Possible Greenwood reprint.....

[Laura Borealis]

4 hours ago, FindYourSovereignty said:

 

Good point! The file name says it is the large one. Maybe this one is too small and I need the large one... 🤔

 

Yeah, both those links go to the same document, I think.

While we're asking, does anyone have a better version of the alternate Lovers card? The one in Mi-Shell's pdf is so washed-out.

[ilweran]

4 minutes ago, Laura Borealis said:

 

Yeah, both those links go to the same document, I think.

While we're asking, does anyone have a better version of the alternate Lovers card? The one in Mi-Shell's pdf is so washed-out.

Yes, there is a better version, I'll find the link and send it to you.

[Laura Borealis]

4 minutes ago, ilweran said:

Yes, there is a better version, I'll find the link and send it to you.

 

Thank you!

 

I mean no disrespect to Mi-Shell's efforts, I know that was what she had available. Her continued hosting of Greenwood material, especially Chesca's own guidebook, is incredibly appreciated!

[RunningWild]

7 minutes ago, ilweran said:

Yes, there is a better version, I'll find the link and send it to you.

 

May I have that link, too, please?

 

[katrinka]

10 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

I meant that for Chesca, intervening would be a hassle and create stress and require money.

True. But she's known and loved. If she resurfaced, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if someone took the case pro bono, and if there was a fundraiser created for court costs, filing fees, and whatever else might arise.

 

10 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

And yes, it is living in the past, cycling that energy and having to deal with him (his ego? him as a whole) rather than disconnecting from the situation and him altogether. She's rising above, she has disengaged.  Let each day be new. The situation will resolve itself. 

I have to disagree with this. She's living like a wanted fugitive. That's an extremely difficult way to live, not being able to use your real name, living in fear of being discovered. Can she get a driver's license? Open a bank account in her own name? If she works, can she only work under the table? She can't even put up a website selling her art under her real name. Things like that could make her traceable, and Mark Ryan is NOT a nice person. He's been looking for her for years. She probably has to depend on family for things we do ourselves and take for granted.

And she hasn't even committed a crime.

She's not "disconnected from the situation." She's had to arrange her whole life around this.

Mark Ryan is a bully, and the way to deal with bullies is to hit back. But some people just can't.
 

10 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

agree that it is on us to take responsibility for our behaviours.  However, I believe that intentions behind things are relevant too - there is an energy circulating, it either remains as it is or transforms or returns to its origins or ?  It isn't a clear cut cause and effect.

Yes, intentions are relevant. It's all very complex and much of it isn't clear cut enough for us to get our little wet brains around. But it's cause and effect nonetheless, at least from the Eastern perspective. And that's where the concept comes from: Buddhism, Hinduism. It's not for us Westerners to revise it. We can have our own concepts, but we need to stop calling them "karma." It smacks of cultural appropriation.
 

10 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

But I can't assert that I know how it is for sure. And I'm not sure you can either.

I can't. Nobody "knows how it is for sure."
What I was doing was trying to explain the concept of karma. And while I'm not qualified to give Dharma talks, I do know that karma is not what people in the West mean when they use the word.
 

10 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

What I was getting at is that if he's had those decks printed already, he may be trying to pass them off as original decks because he needs to recover his money if he can't sell them otherwise.

I wouldn't put anything past him.

But I'm thinking the originals would say ©1996, while this new edition would say ©1996, 2025. If he really wanted to defraud people on ebay for the full price, he'd have to print decks without the 2025 copyright, a well as boxes showing the original publisher, Thorson's. And didn't a book come with it? It would be a whole separate print run.

Of course he could sell just decks in shrinkwrap. They'd fetch a much lower price but it would be easier.
 

10 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

Some might suggest that charging more than one paid for an item (taking inflation and postage into account etc) is morally reprehensible.

Some might suggest a lot of things on the internet, like insisting the earth is flat and vaccines cause autism.
 

10 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

Too many variables to consider if a thing is morally reprehensible

Actually, it's very clear cut. It only requires a conscience.
 

10 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

People stealing loaves of bread to feed their starving family - is that morally reprehensible?

If they refuse to look for work or ask for help, yes, it is.
If they've exhausted all other avenues - job search, food pantries, food stamp office, etc. - and gotten nothing, the obligation not to let their children starve outweighs any prohibition on theft. They need to get their butt out there and steal bread. Cheese too, and shove a few bags of beans and rice down their shirt if they can.

