Local Cartomancy Traditions

[Raggydoll]

4 hours ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

I suspect that good old fortune telling with a playing card deck with 36 cards was also around, back in the days. Most of the popular cardgames only needed 36 cards (A, 7-10 and the court cards), and a 36 card deck was cheaper than a 52 card one. @Raggydoll is working on a theory, that some (but not all) regional playingcard reading methods in Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Russia and Poland share a common ancestor (sharing the same inland sea, the Baltic one), and I'm curious about that theory, too. It would be interesting to know, if that proto-method spread to Ukraine, Belarus and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, too.

I actually did find something interesting about that lately. The book which is said to be the first example of the Russian tradition was published in 1899. I had thought the Russian tradition was older than that, but that is not the case:

 

”The Russian system is a late bloomer, compared to its French or German competitors – the first appearances of what we could call a proto-Russian method can be traced to mid-XIX century (before that, the books published were translations of the German and French sources). In 1899, a booklet called “The Friend of the Yearning” was published in Saint-Petersburg, marking one of the first documented appearances of the spread that would later be known as the Classic Russian.”

https://www.worlddivinationassociation.com/single-post/2018/12/16/beware-the-diamond-interest-adventures-in-the-russian-card-meanings

 

 I found a copy and noticed that it starts off with a quote from a Swedish book on divination:

 

So it is clear that the Russian author had read books about the Swedish methods, and perhaps drawn some inspiration from them. The Swedish cartomancy traditions have been detailed in books that definitely predate the Russian ones, so it makes sense that the Russian method might be influenced by this. I believe that the polish and Ukrainian methods were developed out of the Russian method, because they are very similar. 
 

All that this told me is that the Swedish method does not stem from Russia. I would like to see some older Finnish sources and compare, but I guess it is possible that the Swedish method is from Sweden and not from anywhere else 😄 🤷🏻‍♀️

 

(Sorry if this is off topic, staff is free to split this discussion off if they like)

[akiva]

4 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I actually did find something interesting about that lately. The book which is said to be the first example of the Russian tradition was published in 1899. I had thought the Russian tradition was older than that, but that is not the case:

This blog post is focused on how the Jacks in Russian cartomancy have changed meanings over the years (maybe the older meanings reflect Swedish ones?), but it goes into a brief history of how Russia got its cards from Poland, France and Germany.

 

There was also a book from 1819 called “The Astrologer, or the New Oracle, Revealing the Fate of Human Happiness and Misfortune, in the Mirror of the Great Albert with the Advent of Science,” that had fortune telling meanings in it. Though I'm not sure if this is just a translation of an existing German book or not. 

 

It's not exhaustive, but here's a list of a few fortune telling books from the Russian National Library for anyone interested.

[DanielJUK]

I've split this discussion off from this original Introduction thread here -

 

The title can be changed if something fits better 😀

[akiva]

1 hour ago, DanielJUK said:

I've split this discussion off from this original Introduction thread here -

Thanks Dan! 😄

 

Here's two more for the list:

 

I found a 52 card Russian system by Konstantin Yuryevich Preobrazhensky. Interestingly 7 of Hearts and 7 of Clubs are thoughts of a blonde and brunette woman respectively, which is something that appears in French cartomancy. 

 

Here's a blog post about a 15 page Russian booklet about cartomancy, attributed to Count Cagliostro. It's another 52 card system, and the method provided is one that's found in a lot of western cartomancy books.

[katrinka]

2 hours ago, akiva said:

 

Here's a blog post about a 15 page Russian booklet about cartomancy, attributed to Count Cagliostro. It's another 52 card system, and the method provided is one that's found in a lot of western cartomancy books.

That lady sitting on a rock watching the ships is pure Italian Sibilla (6 of Spades.) I don't believe Sibilla was invented out of whole cloth. It strikes me as yet another playing card method that somebody illustrated.

 

It's probably a mistake to ignore Italian cartomancy. Italy borders France and it's not far from a lot of the other countries mentioned.

