alethian Posted February 19 Posted February 19 5 of Sword of Thoth deck says "Defeat". RWS deck has image of a guy grinning at his opponents retreating. I get confused when this card comes up. Does it mean I defeated my opponent? Or did my opponent defeated me? Is it positive or negative card? How do you make of this card, when shows up in the readings?
Barleywine Posted February 19 Posted February 19 I've always thought this was a case of Pamela Colman Smith missing the Golden Dawn's point (perhaps purposely), as she did with a few other cards like the 6 of Cups and 6 of Pentacles. The nature of the number Five is disruptive and the Swords are harsh, so I would ignore appearances and just read it as "Defeat" for the querent. I once had some fun with this by saying that the two obviously vanquished foes are going to retreat down the road, hide behind a rock, and ambush the victor when he walks by, thus inflicting delayed defeat upon him.
RunningWild Posted February 19 Posted February 19 I always thought it showed both sides. There is no defeat without someone or something else being the victor. In a spread and depending on the focus of the reading will tell you which side you or the querent falls on.
dancing_moon Posted February 19 Posted February 19 (edited) For me, 5 of Swords is always the querent's defeat. Even if it looks like a victory, it's a Pyrrhic one, or it's about to turn sour. Waite's meanings for the card are very telling: Quote Degradation, destruction, revocation, infamy, dishonour, loss, with the variants and analogues of these. The victory card is actually 6 of Wands. Edited February 19 by dancing_moon
JoyousGirl Posted February 19 Posted February 19 You win some, you lose some. This isn't the winning feeling.
RunningWild Posted February 19 Posted February 19 1 hour ago, dancing_moon said: Even if it looks like a victory, it's a Pyrrhic one, or it's about to turn sour. 28 minutes ago, JoyousGirl said: You win some, you lose some. This isn't the winning feeling. I agree with both of these, but again, it’s going to depend on the question, the spread (if there is one), and the querent. Even IF it’s a Pyrrhic victory, it’s still a victory of sorts. I’m not saying anyone is going out and celebrating which I’d need to see the six of wands for.
DanielJUK Posted February 20 Posted February 20 I'm going to only talk about the RWS card and it's RWS style versions with the people on the card. When this card comes up in a reading, I always first think, which person represents the reader here (my querent or who they want me reading for or for me, in a self reading)? Are they the person in the front or one of the people behind? The "winner" or the defeated? It makes a difference in the reading and in the message. The person in front is the winner but it is commonly seen as a pyrrhic victory (like @FindYourSovereignty said) or a hollow victory. They are grinning away, they have defeated the others, that smirk as they turn their head to the others behind. The others look away so we cannot see their faces and one is crying with his head in his hands. Their weapons (swords) lay on the floor as they are defeated. The front guy is collecting all the swords up, clearing up after the fight. Is he doing it in an altruistic way, tidying the land or is he taking all the swords in a dominating way, he will soon hold all the swords? There is a Machiavellian nature to him, win at all costs, did he win this fight in a fair way or was he cunning and sneaky in his win? It doesn't seem like a fair fight somehow. The people in the back, they are defeated and upset. Maybe they didn't see this outcome happening? Perhaps they should have been careful about getting into this and picking a battle they could not win. Maybe this is a lesson to learn for the future, how can they win next time, have better training and strategy? This is like one of those boxing or martial arts matches where someone loses, but that's the motivation to get better and win the next one. With the swords and ideas and opinions, I think this card can often be about debating and conversation (not a physical sword battle). Debating is a real skill and there is a technique to it, like you make your points and arguments and you back it up, you qualify your statements. I think a lot of modern debate has changed from that, proving your point, debating ideas. This card can be about winning that debate, maybe with charisma and personal skills or maybe knowing how to win your arguments. That is a skill that is something that can improve. You have to prepare, research the points and strengthen your skills before a debate, just like a physical fight. This card for me, often points to finding common ground and a mutual place as a solution. If you have some friends and family over, you have to be careful about where the conversation goes, like in polite company there are often some controversial subjects that you don't go into. That old saying, never talk about politics, religion or money. Some subjects you shouldn't go into at the wrong time or place. I have been at a party where an argument over a subject took off and someone wouldn't stop arguing their side and it ruined the mood for everyone in the room. This was someone's birthday party, it wasn't the place for this discussion. This is like board games or gaming with friends when someone is so competitive it becomes miserable or keeps cheating to make sure they win. This is like doing sports or outdoor activities with friends and one person is taking it to an Olympic level, where is the mutual fun in that? Sometimes you find a common ground, to have a good time with the other people, a compromise. I feel with this card that the guy defeated the others but now has lost 2 good friends in life, so it isn't really a win in the end. Everyone loses, he won but has no one to share his win with. There are other meanings for this card of course as well and sometimes this card is about standing up for yourself. Make sure you have evidence or can back up and argue your case. I have had this card come up for divorces and legal fights, it's important to have representation and evidence to defend yourself. In love readings, this card can represent a lot of conflict, it's important to listen to what each other has to say. This is one of the cards where getting a mediator or a mutual friend between the two sides might be helpful, both sides might need to accept some responsibility.
