Ace of Swords Symbolism: olives, mistletoe, laurel?

[Caduceus]

Hi all,
I'm still learning to navigate the meanings & symbolism of the original RWS cards.
I've noticed a fair amount of differing interpretations depending on the source*, but in most cases I am able to compare expert opinion & make a logical & intuitive decision that works for me.

In other cases I'm stuck as nothing seems to make sense! So I'd like to ask your opinion 🙂

Example: Ace of Swords.
Atop the sword is a crown (authority/power), with 2 dangling branches.

The sources* so far have said on the left side: Olive branch (mercy), Mistletoe or Laurel (victory)
But none of these have red berries, so I'm not filled with much confidence they are correct.
On the right side most seem to say palm branch (severity). I guess it could be a palm, hmmm.

So. What's going on here? 
There are clearly 2 different branches & they have prominence. I feel there is a strong symbolism being shown not just decoration.

I kind of like the idea of Olive & Palm (mercy/severity) & while it is possible to get a red olive, its not common & i couldnt find any examples of it used  in symbolism.

--------------
* A Complete guide to the Tarot (Eden Gray)
The Ultimate Guide to Tarot  (Liz Dean)
+ internet searches

[JoyousGirl]

@Caduceus where is a crown / wreath placed? 

 

What element is ascribed to Swords? What does that element mean?

There is an Ace for each suit. What does an Ace card usually mean?

 

 

 

[Caduceus]

Hi TT&M, Thanks for your reply.
Ill try my best ~

Swords is AIR. Communication, Truth. Also Conflict.
Ace is the beginning, a spark. I think an ace is to be taken as a bold burst, not a slow manifestation.

 

Ace of swords is the beginning of truth, sudden clarity. & also a symbol of victory.

A sword held up represents truth, the crown over it power.

Hopefully my grasp of it above is on the right track.

Those parts make sense to me, but the wreath ..is it a wreath? its not like the wreaths in 7 of cups, 6 of wands (& others) they are laurel wreaths for victory. Why would it be depicted so differently?

Im not really questioning the card meaning, i accept that. But rather I am trying to understand the specific symbolism behind the 2 branches.

[Caduceus]

6 minutes ago, Caduceus said:

Hi TT&M, 

oh sorry, i got your name wrong!! JoyousGirl. My mistake. I was looking at the wrong place. 😇

[Misterei]

4 hours ago, Caduceus said:

... I kind of like the idea of Olive & Palm (mercy/severity) & while it is possible to get a red olive, its not common & i couldnt find any examples of it used  in symbolism.

Hah! You made me pull out Ace Swords and look very closely. I've been reading for years and never thought about those trailing plants. For comparsin here's an older Tarocchi Ace swords from Dotti deck 1860s. Pretty ambiguous--but it is 2 different plants. In RWS I can see the olives and palm now that you mention it. Black olives can have a sort of dark red-purple-ish color on the tree. But then why not just make them a darker red? Is it simply an accident of print colors? Hmm.

 

[Caduceus]

Thanks Misterei, that's useful to see the comparison, the mystery deepens 🧐

I checked the Tarot de Marseille & its very similar, but a little clearer. There are berries, but very small & black. (there are some versions that show them as white berries too) The ancient card examples look even less like olives.
Im wondering now if the plant variety is less important, but rather its a symbol of nature or abundance.
I'm going to mentally file this conundrum in the "fascinating but perhaps you'll never know" section.

At this point I'm also curious to know from those with more experience of reading - How much does the card imagery inform your reading, even if it varies from the official meaning?
Is it up to the reader to feel what imagery on the card leaps out in that moment? Do you develop your own personal interpretations for each card?

 

For example; Comparing your card examples, the Marseille below & some other decks redrawn from RWS - there is a great variety in how the "falling leaves" are represented on this card.
Some don't have them at all, some are green, Original RWS is yellow & described as not leaves but hebrew Yods for "spirit" (according to Eden Gray), Marseille looks like flames. in others i see butterflies, seagulls, stars.

Does this mean that the image on the card & its elements are greater importance than the official meaning?

 

 

Edited yesterday at 09:13 AM by Caduceus

[DanielJUK]

I've moved this to the Individual Card Meanings section and no need to discuss the card meaning if we are discussing the symbolism 🙂 

@Caduceus you can tag someone's name to reply to them by pressing @, wait a moment and writing their name 🙂 

[DanielJUK]

11 hours ago, Caduceus said:

The sources* so far have said on the left side: Olive branch (mercy), Mistletoe or Laurel (victory)
But none of these have red berries, so I'm not filled with much confidence they are correct.
On the right side most seem to say palm branch (severity). I guess it could be a palm, hmmm.