Then again, there are so many little local methods there that it would confuse the issue. Every region plays different games, with different numbers of cards removed from the deck. And where there's a game, there's a reading method. Bolognese, Premiera, Sicilian, etc....take your pick.

 

9 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

So it is clear that the Russian author had read books about the Swedish methods, and perhaps drawn some inspiration from them. The Swedish cartomancy traditions have been detailed in books that definitely predate the Russian ones, so it makes sense that the Russian method might be influenced by this. I believe that the polish and Ukrainian methods were developed out of the Russian method, because they are very similar. 
 

Yep. Everything gets around. I don't envy you guys the task of untangling all this.

[akiva]

30 minutes ago, katrinka said:

That lady sitting on a rock watching the ships is pure Italian Sibilla (6 of Spades.) I don't believe Sibilla was invented out of whole cloth. It strikes me as yet another playing card method that somebody illustrated.

According to Etienne the Italian Sibilla is the love child of Kipper and the Zigeuner Wahrsagekarten being smushed together. Which I totally agree with, as there's so many cards that overlap. For example the Old Lady has "a visit" written on it in La Vera Sibilla which is for when she's combined with the Maid card, it's a reference to the Visit card in the ZWK.

 

I think it's likely the playing card insets were added so it could be used with popular cartomancy methods of the era. The majority of the target audience would be playing card readers, so it makes sense to include them to entice them into buying it.

 

43 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Then again, there are so many little local methods there that it would confuse the issue. Every region plays different games, with different numbers of cards removed from the deck. And where there's a game, there's a reading method. Bolognese, Premiera, Sicilian, etc....take your pick.

Add to this that methods are usually guarded and learned through word of mouth it becomes very tricky to research. There's only one book on using the Tarocco Siciliano, and even then that's newly published. Even less is written for the Siciliane regional cards (unless you're content with betway casino blog posts on cartomancy 🤣).

 

There's also the fact that regional decks were brought to (central and southern) Italy by the Spanish. These decks share a lot of similarities. So did the Spanish also inspire their cartomancy? There's a lot to get confused by!

 

[katrinka]

2 hours ago, akiva said:

According to Etienne the Italian Sibilla is the love child of Kipper and the Zigeuner Wahrsagekarten being smushed together. Which I totally agree with, as there's so many cards that overlap.

 

All well and good, but the Kipperkarten were first published in 1890. Vera Sibilla appeared no later than 1880. Possibly as early as 1850. Venturi mentions an Austrian deck published around 1805 by Ignaz Eber, a 32 card deck that has images in common with both Sibilla and Bohemian cards:

 

 

It makes sense, northern Italy was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. So even though Venturi does not cite sources - does Etienne? I suspect not, that's a major issue with card history. It's virtually always a single chapter in a book devoted to card meanings, spreads (ack!) etc. You'd think it would get its own book! But yes, Bohemian cards are a forerunner of Sibilla. Kipperkarten are not.

And some card images are just universal - think about it, if you were going to design a deck, you'd draw from your own experiences: work, home, illness, money, etc. Even if you've never seen any of these decks, your deck would have things in common with them.

 

2 hours ago, akiva said:

I think it's likely the playing card insets were added so it could be used with popular cartomancy methods of the era. The majority of the target audience would be playing card readers, so it makes sense to include them to entice them into buying it.

 

It's one of those chicken and the egg things. It's just as likely the target buyers were people who wanted the crutch that illustrations provide.  There's always a market for "easy" cards, decks with pictures, keywords, and/or verses. They still require a metric f***tonne of study and practice, but the buyer doesn't know that. They believe the "Learn to read Tarot/playing cards/whatever in one week!"

This isn't a hill I choose to die on. The fact is that card history is just poorly documented. Lots of anecdotal "I saw a deck..." "My grandmother's deck..." etc.  It's like the carnival midway. Fun, entertaining, and total BS.

 

3 hours ago, akiva said:

There's also the fact that regional decks were brought to (central and southern) Italy by the Spanish. These decks share a lot of similarities. So did the Spanish also inspire their cartomancy? There's a lot to get confused by!

