Those Darn Swords

[Eric13]

Friday night and Saturday, I had a sitter each night for a 15 minute reading, very grateful, but each of them didn't really have a question and I tried to help them along with relationships questions, each absolutely refused to go there. So I said lets just do a question about th future. Great.

So the 4 of swords came up in one present position Friday, and I couldn't really think of much to say excellent well, maybe you need to meditate more. I don't remember what the three previous past cards were, and I hadn't yet been able to see the other present card was, but that's one of the two cards I just seem to go blank on at times.

Saturday, the 7 of swords came up in a present position, the three past cards, one was the WoF. The other present was the Ace of Pentacles, and with the spread I was telling her about a possible business opportunity coming, which the future cards would prove. (That was based on the significator. I forget what it was. Hey it was only yesterday. Anyway, I have to admit, I warned her about someone maybe trying to take advantage of her, but still, I was sort of blank on that. 

But its those two cards and for some reason, only those two cards that turn me numb. I think with the 4 of swords on the Rider deck its that stained glass window. For some reason, I think there is something about that. So, thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Eric13]

@Ruby Jewel Thats a fascinating way of integrating different cards to come up with an interpretation with one and I like it. I like to see the King of Cups as a rather weak King who isn't straight forward about his own self, and I do se the 4 of Swords at times as keeping to himself also. In that particular reading, which was only four cards, neither the KoC or Tower were present. But it's definitely a condition to keep in mind. 

[Eric13]

I like this. I don't agree, in a friendly way, about all you have said concerning some of the Major's with their formulas, integrations with other Majors, but I will this over again and take more thought on it because I do like what I'm reading. For example, I see the Chariot as being the son of the Empress and Emperor. He wasn't a planned child, so he has no past and travels around the world with his warrior spirit and magic and ego trying to spread his infinite seed. The Tower, in the RWS decks which I'm currently all about shows up in a lot of Minor cards that tends to go unnoticed. Which you do see yourself. But I do like your astrological poverties on all of this. I'll be re-reading this.

[Barleywine]

I think I can add a little to the discussion. I did something similar to what Ruby has done, but without the thorough systemization, by creating a table of "Trump Card Allies." In it I used ideas like the King of Wands as the "little brother" of the Emperor and the Queen of Cups as the "little sister" of the High Priestess. (This may go right to your downloads file when you try to open it.)

 

https://parsifalswheeldivination.com/2017/08/10/court-and-minor-cards-as-allies-to-the-major-arcana/

[Eric13]

This is interesting. Although, starting with the Fool for example, is there a reason you paired him with he Ace of Swords as opposed to the King of pentacles?

[Barleywine]

2 hours ago, Joe said:

This is interesting. Although, starting with the Fool for example, is there a reason you paired him with he Ace of Swords as opposed to the King of pentacles?

The Fool is elemental Air and the Ace of Swords is the first of the minor Air cards.

[Eric13]

Okay I see that. Thank you.

[Raggydoll]

I tend to think of what suit/element you have, in combination with the numerology. So, in the 4 of swords you have air and a 4. Four is the most fixed and stable number, than can sometimes get stagnant. It’s like a chair with four legs: it will provide you with support and allow you to rest, but it might be so comfortable that you do not get up, and hence you lose out on opportunities. So there is a point in which you need to get up, or else your butt will get numb and you will struggle to get up at all. And since we are talking air that means our chair analogy is referring to the mental plane. So it may well represent an opportunity for a well needed break and some time to quiet ones mind in order to recharge ones batteries. But there is the danger that you disconnect from your surroundings or that you miss out on something. So the context (the question, the situation and the rest of the cards) will be the determining factors in whether this is a constructive thing or not. 

 

And then we have the seven of swords. I really dislike the traditional ‘theft or dishonesty’ association. I think it narrows this card way too much. To me, the seven is a strategic step to get beyond the balanced and harmonious 6 and find an edge that will take us to the plentiful 8. This mean that i interpret this card as showing a situation where a person is planning and doing work behind the scenes. It is often referring to someone who wants to get the upper hand in a situation or advance in their life, and it is very much a solitary process. They might have an idea that they do not want to share in fear that someone might steal it or because that their plans might get ruined by being revealed to soon. This could be a journalist that’s secretly writing an exclusive article that will uncover something big. It could also be someone who is plotting to advance in their career etc. And yes, there can be a theme of manipulation or dishonesty since that is part of the swords/air energy. But it’s not a dominant part and so I only use those type of interpretations when the context is suggesting or supporting that aspect. 

 

[Eric13]

@Raggydoll You should write a book. You're good. 

And I have now learned, from this fine learning forum that it doesn't really matter if the sitter doesn't have a question, but that that there is much to say about an individual card. Thanks to all!