FindYourSovereignty Posted February 22 Posted February 22 On 2/20/2025 at 6:56 AM, DanielJUK said: The person in front is the winner but it is commonly seen as a pyrrhic victory (like @FindYourSovereignty said) or a hollow victory Actually this valuable insight was shared by amazing @dancing_moon who described this very well, imho. 😊
Aeon418 Posted February 22 Posted February 22 On 2/19/2025 at 7:04 PM, alethian said: 5 of Sword of Thoth deck says "Defeat". RWS deck has image of a guy grinning at his opponents retreating. I get confused when this card comes up. I'm not surprised he's grinning. His opponents (who represent the very pacifistic Venus in Aquarius) don't want to stand their ground and fight. Out of weakness they allow the bully to take it all away from them. In such a situation defeat is inevitable. Another common interpretation is "intellect weakened by sentiment." Sometimes it's easy to see the necessary course of action, but having the heart to do it is another thing entirely. Unfortunately, this enfeebled state of mind has the capacity to perpetuate a negative situation. Doing what is needed is not always the "nice" thing to do.
Chariot Posted February 22 Posted February 22 (edited) The 5 of Swords is a very interesting card. In the RWS version, and many others, the conflict seems to have been rather bloodless—nobody seems to be physically injured. In the RWS version, however, the smirk on the winner's face is quite striking. He has 'won'—but he is also gloating, which adds to the despair and probably helpless anger of whoever he has defeated. Whether he won fairly or not isn't really in the RWS card; it's his attitude afterwards that I think is the point of the card. If the querent is the winner, perhaps they are gloating about the victory or rubbing it in? Never letting go of it to let their opponents recover? It may have been a fair fight, but the winner needs to perhaps cultivate a bit of compassion and humility? If the querent is the loser, they are stuck. They should try to swallow pride and accept they've lost—and move on. This RWS card is more about attitude than victory or defeat, in my opinion. However, other RWS systems portray the card a bit differently. The first card is from Ciro Marchetti's Tarot Grand Luxe deck. In this depiction, the man with the swords has definitely won. I suspect he is not the querent here, as he is looking straight at us, and seems to mean for us to surrender NOW. I think surrender is probably what the querent should do, or is expected to do. Again, there isn't any blood or suggestion of injury, but this fellow means business. I don't see 'fighting on' as an option with this card. The second card is from Poppy Palin's The Everyday Enchantment Tarot. Despite all the cutlery, this isn't a swordfight; it's a restaurant kitchen. The chef is obviously angry and is giving the employee she faces quite a lecture. From the equally angry expression on the face of the background chef, the person receiving the lecture probably deserves it. Again, there is the feeling of accepting defeat—and in this case, promising to do better in future and NOT burn the onions next time OR ELSE.... The third card, however, is totally scary. It's from the Anna KTarot, and as she says in her booklet, 'there is nothing good about this card.' (She doesn't do reversals, so I can see what she means.) This is defeat that brings destruction and death and abject surrender and fear. And the victor doesn't look like the sort to show mercy. I don't think I ever want to get this card in a reading! Yikes. And so many of her cards are very gentle and kind ...this one is a bit of a shock. Lots of nuances in each of these cards, and certainly a lot of differences between decks. An interesting card indeed. Edited February 22 by Chariot
alethian Posted February 22 Author Posted February 22 (edited) 2 hours ago, Aeon418 said: I'm not surprised he's grinning. His opponents (who represent the very pacifistic Venus in Aquarius) don't want to stand their ground and fight. Out of weakness they allow the bully to take it all away from them. In such a situation defeat is inevitable. Another common interpretation is "intellect weakened by sentiment." Sometimes it's easy to see the necessary course of action, but having the heart to do it is another thing entirely. Unfortunately, this enfeebled state of mind has the capacity to perpetuate a negative situation. Doing what is needed is not always the "nice" thing to do. If I defeated the opponent in the battle, and seeing them retreating, then I would be grinning with smug. But when the card shows up, I am not sue if it is me who won, or if it is the opponent who won. That was the confusing point. Edited February 22 by alethian