You can definitely see the spanish influence in the Italian decks. It's like music that way, everything rubs off on everything else.
 

3 hours ago, akiva said:

Add to this that methods are usually guarded and learned through word of mouth it becomes very tricky to research. There's only one book on using the Tarocco Siciliano, and even then that's newly published.

This one?
https://www.amazon.com/Book-9788892724334-author/dp/8892724339?crid=2DMEX2ZUU3Y65&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.C_4kIAft5vwcBhj_oiNUJBzyffX1TCu7ZiLEYYplTi5KjMGW92OfFaCRXn30Fg_236DsxLcTO9RvawlXpf6363GsS2kxOdi5eWPHMjMv075ZxuUHXNcmFBdyGiArvRmCsxcqG9z7PVZSxRDdxkCyoq9BMVeDWp5VcqVR8nJN5GyA34NvQBtsSM7cCAfMIagFvZt4JpuYXDAvHma_r4j2r2CnuIeE-x2lzukpcufcMbqLOm2AReV_70jgmTyUsAhVHzEnJW5K5-2cnilD_l8rKhj8YRu4H5rSpOij5KsCkcnxvfoMyoqOI5fhHKgkcsreuhss3ElxqDDJh42L-iQ2cxWl2lxc6frKiAzMovRMK-gh_WhAYR6AvNO9w8n53fXdI9GaybeNDk03hP2Xc_Xf8PSxoeYbadmWlL4j1pmyJiziDVTgcrnIhbsFJkGUhyqY.1S8AtMmvW5UFpfmVs_qpcQPGwnskvgSiTGtFI3NVh2M&dib_tag=se&keywords=Tarocco+Siciliano&qid=1738698446&sprefix=tarocco+siciliano+%2Caps%2C856&sr=8-18

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Scandinavianhermit]

Traditionelle Wahrsagekarten are descended from a 36 card cartomancy deck with German suites* published by Industrie Comptoir in Leipzig, Kingdom of Saxony, 1818. At some point along the way, the suite marks disappeared from the cards. 

 

* Hearts, Bells, Leaves and Acorns.

[akiva]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

All well and good, but the Kipperkarten were first published in 1890. Vera Sibilla appeared no later than 1880. Possibly as early as 1850. Venturi mentions an Austrian deck published around 1805 by Ignaz Eber, a 32 card deck that has images in common with both Sibilla and Bohemian cards:

That's interesting, I have no idea why he said what he said then 😂 but here's the quote:

 

"At this point I would like to open a small historical parenthesis. I have always said that the True Sibyl deck is a hybrid deck that was born more than anything, apart from the typical symbolism of French cards, it was born from the fusion, from the adaptation of two distinct decks of cards, the kipper cards and the so-called g*psy Sibyls..."

 

I guess it's just a belief of his? 😅

 

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

So even though Venturi does not cite sources - does Etienne? I suspect not, that's a major issue with card history.

From memory I don't think he does. 

 

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

This one?

Yeah that's the one, I found the meanings to be a bit negative and not fully fleshed out. Though its been a while since I read it. Also it was another "my grandmother read the cards" story too, so make of that what you will!

 

1 hour ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

Traditionelle Wahrsagekarten are descended from a 36 card cartomancy deck with German suites* published by Industrie Comptoir in Leipzig, Kingdom of Saxony, 1818.

https://www.wopc.co.uk/germany/industrie-comptoir/fortune-telling-deck is that this one? 

 

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

Traditionelle Wahrsagekarten

 

They finally changed the name! Good. 💖

 

1 hour ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

are descended from a 36 card cartomancy deck with German suites* published by Industrie Comptoir in Leipzig, Kingdom of Saxony, 1818. At some point along the way, the suite marks disappeared from the cards. 

Yes, it certainly seems to be related. 1818 deck

Here's another similar deck and an uncolored sheet. The pattern must have been popular at the time. These's lots to untangle here.

[katrinka]

4 hours ago, akiva said:

I guess it's just a belief of his? 😅

Not all readers are historians.
 