Now, I have to get started on my Moon spread. No pun intended. 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Eric13

[Barleywine]

2 hours ago, Joe said:

@Raggydoll You should write a book. You're good. 

And I have now learned, from this fine learning forum that it doesn't really matter if the sitter doesn't have a question, but that that there is much to say about an individual card. Thanks to all!

Now, I have to get started on my Moon spread. No pun intended. 

The way I've almost always worked since 1972 (following Eden Gray's suggestion in The Tarot Revealed), I don't know whether the sitter has a question or not since I don't ask in advance. I tell them to concentrate on what they want to know while they shuffle, and then I just read what the cards have to say, with their validation as I go. The subject of interest often emerges to some extent during the dialogue, but offering privacy is my goal, and many sitters take me up on it. This can open up many meaningful byways in a reading that might not present themselves with a narrowly-focused approach.

[Barleywine]

1 hour ago, Ruby Jewel said:

That's interesting about Eden Gray's suggestion. I used to have both her books...but now I only have one for some reason....I'll have to have a "look see". At any rate, I, too, discovered over the years that the tarot seems to have a mind of its own when it comes to speaking to the client. Basically, what I see is that the tarot doesn't always answer a question probably b/c you can't really limit it to a simple question.....especially a yes or no question.  Interestingly, even when I don't know what the cards are responding to in the querent's life, the querent always knows. When we get into the reading they will tell me what the cards are referring to, and then it all becomes clear and smooth sailing from there. So, I really don't even want a question anymore. I always say to the client, "let's see what the cards have to say about the energy around you" and they seem to be happy with that. I look at it this way.....the spirit has something to say.....let's just let them tell us.

This is exactly my experience. I don't have to know the question, the cards respond to it in their own way and my job is to offer interpretations for the sitter to consider. It's when we get into remote reading that it's difficult to work without a question. Although I don't do them in most situations, I could probably work reasonably well with the less subjective energies of a topic area (romance, career, relocation, education, certain aspects of health and money, etc.)

[Barleywine]

1 hour ago, Ruby Jewel said:

Hi Barleywine......thanks for trying to explain my much-too-complicated post above. As I recall, at one time a year or so ago.....back at AT.... you were going to buy the book, "Tarot and Astrology" by Corrine Kenner. If you did happen to purchase it, you will see where  the "Trump card allies" I used are designated on pp. 220-222 of that book......they are not something I just made up in my head or a table I created. In that chart, the High Priestess and the Chariot are actually assigned/designated under the Queen of Cups and the Emperor and Tower are assigned to the Queen of Wands. It is an awesome book....in case you didn't get it when we discussed it. That was quite some time ago so you may not recall it.

Yes, I did buy it but I didn't warm up to her approach well at all (I have too much qabalistic Golden Dawn/Crowley background, I guess) so I didn't get all the way through it. I liked Elizabeth Hazel and Anthony Louis much better for correspondences, and the companion book to the DruidCraft tarot is pretty good too.

Edited July 17, 2019 by Barleywine

[Guest]

On 7/14/2019 at 9:12 PM, Joe said:

So the 4 of swords came up in one present position Friday, and I couldn't really think of much to say excellent well, maybe you need to meditate more.

 

 

Hello, Joe

 

I would like to comment on the four of swords of the Waite-Smith pattern.

 

On the aforesaid pip card, Mr Waite notes the following:

 

“The effigy of a knight in the attitude of prayer, at full length upon his tomb. Divinatory Meanings: Vigilance, retreat, solitude, hermit's repose, exile, tomb and coffin. It is these last that have suggested the design. Reversed: Wise administration, circumspection, economy, avarice, precaution, testament.” [Waite, Arthur Edward; Coleman, Pamela (Illustrator) (1911). The Pictorial Key to the Tarot. London: W Rider]

 

Though the aforesaid description suggests that Ms Smith may have been provided with the aforesaid list of significations, or some comparable list, it could be argued that the iconography of the four of swords can only be related to the keywords coffin, tomb, and repose, in the context of eternal rest or slumber. Consequently, it could be argued that to take into account the iconography of the four of swords, one must assign to the said pip card the very significations that one would assign to the thirteenth trump card of the Waite-Smith pattern (i.e. Death), e.g. to die; to cease; to deaden; to end; to stop; etc.

 

In addition, one could assign to the four of swords the following keywords: to bury; to honour (the sarcophagus is highly decorative); to respect; to deem worthy.

 

Regards
KevinM

[Barleywine]

For what it's worth, here is an old post of mine on the use of correspondences:

 

https://parsifalswheeldivination.com/2017/09/01/correspondences-how-much-is-too-much/

[Barleywine]

5 minutes ago, KevinM said:

 

Hello, Joe

 

I would like to comment on the four of swords of the Waite-Smith pattern.