alethian Posted February 22 Author Posted February 22 (edited) 2 hours ago, Chariot said: The 5 of Swords is a very interesting card. In the RWS version, and many others, the conflict seems to have been rather bloodless—nobody seems to be physically injured. In the RWS version, however, the smirk on the winner's face is quite striking. He has 'won'—but he is also gloating, which adds to the despair and probably helpless anger of whoever he has defeated. Whether he won fairly or not isn't really in the RWS card; it's his attitude afterwards that I think is the point of the card. If the querent is the winner, perhaps they are gloating about the victory or rubbing it in? Never letting go of it to let their opponents recover? It may have been a fair fight, but the winner needs to perhaps cultivate a bit of compassion and humility? If the querent is the loser, they are stuck. They should try to swallow pride and accept they've lost—and move on. This RWS card is more about attitude than victory or defeat, in my opinion. However, other RWS systems portray the card a bit differently. The first card is from Ciro Marchetti's Tarot Grand Luxe deck. In this depiction, the man with the swords has definitely won. I suspect he is not the querent here, as he is looking straight at us, and seems to mean for us to surrender NOW. I think surrender is probably what the querent should do, or is expected to do. Again, there isn't any blood or suggestion of injury, but this fellow means business. I don't see 'fighting on' as an option with this card. The second card is from Poppy Palin's The Everyday Enchantment Tarot. Despite all the cutlery, this isn't a swordfight; it's a restaurant kitchen. The chef is obviously angry and is giving the employee she faces quite a lecture. From the equally angry expression on the face of the background chef, the person receiving the lecture probably deserves it. Again, there is the feeling of accepting defeat—and in this case, promising to do better in future and NOT burn the onions next time OR ELSE.... The third card, however, is totally scary. It's from the Anna KTarot, and as she says in her booklet, 'there is nothing good about this card.' (She doesn't do reversals, so I can see what she means.) This is defeat that brings destruction and death and abject surrender and fear. And the victor doesn't look like the sort to show mercy. I don't think I ever want to get this card in a reading! Yikes. And so many of her cards are very gentle and kind ...this one is a bit of a shock. Lots of nuances in each of these cards, and certainly a lot of differences between decks. An interesting card indeed. Sword can represent mentality, and 5 of swords could signify mental battle with someone. It could even involve verbal arguments. These days no one really fights their opponents with swords, unless it is in the real war fields. If it were readings on the real war battles, then it would be a lot more sophisticated weapons they would use rather than swords in this day and age. But no, we are not talking about physical battle here. It would be more likely to be the case of legal or mental battles involving stress and monetary gains. Edited February 22 by alethian
JoyousGirl Posted February 23 Posted February 23 (edited) 11 hours ago, alethian said: If I defeated the opponent in the battle, and seeing them retreating, then I would be grinning with smug. But when the card shows up, I am not sue if it is me who won, or if it is the opponent who won. That was the confusing point. If you think about the overall theme of feelings - these swords indicate a bit of cruelty in the mind of the 'winner' - that may help to know about the "who" is represented in the winning/losing side of things. What's your internal dialogue about this? For example, is it "I'll make that bastard pay and grind him underfoot and spit in his face when I'm done and I've won". Then there's variations of that such as lying to get a promotion etc or getting someone else to take the blame. There's enough swords for everyone, but the mental state of the guy who's taken them or how he's taken them seems nasty - there's spikiness and selfishness to his win. So, when you're thinking of who won when this card comes up - who is the person that has a mental process or communication that is in a nasty way, the unfair and spiteful sort of feelings. Is he prepared to destroy friendships, break laws etc? He looks smug because he got what he wanted, yes, that's one thing. But how did he get it? What was he prepared to do? Integrity doesn't seem implied. Is that you in this situation, or someone else? There's the losers, too of course. Are you giving up or feeling like giving up? Is there reason to feel unfairness has been dealt? Do you not want to play someone's game? That's what this also seems to be, leaving shitty behaviour and mindf*&% to someone else. You're above that (or are you?). I guess the surrounding cards would tell you more. Look at all the cards together to try and find that theme of action, colour, desolation or just walking away. Of course, waiting to see the outcome of the question the card is answering is handy, too. Edited February 23 by JoyousGirl
Aeon418 Posted February 23 Posted February 23 15 hours ago, alethian said: If I defeated the opponent in the battle, and seeing them retreating, then I would be grinning with smug. But when the card shows up, I am not sue if it is me who won, or if it is the opponent who won. That was the confusing point. I can't tell you how to interpret a card in the context of a specific reading. But in general the 5 of Swords indicates Defeat through weakness, rather than an excess of strength. The question and the card's placement within a reading should provide the necessary context for interpretation. The 5 of Swords is one of three cards in the Thoth deck that shows the inverted pentagram. While viewing the symbol there can arise an instinctive feeling of wanting to turn the symbol around. (I'm not talking about reversed cards here) The appearance of any of the 5's prompts me to think about alignment with the Mars force. Am I, or the querent, out of alignment with it and experiencing a tough time because of it. The typical reaction to the Mars force is Fear. This is the Mars force turned inwards in an act of self preservation. But turn it around and harness it and Courage and empowerment can arise and become a positive driving force that indicates alignment with Martial energy. Likewise the spectre of looming Defeat symbolised by the 5 of Swords can be turned around to generate the strength to push back and stand your ground, rather than being pushed around. The bitter pain of the Disappointment of the 5 of Cups can be wallowed in like an orgy of self pity. Or it can be re-aligned, turned around, and used as the fuel for future success and happiness. The crushing weight of Worry symbolised by the 5 of Disks can feel like a horrible stuck place from which it seems impossible to extricate oneself. But turn it around and use that energy to generate positive action or even just movement. Do something, anything, instead of self destructive mental looping. Look for the opportunity to realign with the Mars force when you see one of the 5 cards. Your enemy may be your best friend.
Chariot Posted February 23 Posted February 23 23 hours ago, alethian said: Sword can represent mentality, and 5 of swords could signify mental battle with someone. It could even involve verbal arguments. These days no one really fights their opponents with swords, unless it is in the real war fields. If it were readings on the real war battles, then it would be a lot more sophisticated weapons they would use rather than swords in this day and age. But no, we are not talking about physical battle here. It would be more likely to be the case of legal or mental battles involving stress and monetary gains. Yes, I agree. However it's kind of hard to see a mental battle in the Anna K card! Hers is the one card that really seems to be violent, doesn't it? I mean, of course people don't fight wars with swords these days, but we don't drive around in chariots either. The cards are symbolic ...and put together in a pre-modern age, in many cases. But the intensity of the depictions in various decks do have an impact on how we interpret them. Some of the depictions are milder than others. My remark about the non-injury in the RWS deck wasn't meant to be taken literally. What I meant to point out is that whatever the battle was about, the losers are still intact. Unhappy, and they've lost their weapons ...but they are still in one piece and not demolished—just humiliated. This goes for a verbal argument as well as any other 'fight.'