4 hours ago, akiva said:

Yeah that's the one, I found the meanings to be a bit negative and not fully fleshed out.

I'll have to grab a copy. As we know from Tarot books, there's entirely too much fleshing out these days. MQS has this to say:
"The Bologna Tarot is typically read in large spreads. This is because each card has very simple meanings, so one cannot spend their time musing on them at length as often happens in contemporary tarot practice. The Bologna Tarot is closer to the Sibilla or to playing cards or Lenormand in this sense (or even to how regular tarot readings used to be)."

Truth be told, I like the "cut to the chase" mentality one encounters in Italian cartomancy. It's refreshing. It's one thing to note, say, that the RWS QP has a rabbit on it. It's something else to blather on and on about rabbits, what rabbits mean in various contexts that have nothing to do with RWS, and then write a dissertation on one's personal thoughts and feelings concerning rabbits. We DON'T CARE. We just want to read the cards!

And hey, I'm in the US. "A bit negative" sounds much nicer than what I'm seeing in the news. <laughs in horrormirth>

 

4 hours ago, akiva said:

is that this one? 

 

Great minds, etc. 🥸

 

Edited February 5 by katrinka

[Scandinavianhermit]

2 hours ago, akiva said:

 

https://www.wopc.co.uk/germany/industrie-comptoir/fortune-telling-deck is that this one? 

It is.

 

2 hours ago, katrinka said:

 

They finally changed the name! Good. 💖

My reaction, too. 

 

[Misterei]

@akiva and @Scandinavianhermit. Thanks for the resources on Russian cartomancy. I got this deck a few years ago [for about 1/3 the price. Inflation!]. It's interesting to note it comes in 36 or 55 card decks. I've read with it -- not knowing what I'm doing -- just using Tarot meanings more or less. This is somewhat referencing the original post on the the other thread @KalynkaFilly  who's babushka read cards. This Palekh style first appeared in 1921 according to Google AI. Obviously they had regular cards before this style, but perhaps it was popular in Grandma's time [???]

 

 

I'm considering buying a Lo Scarabeo Traditional Italian from their Old Cartomancy line. Its described as 40 cards deck. But one thing holds me back -- what spreads to use with it? 

 

So, @akiva @katrinka and anyone else who knows historic styles: What do you think of this deck and what type of spread/s would you use with it? It's not Tarocchino Bolognese as there are no triunfi suit. It's basically a playing card deck.

 

[akiva]

20 hours ago, katrinka said:

Truth be told, I like the "cut to the chase" mentality one encounters in Italian cartomancy. It's refreshing. It's one thing to note, say, that the RWS QP has a rabbit on it. It's something else to blather on and on about rabbits, what rabbits mean in various contexts that have nothing to do with RWS, and then write a dissertation on one's personal thoughts and feelings concerning rabbits. We DON'T CARE. We just want to read the cards!

This is why I ended up reading piquet more than anything else. Each card has like 3 or 4 keywords and that's it. No fluff. I do use TdM the same way, but 32/36 cards is enough for most of life's issues imo. 

 

20 hours ago, katrinka said:

And hey, I'm in the US. "A bit negative" sounds much nicer than what I'm seeing in the news. <laughs in horrormirth>

They kind of echo some of the regional card meanings, and there's definitely a numerical system at play, particularly with the 6's and 8's.

 

I'm sure whatever the Tarocco Siciliano throws at you will be better than what's in the news 😵

[akiva]

27 minutes ago, Misterei said:

Thanks for the resources on Russian cartomancy. I got this deck a few years ago [for about 1/3 the price. Inflation!]. It's interesting to note it comes in 36 or 55 card decks. I've read with it -- not knowing what I'm doing -- just using Tarot meanings more or less.

No problem! I love those cards, I've been meaning to get a set and there's a vintage pack listed on Ebay... 😆

 

28 minutes ago, Misterei said:

I'm considering buying a Lo Scarabeo Traditional Italian from their Old Cartomancy line. Its described as 40 cards deck. But one thing holds me back -- what spreads to use with it? 