 

Edited May 13 by katrinka

[katrinka]

On 5/13/2025 at 4:14 AM, gregory said:

If his goes ahead, and if I didn't already own an original - I would buy the pirated one just to annoy him. I know he'd never know but it would give me that smidgen of satisfaction....

I'm very happy with my Printer's Studio copy, but this sounds like a plan.

 

Hey, what do you guys think of this?

Backstory: A racist woman was verbally abusing a child, calling him a horrible slur word repeatedly. It went all over the internet and she got doxxed, so she raised over $773,000 at a site called Givesendgo (it's like a GoFundMe for racists) so she could move. So this 🔥 BRILLIANT  🔥 woman, Kiandria Demone, is trying to see to it that she doesn't get the money. She says that dealing with Givesendgo would be pointless, and she's correct. But there's ANOTHER way. This are her words, from the transcript of the video:

 

 

I've been doing a little sleuthing. Right. So what I thought about as a business owner, what do I what do I want to hit? Do I want to hit her or do I want to hit the money? So I thought about that. So I started searching and trying to figure out how can I find this funding source? I'm a business owner. I own a retail store, so I know there is a funding source. There's a pipeline somewhere, right? Givesendgo is a platform she uses, but they are not the bank.
 

So I thought like, we gotta find a bank and most banks are not going to want to be attached to something like that, right? Like most banks, especially payment processors, they will cut that off with any type of doubt or controversy. They'll usually just cut it off. Right. So what I did, I used to be a web developer. So I know how to code and I know how to read code. So I went and I broke down the code on Givesendgo, check out the page line for line. And there were keywords I wanted to look for, right? So I looked for keywords and I started looking through the keywords and I found the keyword Block Inc. Right. That's familiar right? Block Inc. is the parent company of Square. So I went and I did my researching and it turns out, yeah, that's their payment processor.

 

 

https://youtu.be/Bl15cWi22Ro?si=rNYaN3_viyLG6ziu

 

While supporting a woman who calls a child that word is utterly repulsive, it's possible that a bank  wouldn't want to be associated with copyright theft, either. That's certainly worth trying.

Any business-savvy coders here? Does anybody know one who might assist in finding out who processes the payments?

 

Edited May 16 by katrinka
Bolded some text so people understand that this IS very relevant to the topic.

[JoyousGirl]

5 hours ago, katrinka said:

If she resurfaced,

 

That resurfacing would mean reverting to being Chesca and all that comes with it. Perhaps that's not what she wants. Who knows? Not me. 

 

5 hours ago, katrinka said:

She's living like a wanted fugitive. ... Mark Ryan is NOT a nice person. He's been looking for her for years.  

...
Mark Ryan is a bully, and the way to deal with bullies is to hit back. But some people just can't.

 

We don't know she's living like this. She could be a nun. An author under a pen name. She could have enjoyed the challenge of rebuilding a reputation under another name. Regardless, she holds the Ace card in this situation. It's actually very smart. He obviously isn't. 

 

As for him, let him be the dog that goes back to his own vomit. We're watching him do it which is why we're fixated on it - an awful but fascinating observation of the human creature. 

 

5 hours ago, katrinka said:

We can have our own concepts, but we need to stop calling them "karma." It smacks of cultural appropriation.

English is comprised of words derived from other languages. I'm not sure using a word that describes something there's no equivalent of in our own language is cultural appropriation. We're both going off topic though.   

 

5 hours ago, katrinka said:

I'm thinking the originals would say ©1996, while this new edition would say ©1996, 2025. If he really wanted to defraud people on ebay for the full price, he'd have to print decks without the 2025 copyright, a well as boxes showing the original publisher, Thorson's. And didn't a book come with it? It would be a whole separate print run.

Of course he could sell just decks in shrinkwrap. They'd fetch a much lower price but it would be easier.

 

We would have to wait and see. It's a bit like watching a television series. How does it all end?!?!!!! 😆 

[Teemu]

Actually, a similar things has happened with the "Celtic's Shaman Pack".  I bought it some time ago, completely innocent. But is is a reprint, but with Chesca's consent? Who knows? At least both Dave Matthews and Chesca Potter are credited  in 2021, as is the whole release. So I hope it is ok.