alethian Posted February 23 Author Posted February 23 (edited) Great posts. Thanks. In a reading asking, if the future project in discussion at present will materialise soon, The Hermit and 5 of Swords came out. What would be your readings for the combination of the cards? Edited February 23 by alethian
DanielJUK Posted February 23 Posted February 23 Unfortunantly we can't discuss personal readings in this section, it's only for discussing our ideas and views of the cards generally. You would need to post this in Personal Tarot Readings and follow the rules of that section posting it 🙂
Chariot Posted February 24 Posted February 24 (edited) On 2/23/2025 at 9:51 AM, Aeon418 said: The crushing weight of Worry symbolised by the 5 of Disks can feel like a horrible stuck place from which it seems impossible to extricate oneself. But turn it around and use that energy to generate positive action or even just movement. Do something, anything, instead of self destructive mental looping. Look for the opportunity to realign with the Mars force when you see one of the 5 cards. Your enemy may be your best friend. "Mental looping," is a great way to describe the energy of the '5' cards!—with the possible exception of the 5 of Wands, which depicts an ongoing situation rather than one that has finished. But yes, with all 3 of the other suits ...refusing to engineer a way out of a predicament is certainly a presence in those cards. The danger isn't so much in temporarily absorbing or accepting what might be the consequences of bad luck, but in lingering too long in that passive state. Edited February 24 by Chariot
alethian Posted February 24 Author Posted February 24 13 hours ago, DanielJUK said: Unfortunantly we can't discuss personal readings in this section, it's only for discussing our ideas and views of the cards generally. You would need to post this in Personal Tarot Readings and follow the rules of that section posting it 🙂 I see. Sorry about the confusion there. Thank you for letting me know. cheers.
Aeon418 Posted February 24 Posted February 24 (edited) 9 hours ago, Chariot said: "Mental looping," is a great way to describe the energy of the '5' cards!—with the possible exception of the 5 of Wands, which depicts an ongoing situation rather than one that has finished. I agree. In the Thoth deck the 5 of Wands, unlike the other 5's, does not feature an inverted pentagram. The balanced Wand is the conduit and directing power for Martial energy. Any imbalance, misdirection, or blockage here causes Strife and creates a cascade effect that generates the other 5's as the influx of energy works it's way down towards the material realm. The painful consequences represented by the 5's are valuable opportunities to readjust and realign, provided one is able to see the "ordeal" in this way. But this can be very difficult because the knee jerk reaction is to retreat from such situations. Spiritual practitioners should be very familiar with the pattern represented by the 5's. It is not uncommon for someone to start to get "results," only to see their life begin to fall apart right before their eyes due to hidden imbalances and blockages. The temptation to back away from practice can become very great indeed. But the opportunity for change and transformation risks being lost in the process. Edited February 24 by Aeon418
Yola Posted April 5 Posted April 5 Hello! ☺️ I think that in tarot we can never freeze the arcana in a fixed and limited meaning. It will always be 'good' or it will always be 'bad'. We also have to take into account that, within a spread, each position can have a meaning. For example, this card can have a meaning if it is the 'obstacle' or if it is 'advice'. This also varies when it is accompanied by other cards. Here are some meanings of the 5 of swords that I have collected over time: winners, losers and defeats; being at an advantage or disadvantage, unfair competition; taking advantage of available resources, invincibility; staying positive despite the circumstances; losing a battle but not the war; cunning, obstinacy, unequal distribution; excess of resources; waste; gains to the detriment of others; knowing when to stop, surrender; rivalry, plotting behind someone's back, feeling like there is no chance before even trying; vigilance, not turning your back; having self-confidence.
Chariot Posted 16 hours ago Posted 16 hours ago (edited) On 4/5/2025 at 8:44 PM, Yola said: Here are some meanings of the 5 of swords that I have collected over time: winners, losers and defeats; being at an advantage or disadvantage, unfair competition; taking advantage of available resources, invincibility; staying positive despite the circumstances; losing a battle but not the war; cunning, obstinacy, unequal distribution; excess of resources; waste; gains to the detriment of others; knowing when to stop, surrender; rivalry, plotting behind someone's back, feeling like there is no chance before even trying; vigilance, not turning your back; having self-confidence. I especially like your idea that the 5 of Swords can mean 'knowing when to stop.' In the RWS deck it doesn't look as if anybody is actually injured physically, but one person has taken all the other combatants' weapons away, and looks fairly pleased with himself, while the 'defeated ones' look downcast. That person with all the swords has obviously triumphed in this situation. And this person has stopped fighting, once the other side's weapons have been collected and neutralised. The defeated—whether the querent or another party—should accept they've lost this encounter, and move on. The victor should also accept that the encounter is over, they've triumphed, and there is no need to keep reminding everybody or pushing their luck. I will incorporate this idea of 'knowing when to quit' into my future interpretations of this deck. I do use reversals, so the reversal can mean NOT knowing when to quit, or refusing to accept that the skirmish is over. Edited 16 hours ago by Chariot
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