 

So, @akiva @katrinka and anyone else who knows historic styles: What do you think of this deck and what type of spread/s would you use with it? It's not Tarocchino Bolognese as there are no triunfi suit. It's basically a playing card deck.

Personally I find them too big:

 

On top of the LS deck is a Dal Negro Napoletane card, they're a fraction of the size but are definitely bolder in colour. The antique vibe of the LS cards are definitely nicer, just wish they were smaller personally. 

 

As for spreads they're commonly read in lines of 3/5/7, GTs of 4 x 10, Triage en Croix style cross spreads are also common. There's a method called "method of 2" which utilises pairs of cards, and a method that uses 25 or 26 cards and involves lots of counting (I never learnt that one 😄)

[katrinka]

Palekh is a painting technique that uses brightly colored tempera paint over a black background. It's commonly seen on things like trinket boxes. That deck is done in the Palekh style, but there's no Palekh card reading method or any of that. I'd find a nice Palekh box for that deck to live in, though.

 

19 minutes ago, Misterei said:

What do you think of this deck and what type of spread/s would you use with it? It's not Tarocchino Bolognese as there are no triunfi suit. It's basically a playing card deck.

It does look Italian. With 40 cards, it's probably a Piacentine type deck used for games like Scopa. Just read it the same way you would read any stripped playing card deck and use whatever spreads you normally use: lines, crosses, boxes, tableaus.

[katrinka]

38 minutes ago, akiva said:

This is why I ended up reading piquet more than anything else. Each card has like 3 or 4 keywords and that's it. No fluff. I do use TdM the same way, but 32/36 cards is enough for most of life's issues imo. 

It really is. You don't even need reversals. Whether or not a card is "ill starred" is all in the neighboring cards.
 

41 minutes ago, akiva said:

They kind of echo some of the regional card meanings, and there's definitely a numerical system at play, particularly with the 6's and 8's.

That's good to know. Delivery is looking like the end of this month or sometime next month, so I have a good while to look forward to it. Before this is over I'll be stuck to the window waiting for the mail carrier like one of those old Garfields:


 

 

51 minutes ago, akiva said:

I'm sure whatever the Tarocco Siciliano throws at you will be better than what's in the news 😵

I have a hunch that Felon Muskrat comes to no good. Reading on that might actually be encouraging. There's nothing wrong with a little schadenfreude every now and then.
 

38 minutes ago, akiva said:

On top of the LS deck is a Dal Negro Napoletane card, they're a fraction of the size but are definitely bolder in colour. The antique vibe of the LS cards are definitely nicer, just wish they were smaller personally. 

Smaller is always better unless you have a humongous table that you don't use for anything. Space is at a premium for most of us these days. I don't understand why they keep making so many decks the size of manhole covers. They claim it's so people can "see the details." But a lot of us have good close vision and those who don't have things like corrective lenses and magnifying glasses.

And I'm actually starting to prefer the vibrancy of the Dal Negro and Modiano decks. And I totally intend to acquire a Piacentine deck just for the cherub with the curved sword and this Ace of Batons:

 

Everything is so drabby and greige these days. These Italian cards stick it to da man! 🤣

[Misterei]

9 hours ago, katrinka said:

Palekh is a painting technique that uses brightly colored tempera paint over a black background ... That deck is done in the Palekh style, but there's no Palekh card reading method or any of that.

Yes. The painting style originated in the town of Palekh ... why the cards are called that [according to description]. I wasn't trying to imply it was a reading style.

 

The deck published in 1921 which made me wonder what cards might have been popular and *on trend* for the 1920s??? The original post was wondering what type of deck the grandma might have used. I suppose it's off topic -- my comment was about a regional deck rather than a regional reading style.

9 hours ago, katrinka said:

It does look Italian. With 40 cards, it's probably a Piacentine type deck used for games like Scopa. Just read it the same way you would read any stripped playing card deck and use whatever spreads you normally use: lines, crosses, boxes, tableaus.