Edited May 13 by Teemu

[Laura Borealis]

20 minutes ago, Teemu said:

Actually, a similar things has happened with the "Celtic's Shaman Pack".  I bought it some time ago, completely innocent. But is is a reprint, but with Chesca's consent? Who knows? At least both Dave Matthews and Chesca Potter are credited  in 2021, as is the whole release. So I hope it is ok.

 

Chesca's contract for the Celtic Shaman deck might have been different, allowing them to continue to use the art. That's what I would assume since it doesn't seem to have been an issue.

 

 

[Rodney]

Superbacker "Tony" has apparently been naysaying in the comments section. To the point that Martin Hughes is trying to get him removed from the campaign (since only backers can comment). 

[katrinka]

49 minutes ago, JoyousGirl said:

 

That resurfacing would mean reverting to being Chesca and all that comes with it. Perhaps that's not what she wants. Who knows? Not me. 

 
I don't claim to know firsthand, but everything points to "absolutely not."
She won't. But Kickstarter is a business. They won't go for "her brother says" or secondhand stories. Businesses like things on paper, guaranteed.
 

56 minutes ago, JoyousGirl said:

We don't know she's living like this. She could be a nun. An author under a pen name. She could have enjoyed the challenge of rebuilding a reputation under another name.

That's highly doubtful. By all accounts, she's quite fragile and her family is protecting her.
Mark Ryan must have really done a number on her. He strongarmed his way into the Greenwood when she had already finished most of the paintings and managed to get his name on the thing for writing a bad guidebook. He's been bugging people trying to find her for YEARS. He's being pushy and stalkerish.

I'm not sensitive or fragile like I get the impression Chesca is, but if somebody stalked me for a quarter century it would definitely put me on edge. I'd be making police reports and sleeping with a 9mm.

 

1 hour ago, JoyousGirl said:

We're watching him do it which is why we're fixated on it - an awful but fascinating observation of the human creature. 

He doesn't fascinate me. I just feel compelled to speak up when I see the kind of abuse she's getting.

 

1 hour ago, JoyousGirl said:

English is comprised of words derived from other languages.

A taco is still a taco. The tacos I get here are different from the ones I've had in Mexico, but it's still a taco. Nobody uses the word "taco" to indicate a tree or a storm drain.
 

1 hour ago, JoyousGirl said:

I'm not sure using a word that describes something there's no equivalent of in our own language is cultural appropriation.

 

We do have words: consequences, punishment, and a slew of others. Plus idioms like "he'll get his," "FAFO", etc. No need to appropriate "karma."
 

1 hour ago, JoyousGirl said:

We're both going off topic though.   

Drifting a bit with the karma discussion, yes. We've been mostly good, though. 👼
 

1 hour ago, JoyousGirl said:

We would have to wait and see. It's a bit like watching a television series. How does it all end?!?!!!! 😆 

A television series with a washed up actor, no less. 🤣

[katrinka]

32 minutes ago, Laura Borealis said:

Chesca's contract for the Celtic Shaman deck might have been different, allowing them to continue to use the art. That's what I would assume since it doesn't seem to have been an issue.

I've always wondered about that deck. Maybe it's OK, maybe not. Nobody really talks about it.
 

18 minutes ago, Rodney said:

Superbacker "Tony" has apparently been naysaying in the comments section. To the point that Martin Hughes is trying to get him removed from the campaign (since only backers can comment). 

LOL, that's BEAUTEOUS. I'm off to look!

ETA: All of "Tony's" comments have been removed. But seeing the fallout was Very Good.

Edited May 14 by katrinka

[gregory]

Damn - did anyone save them ? I was following that and I've been out all evening.

 

But for the record, in terms of "what Chesca wants" - during the last fuss about this, her brother was on record as saying he was with her and she did NOT want it reprinted and did not give her permission. His comments were on the FB page some of us here from carto set up, and which Mark recently got FB to remove.

[Rodney]

6 hours ago, gregory said:

Damn - did anyone save them ? I was following that and I've been out all evening.

I didn't see any of the comments, only that they had been removed...

[katrinka]

Yet another interview where Mark Ryan explicitly states that he does not hold the rights to the Greenwood art.

https://www.assignmentx.com/2011/exclusive-interview-mark-ryan-on-the-wildwood-tarot-cards-and-book/

[gregory]

What this all boils down to is simply that Mark Ryan does not have the right to do this, and knows he doesn't; Chesca certainly didn't want it when she was last heard from by ANYONE, her brother said she wasn't OK with it the last time Mark tried to publish it, but he wants the money so he is doing it anyway. And LORD is he getting a lot of money here.

