 hours ago, akiva said:

I read on an Italian forum that they used to read regional decks in alleyways on the floor, so that's probably evidence to how easily obtainable they were.

Were, and probably still are. I've had friends who visited Italy tell me that there are Sibilla decks at the checkout stands in supermarkets, where we see National Enquirers, cheesy horoscope books, etc. in the US.
Italy sounds like a cartomante's dream, TBH.

[Scandinavianhermit]

7 hours ago, katrinka said:

Were, and probably still are. I've had friends who visited Italy tell me that there are Sibilla decks at the checkout stands in supermarkets, where we see National Enquirers, cheesy horoscope books, etc. in the US.
Italy sounds like a cartomante's dream, TBH.

Is that true about the entire country? Just as Germany (as well as Poland) has an internal cultural east-west divide, I believe Italy (as well as France) has an internal cultural north-south divide.

 

For comparison: My own country consists of at least five cultural 'belts', as it were, with annual St. Martin's goose dinner almost exclusively found in the southernmost belt, and with quadrilingualism exclusively in the northernmost belt, but in none of the belts will you find cartomancy decks at Co-op. 

Edited February 14, 2025 by Scandinavianhermit
'at least'

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

Is that true about the entire country? Just as Germany (as well as Poland) has an internal cultural east-west divide, I believe Italy (as well as France) has an internal cultural north-south divide

I seriously doubt it's true for the entire country. And Italy, as far as I can tell, has a lot of little regional differences. Even their cartomancy methods seem numerous.
 

1 hour ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

For comparison: My own country consists of at least five cultural 'belts', as it were, with annual St. Martin's goose dinner almost exclusively found in the southernmost belt, and with quadrilingualism exclusively in the northernmost belt, but in none of the belts will you find cartomancy decks at Co-op. 

My state consists of multiple cultural belts.
Please don't think any less of me for this, but I'm in Texas. (And no, I didn't vote for ANY of those guys.) Mexican? Cajun? The "Bohemian Belt" (Czech settlement)? Black? German? Just because I can find sausage kolaches at the bakery in my hometown doesn't mean I can get anything but frozen ones where I live now. (I do know how to make them, but if you do it correctly, it's labor intensive and time consuming!)

[Scandinavianhermit]

2 minutes ago, katrinka said:

My state consists of multiple cultural belts.
Please don't think any less of me for this, but I'm in Texas. (And no, I didn't vote for ANY of those guys.) Mexican? Cajun? The "Bohemian Belt" (Czech settlement)? Black? German? Just because I can find sausage kolaches at the bakery in my hometown doesn't mean I can get anything but frozen ones where I live now. (I do know how to make them, but if you do it correctly, it's labor intensive and time consuming!)

I'm very excited to hear this! I will gladly continue discussion about this in private messages.

[katrinka]

Oh, dear, there's so many. No, I don't need any more. I'll stick with Bolognese and Sicilian for now, thanks!
https://www.modiano.it/en/products/regional-cards/

 

[akiva]

38 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Oh, dear, there's so many. No, I don't need any more. I'll stick with Bolognese and Sicilian for now, thanks!
https://www.modiano.it/en/products/regional-cards/

 

Too many, and each deck has many different versions, anniversary, plasticated, etc. 😅 Just spied this though:

https://www.modiano.it/en/product/piemontesi-5-54-carte/

 

Being 54 card it could be used for piquet and Italian cartomancy! I'm going to have to get it 😆

 

[katrinka]

6 hours ago, akiva said:

Too many, and each deck has many different versions, anniversary, plasticated, etc. 😅 Just spied this though:

https://www.modiano.it/en/product/piemontesi-5-54-carte/

 

Being 54 card it could be used for piquet and Italian cartomancy! I'm going to have to get it 😆

 

Well if it's doing double duty, you'll certainly get your money's worth!

All I'm waiting on is books now. I should have the one for the Sicilian cards sometime next week.
Tracking the Tartari book for the Bolognese cards was confusing. Amazon tracking, as usual, is no help. Arriving March 5 - March 25 is a pretty big window of time. But I did get a tracking number, and the carrier is Spring, so I went to 17 Track.

My tracking number ends with 'NL', which is Netherlands. But the carrier is out of Hong Kong. Wha...?



Luckily, USPS says it's 40 miles away now and the expected delivery is Friday.

Edited February 21, 2025 by katrinka

[akiva]

8 hours ago, katrinka said:

Tracking the Tartari book for the Bolognese cards was confusing. Amazon tracking, as usual, is no help. Arriving March 5 - March 25 is a pretty big window of time. But I did get a tracking number, and the carrier is Spring, so I went to 17 Track.