Piacentine looks right. So many different decks and reading styles in Italy!

 

One of the links earlier in this thread led to a Grand Tableau [Bedsheet] with a Sicilian deck as a traditional method for that deck. Which made me wonder if its a Piacentine deck ... were any particular spreads commonly used with that style of deck.

9 hours ago, akiva said:

Personally I find them too big:

Ugh! Good point. This might be a deal breaker for me. 🙄

9 hours ago, akiva said:

As for spreads they're commonly read in lines of 3/5/7, GTs of 4 x 10, Triage en Croix style cross spreads are also common. There's a method called "method of 2" which utilises pairs of cards, and a method that uses 25 or 26 cards and involves lots of counting (I never learnt that one 😄)

I think of Tirage en Croix as needing the trumps??? But I think you must be speaking of those 1800s cross shaped spreads you've shared with me in past.

 

I learnt from my friend who's 86 a complex method of laying a tableau and then counting 7s to create a second circular spread . I have notes but i've never actually done it without her. You start with the tableau and read that by looking for the significator and timing card/s. Then you count 7s from the personal significator. Then create the second circular spread from those cards and read that, too.

 

She stripped her deck to 28 cards and it was 7x4 if I remember correctly. Possibly a Dutch method but she didn't know. It was just a thing she learnt as a girl.

 

I love Game of the Hand with my Tarocchi decks, and feel quite at a loss with no triunfi. It's held me back from reading playing cards. I have yet to find the *right* spread/s for playing cards.

Edited February 6 by Misterei

[Misterei]

7 hours ago, katrinka said:

Smaller is always better ... I don't understand why they keep making so many decks the size of manhole covers. 

Yep. WHY??? The easy answer would be to make a small product larger so it attracts attention on the display shelf of a store. But everyone buys stuff online these days so this thinking seems outmoded.

7 hours ago, katrinka said:

And I'm actually starting to prefer the vibrancy of the Dal Negro and Modiano decks. And I totally intend to acquire a Piacentine deck just for the cherub with the curved sword and this Ace of Batons: ... Everything is so drabby and greige these days.

I appreciate the subtle and subdued look of the "vintage revival" decks. Any deck with a bright primary color scheme brings back the PTS of my first 15-20 years of nothing but the plaid back RWS. Reading that deck was a visual assault I endured for years. I fear that Dal Negro would feel the same.

 

Whatever spread I use, there's a moment of taking-in the full spread with eyes out of focus. Bright harsh colors are difficult to absorb this way [for me]. Muted colors or saturated colors with more complexity are easier to take in. My beloved Bologna tarocchi has this sort of palette.  Complex and subtle. Not garish primaries. Chacun à son goût.

[katrinka]

6 hours ago, Misterei said:

Any deck with a bright primary color scheme brings back the PTS of my first 15-20 years of nothing but the plaid back RWS. Reading that deck was a visual assault I endured for years.

It was the yellow that put me off of that one. Humongous swaths of screaming loud chrome yellow like staring at the noonday sun, razoring into the brain to plant the seeds of 1000 cluster headaches.



I'd like to add that Pam didn't color the images, from what I gather she just did line drawings and it was the publisher who added color. The other colors are actually kind of drab. Here's a plaid back High Priestess next to a University Books one.

 

I have a strong preference for the deeper blues and greens. That USG deck is a font deck, too. 🤮 Sometimes I think Stuart Kaplan hated us all.

My first deck was a University Books deck, I had it about 10 years and lost it in a move. I tried to like the USG decks, I really did. But those yellows were unbearable. I finally went on ebay and got a University Books deck from a flipper. I like the Albano, too. People are always saying the Albano is 60's psychedelia but they miss the point. Frankie Albano colored the Majors according to B.O.T.A. instructions, and carried that into the Minors. It wasn't an attempt to create anything “psychedelic”. It's not a Trippin' Waite or any of that.

I like color. I just can't do plaid back USG screeching yellow.
 