So. What's going on here? 
There are clearly 2 different branches & they have prominence. I feel there is a strong symbolism being shown not just decoration.

I kind of like the idea of Olive & Palm (mercy/severity) & while it is possible to get a red olive, its not common & i couldnt find any examples of it used  in symbolism.

--------------
* A Complete guide to the Tarot (Eden Gray)
The Ultimate Guide to Tarot  (Liz Dean)
+ internet searches

 

First of all the official meaning, is your meaning? What does it mean to you? What is the symbolism in that reading to you? Different authors just give their opinion on it. We can read different takes but we have to decided for ourselves what it means in the card.

 

Olive Branches, Mistletoe and Laurel all can get red berries. Olives grow on the branch and first go green and then when you harvest them, they are at the colour of their maturity. So the same olive variety can be different colours. It shows how ripe they are and go from green to black but have yellows and purples in-between. Some varies are more prone to red colours like autumn olives and Kalamata. Mistletoe has white berries in the UK and Northern Europe but red berries in the Middle East and Mediterranean. Japanese Laurels have red berries and some other varieties, you can make it work with any of those tree branches I think.

 

Here are some ideas about it from reference books I have....

 

It's all in the cards by John Mangiapane (Tarotbear from AT, I like his meaning ideas) - they represent Love and Hate  (olive branch of peace and palm of victory), the sword cuts both ways.

Llewellyn's Complete Guide to the Ride Waite by Sasha Graham - Palm Branch (victory and triumph), Olive Branch (conciliation and goodwill). The book quotes the Book T (from Aleister Crowley) where the palm represents suffering in Christianity and the palms decorated on tombs for martyrs. 

 

There are different ideas about the exact details and what branches they are but the general symbolism is they are two different branches hanging off the crown. They are a duality, different things. I think for me it's important that the one with red berries represents the feminine (as trees with berries are, although some trees are self-pollinating and some can change sex, mostly red berried trees are female) and the other side represents the masculine. Also it is probably peace and suffering, love and hate, something like that, an opposite pair, the sword crosses them both.

 

 

[Caduceus]

Thanks @DanielJUK I originally tried to create the topic in Card Meanings, but my user rights wouldnt allow it i think. Links also work now great! I couldnt do it before.

[DanielJUK]

There are restrictions in this area until someone gets to 5 posts, you have made it 🙂 

[DanielJUK]

1 hour ago, Caduceus said:

At this point I'm also curious to know from those with more experience of reading - How much does the card imagery inform your reading, even if it varies from the official meaning?
Is it up to the reader to feel what imagery on the card leaps out in that moment? Do you develop your own personal interpretations for each card?

 

 

This is my personal opinion of course, but you get a much better reading with intuition with a foundation of the card meaning or reference meaning. I always look at what symbol really sticks out to me and it changes everytime I read the card, this is the most important part to focus on. I have never really done a deep dive into those things hanging off the crown, they have never been important, but I was reading for someone on here and they seemed really important! So I really looked them up, about 2 months ago. They were the most important symbol in that reading and their meaning was relevant, rather than the sword or the hand coming out of the cloud or whatever. I always notice new things in tarot and learn about them. There are plenty of threads about reading methods in the technique area, we all find our own method but reading what I see in the picture, at that moment and context works best for me. 

[Caduceus]

Thanks. That's very useful info to consider. You are well informed.

I had read some advice that said the card meanings should be learned strictly otherwise you will only be interpreting with part of the info, & others that say it a personal interpretation. So having you support the personal  interpretation side is helpful & its something that speaks to me also. or rather I lie between the two somewhere ...
Im just navigating though what advice I think is core & what is perhaps based on society, or popular trend at the time of writing.

I'm still sceptical about the berries, although I do agree with you that indeed mistletoe & olives can be red, it doesnt sit comfortably with me that PCS would choose to depict Middle-eastern or Japanese varieties over more commonly recognisable ones. & given the art variety across decks - some are multi-coloured - its making me think that the plant identity is not the key.
I still do, like you, like olive & palm as those symbols do fit very nicely.

I particularly like your last paragraph. Duality, different things, ahh yes! This is great because even without an absolute answer, we can still apply some truth.

 

I am fine with not knowing all the answers & accepting my novice state. Im in no rush. I simple wish to enjoy the process & along the way learn.
Many of the cards fall into place for me easily. There are few that I cant help picking at. 
 

[Ferrea]

10 hours ago, Caduceus said:

Swords is AIR. Communication, Truth. Also Conflict.