I'm excited to see what you think of this book. If the reviews are anything to go by it should be a keeper!

 

8 hours ago, katrinka said:

My tracking number ends with 'NL', which is Netherlands. But the carrier is out of Hong Kong. Wha...?

Me and my partner recently had a parcel from America go the wrong way round the world. It took months to arrive. Iirc it was hovering around the Himalayas for weeks. Post can be weird 😅 

[katrinka]

17 minutes ago, akiva said:

Me and my partner recently had a parcel from America go the wrong way round the world. It took months to arrive. Iirc it was hovering around the Himalayas for weeks. Post can be weird 😅 

It did Seven Years In Tibet. 🤣
 

18 minutes ago, akiva said:

I'm excited to see what you think of this book. If the reviews are anything to go by it should be a keeper!

Will do and yes, I've got good expectations.
The other book (Tarocco Siciliano) is a complete mystery, though. I'll have to wait and see.

[akiva]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

The other book (Tarocco Siciliano) is a complete mystery, though. I'll have to wait and see.

I can't quite tell if it's good because it's good, or if it's good because it's literally the only one available for the deck. 

[katrinka]

2 hours ago, akiva said:

I can't quite tell if it's good because it's good, or if it's good because it's literally the only one available for the deck. 

 

However bad it is, I'm sure it's better than the stuff they try to sell us in the US.

I got the Tartari book! I'm only just getting started. The beginning is history and deck structure. Google Lens is doing an adequate translation. A little rough in places - "Matto" translates as "Carpet" and I don't know where "Wavey" came from. But I can get the gist easily enough.

 

[katrinka]

It's apparently not the only one available:

https://www.amazon.it/carte-siciliane-Maria-Rita-Insolera/dp/B09NGVLR1C/262-0927296-7746517

https://www.amazon.it/I-tarocchi-siciliani-Simone-Cardullo/dp/889831129X/262-0927296-7746517

 

The Tarocco Siciliano book arrived today, and that's enough for now. Lots of color illustrations and it's sparse on words, kind of a Dick and Jane look but it's CONCISE. I wish more Tarot books didn't blather.  The pages explaining the Minors have a lot of white space. Room for notes. The Majors, less.

I translated a few of the more puzzling ones: the the Tower is strong, impenetrable, a good defense. These squatty towers with very  thick walls apparently exist on the coastline. An effective defense. The people on the Moon card are meeting in a clandestine manner. Falsehoods, secrets, etc. The Sun is the end of discord after the storm, but context depends heavily on nearby cards. Can represent the natural wickedness of man, sometimes induced by survival.

It's usable. I like it so far. It's enough to get started reading the deck.

 

 

 

 

 

[katrinka]

The takeaway from all of this is that Italian cartomancy seems to be unscathed by the obfuscating silliness that has infected Anglo cartomancy. People slip away and do things secretly. They fight, they make peace, etc. There are no Biddyisms! 🙂

[Scandinavianhermit]

A little booklet named Nytt sätt att spå i kort (A new manner of telling fortune by cards) was printed in Sweden in 1791, and it saw several reprints (and expanded editions) the following forty years. It was the first attested cartomancy method in Sweden. The full title of the booklet claims an "oriental" origin, brought to Sweden by "an Arab". The later editions in the 1820s added an additional 52 card method, but since copies of this booklet are rare, I don't have one myself. 

Only 24 cards are used in the original method from 1791:

 

Hearts

Ace: Love letter, a letter hoped for

King: Pleasant man, suitor

Queen: Good woman

Knave: A relative or the thoughts of the king

Ten: Friendship, confiding a secret

Six: A road (also "path" in a figurative sense), happy journey

 

Diamonds

Ace: Money

King: A rich man

Queen: An elderly lady or a sincere and candid woman

Knave: A young man or a military officer

Ten: Large sum of money, expensive gift

Six: An unexpected journey

 

Spades

Ace: Sad news or gossip

King: An elderly man or a clergyman (the Swedish original use the word "priest" for cultural reasons, because Nordic Lutheranism, unlike Anglo-Saxon Protestantism, preserve the words "priest" and "Mass")

Queen: An old gossip or scandalmonger

Knave: A "false man" or a man in a traveling line of work

Ten: Grave illness or death

Six: An "unhappy path" or an unhappy journey

 

Clubs

Ace: Your home, loss without any fault of yourself

King: A relative or a non-military man

Queen: A quarrellous woman, child-birth out of wedlock

Knave: Fortunate lottery or business transaction

Ten: Great danger, fire

Six: "Path of sadness" or a sad journey, disappointment

 

Edited February 25, 2025 by Scandinavianhermit
1820s, not 1820