7 hours ago, Misterei said:

I think of Tirage en Croix as needing the trumps???

That one gets adapted six ways from Sunday. Chanah used to do a Couples Spread with two crosses - with Lenormand.
 

Edited February 6 by katrinka

[Scandinavianhermit]

7 hours ago, katrinka said:

 Sometimes I think Stuart Kaplan hated us all.

It might have been the strange fashion of the 1970s, that cause all those exaggerated colour schemes. The deck Goulinat drew under instruction of Papus in the early 1900s was disfigured by a very 1970s colour scheme. It's impossible to discern Goulinat's very fine lines in that one.

 

[akiva]

17 hours ago, katrinka said:

It really is. You don't even need reversals. Whether or not a card is "ill starred" is all in the neighboring cards.

Exactly, this is why I picked Sepherial's meanings as a base for my piquet and enhanced it with Cicely Kent's book. I think Sepherials cartomancy is what inspired Minetta's, Charles Platt's and at least part of Rapoza's piquet meanings. Read side by side they're all basically the same, just with added reversals, and slight word changes.

 

17 hours ago, katrinka said:

I have a hunch that Felon Muskrat comes to no good. Reading on that might actually be encouraging. There's nothing wrong with a little schadenfreude every now and then.

Ooh will you share your reading about the rotten Melon Husk on your blog? That will make for an interesting read.

 

17 hours ago, katrinka said:

And I'm actually starting to prefer the vibrancy of the Dal Negro and Modiano decks. And I totally intend to acquire a Piacentine deck just for the cherub with the curved sword and this Ace of Batons:

 

Everything is so drabby and greige these days. These Italian cards stick it to da man! 🤣

That ace is so nice! Here's a few cards from the Trentine set by Dal Negro (I find their cards better quality stock than Modiano):

 

Even though the courts look stoic af they're so colourful! The knights rainbow ombre is something you dont see everyday. 😄

This deck has my favourite Ace of Coins and Batons too. Also it's one of the only regional packs that comes with a full 52 card variant. Just wish they'd print an edition with matching Triumphs to go with it. 

[akiva]

9 hours ago, Misterei said:

Ugh! Good point. This might be a deal breaker for me. 🙄

Go with Modiano or Dal Negro, they're perfect for the palm! 😄

 

9 hours ago, Misterei said:

I think of Tirage en Croix as needing the trumps??? But I think you must be speaking of those 1800s cross shaped spreads you've shared with me in past.

No just a standard 5 card cross spread. It's not 'traditional' afaik, but when a spread works, it works imo. If I'm remembering rightly you use dice for the Triage en Croix? As it's a 40 card deck you could roll 2 d20's then count through the deck to the card for each position?

 

9 hours ago, Misterei said:

I learnt from my friend who's 86 a complex method of laying a tableau and then counting 7s to create a second circular spread . I have notes but i've never actually done it without her. You start with the tableau and read that by looking for the significator and timing card/s. Then you count 7s from the personal significator. Then create the second circular spread from those cards and read that, too.

That sounds really interesting. Was this for tarot?

 

It's seems similar to the Italian method, except the deck is reduced to 25 or 26, all the cards are laid out and you count 7's in a serpentine pattern so that every card is read in a specific sequence. If you land on a card twice you've made an error. Here's a run down of how to do it. 

 

This is an Italian video on the "Method of 2", auto translate is available for it. This is a lot simpler than the 25 card method, and more fun imo. It answers yes/no questions, but it's only good for about (at max) a week in the future. Some methods for some reason are limited on how far they can predict. Much like the Chien de Pique method in French cartomancy, which is apparently meant to be used for a 48 hour prediction. 

 

9 hours ago, Misterei said:

I love Game of the Hand with my Tarocchi decks, and feel quite at a loss with no triunfi. It's held me back from reading playing cards. I have yet to find the *right* spread/s for playing cards.

