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EmpyreanKnight

Recognizing Upright or Reversed Marseille Pips

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EmpyreanKnight

How do you guys tell whether a pip is reversed or not? I can tell with coupes and most of the despees, but the deniers and bastons leave me scratching my head.

 

I very very rarely mark my cards, but can I do this for the Marseille or is this considered verboten? I have some readings to perform this weekend so halp!

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Flaxen

My solution is simple - I don't read reversals.  ;D

 

I use the system of elemental dignities so will assess the relative positive/negative character depending on the position and the cards surrounding.

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Cobweb

I don't read reversals either but I wouldn't have thought there was any problem with marking them if you wanted to.  My deck is marked: it came with a little red stamp at the foot of each card.  I'll try to take a photo to show you.

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EmpyreanKnight

My solution is simple - I don't read reversals.  ;D

 

I use the system of elemental dignities so will assess the relative positive/negative character depending on the position and the cards surrounding.

 

Oh! I use these on the Thoth, but I don't know if I want to do so for the Marseille. This does look like a very viable option tho. Tjanks Flaxen!

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EmpyreanKnight

My deck is marked: it came with a little red stamp at the foot of each card.  I'll try to take a photo to show you.

 

And now you've got me curious! I initially planned something innocuous, like a black dot on the top of each card, but I want to see how you handled it first, Cobweb. :)

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3illYazi

Some TdM decks have a stamp or copyright mark. Usually what I do is, when I first open a deck, I very closely study the ambiguous cards --it's usually most of the Wands, many of the coins, and around half of the swords-- for small details to distinguish up from down. Sometimes it's the kind of flower, sometimes it's a telltale dot. I keep notes on this.

 

That said, when I'm reading, it's very off and on. If I can recognize a card is reversed, then I read it as such. If not, then I just assume it is not. I have noticed that in Yoav ben Dov's book, the meanings of those ambiguous cards are often noted as similar in the reversed position.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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dancing_moon

I usually look at the backs. :D Even plaid backs are not 100% symmetrical, and many decks have non-reversible backs to begin with.

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EmpyreanKnight

Alright then, I'd check the minute details in the pips themselves and also confirm if the back may be reversible upon closer inspection. Thanks! :)

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Raggydoll

If one goes with Yoav Ben Dovs “Everything is a sign”-motto, then maybe - just maybe - those cards that you really can’t tell if they are upright or reversed are meant to carry the same energies no matter what way they land in a reading. One does not have to read every card in the deck consistently, it is perfectly fine to consider some reversed cards as more significant than others. Just a thought  ;)

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EmpyreanKnight

I like having clear upright and reversed meanings for each card, Raggydoll. It's just how I read. :D

 

You did sorta share the same sentiment as 3illYazi tho:

 

That said, when I'm reading, it's very off and on. If I can recognize a card is reversed, then I read it as such. If not, then I just assume it is not. I have noticed that in Yoav ben Dov's book, the meanings of those ambiguous cards are often noted as similar in the reversed position.

 

I think I should explore this. Thanks!

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EmpyreanKnight

Just an update: thanks for your suggestion, dancing_moon! You're right, the backs are not always symmetrical even if they seem so. I just had to identify easily noticeable markers. Like in my deck for example. Here is an image of the upright and reversed backs:

 

INcsQANh.jpg

 

At first glance they look perfectly similar, especially since the back is reversible. But closely studying it revealed two markers.

 

The first, which has been encircled in purple, is that when upright, the circular center of the flower in the middle edges is visible on the right and missing or very minimal on the left. When the card is reversed, it is the other way around.

 

The second marker, shown encircled in red, is that the upper right bud thingy is light while the lower left one is dark when the card is upright. When reversed, the opposite holds true. It is not very noticeable in the pic, but they are quite distinguishable when one looks at the actual card backs.

 

I checked the backs of all the cards, and while there are aound 3 pips in which the first marker breaks down, all of them follow the second. I just hope that the backs won't fade or something with lots of use. :)

 

In any case, thanks a lot for all of the help! I really dreaded marking the cards, but all of your suggestions were helpful so I was able to avoid that. Special thanks to DM! :))

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dancing_moon

I know, right? ;D It does take some 'find 5 differences' kind of work.

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EmpyreanKnight

Yup lol. Thanks a bunch. ^-^

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Losgunna

I’m totally new to TdM and bought the Noblet, the backs are all different lol, so i don’t know what is upright/reversed. Just want to know what is upright especially in the bastons and the deniers.

 

any help or links where i can find this info?

 

thanks a lot in advance!!!

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leroidetrèfle

Personally, I don’t read reversed cards apart from when working with a 32 card deck.  Like @Raggydollsaid, if you cannot tell if a card is reversed then that is something to consider when you’re approaching the Marseille.

 

Spend some time with the card, and let their images settle in your mind as you get use to its voice. 
 

Dignity neither refers to goodness nor inversion but instead to how congenial the environment is for the element to function. In an environment contrary to its own nature, elements can become chaotic and unsteady and struggle to manage its affairs. The greater the difference the less operative the element can be. Should the element be dignified one will find a more constructive and stable expression. That said, you can try them. 

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Losgunna

Thank you for your reply @leroidetrèfle!

 

Well i also don’t read reversals, just wanted to know the original intent.

It’s like you are buying a new modern painting for example, you want to know what is the original intent and know how to hang it up. You can always choose to do it differently but somehow you want to know first for you choose/feel for yourself. 

 

Well i am like that 😝🤪

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leroidetrèfle

I'd offer to post a picture of mine, Losgunna.  However, I couldn't vouchsafe if they were how Noblet or Flornoy intended as they've seen so much use.   Sorry 😞 .

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Losgunna
16 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

I'd offer to post a picture of mine, Losgunna.  However, I couldn't vouchsafe if they were how Noblet or Flornoy intended as they've seen so much use.   Sorry 😞 .

No sorry, Thank you for you help! 🙏 

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Losgunna

Found something! Here you can find a Noblet with stamp, so you can see how they viewed it as upright or reversed!

But if i look at other editions (like a conver) they have other views 😝 so i think i have to feel for myself like you advised @leroidetrèfle

 

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b105109641.r=Tarot?rk=171674;4

 

A small note, totally of subject sorry!

There is something that confuses me:

6A27A3E8-7D47-4545-8B86-E7936417AB34.jpeg.d5ddb85f928f6b8799dfb4b58c18fac2.jpeg

 

So the conver tarot, dated 1760 is not from Nicolas Conver? But from the/a Conver editor or how to say?

 

 

 

Edited by Losgunna

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