 

All this we know. And the interview backs it up, as did Chesca's brother's FB posts that Mark had taken down.

[ilweran]

Kickstarter got back to me again, told me again to contact the copyright holder or their representative.

[fire cat pickles]

14 minutes ago, ilweran said:

Kickstarter got back to me again, told me again to contact the copyright holder or their representative.

Seems like Chesca's brother could put a stop to this.

[katrinka]

15 minutes ago, ilweran said:

Kickstarter got back to me again, told me again to contact the copyright holder or their representative.

We need to try to find out which bank they're using.

 

[Rose Lalonde]

 

 

On 5/17/2025 at 6:27 AM, katrinka said:

Yet another interview...

 

That's the one I sent them a while back. I have not, as yet, received a response like @ilweran, though looking at terms of service, I think Kickstarter has covered themselves pretty well. (I'm no lawyer, and I'd like to be wrong.) As a 'platform' only - in the same way that they're not legally responsible for fraud when you don't get what you paid for, from their TOS, I'd be surprised if they aren't also insulated from legal action if their platform is a place where copyrighted material is sold without permission - Unless Kickstarter was notified by the copyright holder or their legal representative via cease and desist or DMCA notice, which puts them in the legal crosshairs. And I fully understand why that is not happening.

 

(I think of all the artists who obviously can't be checking platforms like this all the time looking for their work to show up where it shouldn't be.)

Edited May 30 by Rose Lalonde

[katrinka]

But who has contact information? (for Lindsay Potter)
I'm guessing he's aware of it, but maybe not. Or it's possible that taking legal action could expose Chesca's whereabouts on court documents. We need to ask the guy.

Edited May 16 by katrinka

[katrinka]

8 minutes ago, Rose Lalonde said:

I've been quite happy with the quality and colors(!) on the artist's freely available art-only downloads. 

 

 

That's the one I sent them a while back. I have not, as yet, received a response like @ilweran, though looking at terms of service, I think Kickstarter has covered themselves pretty well. (I'm no lawyer, and I'd like to be wrong.) As a 'platform' only - in the same way that they're not legally responsible for fraud when you don't get what you paid for, from their TOS, I'd be surprised if they aren't also insulated from legal action if their platform is a place where copyrighted material is sold without permission - Unless Kickstarter was notified by the copyright holder or their legal representative via cease and desist or DMCA notice, which puts them in the legal crosshairs. And I fully understand why that is not happening.

 

(I think of all the artists who obviously can't be checking platforms like this all the time looking for their work to show up where it shouldn't be.)

That makes sense - except why isn't Kickstarter full to bursting with pirated stuff? No matter, they're being impossible.
See my recent posts: the bank, the bank, the bank.

Edited May 16 by katrinka

[Rose Lalonde]

Just now, katrinka said:

except why isn't Kickstarter full to bursting with pirated stuff?

I assume because campaign creators are open to legal action for doing so. A pretty good deterrent for many. 

[ilweran]

4 minutes ago, katrinka said:

That makes sense - except why isn't Kickstarter full to bursting with pirated stuff?

It probably does happen and we're just not aware of it. I imagine it probably isn't usually quite as blatant as this.

 

They're very confident that Chesca won't do anything, and that is what changed - nobody suddenly found out they had the rights as along, they just realised they don't need her permission if she isn't willing to stop it.

[gregory]

26 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said:

Seems like Chesca's brother could put a stop to this.

 

23 minutes ago, katrinka said:

But who has contact information? (for Lindsay Potter)
I'm guessing he's aware of it, but maybe not. Or it's possible that taking legal action could expose Chesca's whereabouts on court documents. We need to ask the guy.

 

How did whoever find him for the facebook posts he put up ? He must be on facebook, but I'm not so I haven't a prayer. I just found an ancient (2010) post with an email for him - I have PMd a member of this thread as I am about to be away, but....

 

9 minutes ago, ilweran said:

It probably does happen and we're just not aware of it. I imagine it probably isn't usually quite as blatant as this.

 

They're very confident that Chesca won't do anything, and that is what changed - nobody suddenly found out they had the rights as along, they just realised they don't need her permission if she isn't willing to stop it.

 

Yeah. They seem to feel safe that she won't come out of the woodwork as then they could FIND her and (smart woman) she doesn't want to have anything to do with them.