What is it about not having the Triumphs that holds you back? Have you tried reading with just the minors? It's all the same really! 😄

 

I remember you saying that you struggled with reduced decks because it throws off the number order (or something to that effect). The easiest way to visualise piquet numerically is 7=1, 8=2, 9=3 and 10=4. I've been able to read off the fly like that using suit meanings. Though I prefer a good keyword list 😂

[Misterei]

3 hours ago, akiva said:

Go with Modiano or Dal Negro, they're perfect for the palm! 😄

If only the colors were more subtle. Modiano has a deck I lust after. The Alan Tarot. But it seems only available on Amazon Italy. Or for outrageous sums on ebay for a vintage original. I just want the cheap Modiano version since it isn't even a proper Tarot. The triunfi are all advertsing for a shipping company [?!] so one could only use it as a playing-card deck.

3 hours ago, akiva said:

No just a standard 5 card cross spread. It's not 'traditional' afaik, but when a spread works, it works imo. If I'm remembering rightly you use dice for the Triage en Croix? As it's a 40 card deck you could roll 2 d20's then count through the deck to the card for each position?

I decided against purchase that 40 card deck [thank you for the DE enable!]. I don't need another large deck that's hard to shuffle. I will confine my playing card experiments to that $6 Palekh deck 😉. I also had a Russian grandmother, but she didn't read cards afaik. 

 

When rolling multiple dice there's always the question: How to roll a 1? With 2 dice you'll always get a 2 or above. I invent various workarounds to account for this. Anyway, not a regional style. Just my own whimsy.

3 hours ago, akiva said:

That sounds really interesting. Was this for tarot?

Playing cards. I've looked up my notes:

Annine's Possibly Dutch method from the 1940s-50s

Strip the deck to 28 cards [only aces, 8,9,10, and courts]

lay in a 7x4 tableau

Taking the sample question of a Woman asking about her trip: a Queen is the woman and 10 clubs is the travel.

Count from the Queen to the 10 clubs. Or if the question was about her business, count from the Queen to Ace diamonds.

And ... now my notes get fuzzy. I need to visit with her and review again. But here is a picture of the Tableau and how cards were taken from the tableau to create a circle of 7 cards.

 

3 hours ago, akiva said:

What is it about not having the Triumphs that holds you back? Have you tried reading with just the minors? It's all the same really! 😄

Both my go-to spreads for historic tarots separate the trumps from the minors. 

 

Tirage en Croix [Oswald Wirth version circa 1920s which he learnt from Joséphin Péladan] is trumps only but you can optionally draw minors to clarify.

 

Game of the Hand likewise depends on drawing Trumps for certain positions and suit cards for other positions. Then using theosophical addition to arrive at a number for the final trump. Theosophical addition likewise can be used with the above Tirage en Croix rather than drawing the final card.

 

The practice of selecting the final trump with addition of the other trumps is lost if there are no trumps. 😒 The stripped decks lose numbers which completely confused me!

 

I found I understood Annine's method, tho. In her method 8s are the lowest or smallest form of an activity, 9s are more developed, and 10 is the strongest. For clubs, 8 might be a short errand. 9 might be a short trip. 10 is a long journey. Diamonds 8 is a small amount of money, 9 a medium amount, and 10 a large amount. Aces are separate from this scheme as they are more like significator cards for your topic. Diamons=money, Spades=legal or sickness, Hearts=love, Clubs-travel or social. I didn't miss the 2,3,4,5,6,7 as her method gave me an alternative number symbolism.

 

Now I must call her and arrange a visit to really understand how she counted as my notes don't explain it. I'll post a better write-up when I've gotten my notes more complete.

Edited February 6 by Misterei

[katrinka]

10 hours ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

It might have been the strange fashion of the 1970s, that cause all those exaggerated colour schemes. The deck Goulinat drew under instruction of Papus in the early 1900s was disfigured by a very 1970s colour scheme. It's impossible to discern Goulinat's very fine lines in that one.

 

This one?
Admittedly it's not much to look at. But I wouldn't call it 1970's. The 70's palette was limited to mostly browns, oranges, and yellows with a little bile green. Simply hideous, IMO.

Edited February 6 by katrinka