 

I read this a lot, and I disagree with this notion.

Every suit has its own mode of communication; cups exchange information, and so do wands, pentacles, and swords.

Even a 4 of Cups is communicating: “Leave me alone.” We cannot not communicate.

 

Same for truth. What is truth? Is something only true when it is mentally processed, verbally articulated, or decided upon?

I’m just offering these thoughts to encourage some questioning of how we use these terms and abstract concepts. 

 

 

[Caduceus]

18 minutes ago, DanielJUK said:

reading what I see in the picture, at that moment and context works best for me. 

Brilliant. thanks again. This method seems like the natural path to me, of course coupled with the background learning.

I would say, as a beginner, I have doubt & uncertainty about how to proceed & I worry about learning something & later finding out its wrong. Because, you form an imprint, a mental association bond between the card imagery & your intuition. & later this may be difficult to resolve. 
 

[Caduceus]

1 hour ago, Ferrea said:

 

I read this a lot, and I disagree with this notion.

Every suit has its own mode of communication; cups exchange information, and so do wands, pentacles, and swords.

Even a 4 of Cups is communicating: “Leave me alone.” We cannot not communicate.

 

Same for truth. What is truth? Is something only true when it is mentally processed, verbally articulated, or decided upon?

I’m just offering these thoughts to encourage some questioning of how we use these terms and abstract concepts. 

 

 

 

Great, this is interesting. There's a lot of things I am picking up that don't always gel from one source to another (as mentioned at the start) & this is just the sort of challenge I need to hear.

Eden Gray says Swords "...aggression, strife, boldness, courage. (hatred, battle, enemies), misfortune & disaster. Sword temperament is melancholy. The suit of warriors. " (I abbreviated)
There is no mention of Communication or Truth. Nether does Pictorial Key mention Communication or Truth for suits (but there, suit themes are not covered at all afik) 
Individual cards talk about communication, but its spread over all suits as you note.

Modern guides I've read do talk about Communication & Truth. Part of the work I'm doing to personalise is to cross-reference info & try to find words that best convey the card & stay true to the Pictorial Key.
Ive done it for all the cards, but not the suits. (more work now, thanks 😅)
Eden Gray has great info about symbolism, but its also very geared toward marriage, romance, traditional male/female roles, business, investments - I get the feeling this is social influence & popular interest of the times & I try to filter some of it out.
There's a great deal of that in modern guides too & they tend to be softer & positive. They shy away from negatives.

Personally Ive noticed Wand & Swords seem generally to lean towards conflict, while cups & pentacles are more about improvement. But I need to make a word list i think.

What is Truth?
Its a good thinking point. Nowadays Truth is what you say it is regardless of validity. but I wont get into that.
Truth to me is fact. But a cold fact cant covey intent. If you dig deeper then truth is "perception by experience" -

Its true that I think its cold today, but maybe you are sweltering.
Its true that I gave a complement, but its also true that you were offended.

[Chariot]

Are we assuming that's an olive branch?  Might it be a bay/laurel branch, often associated with victory, kingship, etc?  Some of these have red berries.  

[geoxena]

Well, to add to your confusion, OP, there are many readers who associate swords with fire (steel is forged in fire to make a sword), and wands with air (they're made from trees which need air/oxygen to live), especially if they initially learned the associations through Wicca or witchcraft.  Others who agree with that say that the "original" associations were changed by Waite and the Golden Dawn.  Some say Crowley switched them.  And apparently, historically, there were other ways to associate the suits with elements, depending on who wrote about it. 

 

To me, it makes more sense that swords would be fire, and wands air.  Or possibly even swords as fire, wands as earth, and pentacles as air.  I recently started seeing the swords suit as being mostly about conflict, challenges, aggression, and physicality.  The wands seem, to me, more about growth, stability, and steadiness.  But most of the time I don't even consider the elemental association or will associate a card with whatever element makes sense to me intuitively for that specific reading.  I read mostly by seeing what the imagery will tell me.

 

Some articles, blog posts, and discussions on this:

(Scroll down the page a bit to read this one): https://www.tarotcardmeanings.net/tarot-playingcards.htm

https://www.darkdaystarot.com/single-post/why-i-associate-wands-with-air-and-swords-with-fire-in-my-tarot-decks

https://autumnsunrise.wordpress.com/2008/07/05/tarot-elements-seasons/

https://www.tarotforum.net/threads/fire-versus-air-the-swords-wands-controversy.303593/

https://www.tarotforum.net/threads/wands-are-fire-swords-are-air-or-maybe-not.266456/

 

 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by geoxena