 

On the aforesaid pip card, Mr Waite notes the following:

 

“The effigy of a knight in the attitude of prayer, at full length upon his tomb. Divinatory Meanings: Vigilance, retreat, solitude, hermit's repose, exile, tomb and coffin. It is these last that have suggested the design. Reversed: Wise administration, circumspection, economy, avarice, precaution, testament.” [Waite, Arthur Edward; Coleman, Pamela (Illustrator) (1911). The Pictorial Key to the Tarot. London: W Rider]

 

Though the aforesaid description suggests that Ms Smith may have been provided with the aforesaid list of significations, or some comparable list, it could be argued that the iconography of the four of swords can only be related to the keywords coffin, tomb, and repose, in the context of eternal rest or slumber. Consequently, it could be argued that to take into account the iconography of the four of swords, one must assign to the said pip card the very significations that one would assign to the thirteenth trump card of the Waite-Smith pattern (i.e. Death), e.g. to die; to cease; to deaden; to end; to stop; etc.

 

In addition, one could assign to the four of swords the following keywords: to bury; to honour (the sarcophagus is highly decorative); to respect; to deem worthy.

 

Regards
KevinM

This is an interesting take that plays well off the iconography. I use the RWS deck in some situations, but I seldom take the "narrative vignettes" of the minor cards at face value, preferring to stay with suit-and-number theory first and then use free-association from the images as an adjunct to provide a spark of inspiration when needed. Although it's barely perceptible under the weight of Smith's scenic presentations, Waite's deck is still at least nominally Golden-Dawn-based.

[Barleywine]

17 minutes ago, Ruby Jewel said:

I do know what you mean. I have the same problem warming up to Crowley.....and I have really tried. I have 2 of his Greenie decks, They are beautiful, but I have a problem with making the tarot fit the "Tree" (which I know very little about)...... which may be a problem similar to making it fit astrology for you. So much depends on our backgrounds. I find the astrological information in the Kenner book to fit much like a glove. At any rate you have access to the chart I used. I also have just in the last couple days pulled out my "DruidCraft" cards and book and started to get interested in them....probably b/c I have purchased the Celtic Wisdom Tarot by Caitlin Matthews purely b/c of its beautiful artwork. My ancestry also comes from Ireland so I have a natural penchant for the Druids. I have posted a request on here for a Druid study group, but so far no response. I think it is going to be my new tarot obsession.

 

I will add a little footnote here re Mister Crowley and the Thoth school. I realize his intelligence, however, it does not compensate for his moral debauchery for me.....that probably has a lot to do with my lack of enthusiasm for the Thoth system. I'm not too much into "intellectualism" these days ..... but more into "spirituality" if that makes any sense. After 10 years of intellectual gymnastics in college, when I got back into the real world finally, and distanced myself from it, other things became more important. Now when I look at some of the papers I wrote back then I'm actually shocked by what I used to know (laugh). In any event, I am a Waite "true believer." I have a lot of respect for him......and that didn't come easy b/c I realize his enormous ego. I have finally come to agree with the switch he made between Strength and Justice; and if you will allow me a purely speculative supposition, I have a strong sense that Pamela Smith may have referenced astrology when she designed the cards. Now, that is just me and my fantasy......certainly Waite would not have ever mentioned it, and he took the credit it seems for her artistic depictions......not very fair but, what else is new in this old world. Btw, I love the fact that you are up and running here so early....you must go to bed with the chickens (laugh). Me? I haven't been to bed yet.

My ancestry goes back to Ulster and also to Scotland, so I have a strong interest in Druidry. My closest approach to it so far has been John Michael Greer's Druidry Handbook, although I've had my eye on a few other books as well. I wouldn't mind starting a sub-forum but I'm not qualified to lead it.

 

Crowley was certainly amoral (and flagrantly so), but I decided a long time ago to keep moralizing out of my approach to the tarot, and just "read the cards."

 

Smith was also a Golden Dawn member and seems to have had some of her own ideas that inevitably made their way into her artwork; I sometimes think that Waite wasn't paying close enough attention to what she was adding to his personal viewpoint.

[Raggydoll]

4 minutes ago, Barleywine said:

My ancestry goes back to Ulster and also to Scotland, so I have a strong interest in Druidry. My closest approach to it so far has been John Michael Greer's Druidry Handbook, although I've had my eye on a few other books as well. I wouldn't mind starting a sub-forum but I'm not qualified to lead it.

I know we have several other members that study or practice druidry so maybe make a post asking what interest there would be among members to start such a sub forum? I think it would be a great addition to this place! 

4 minutes ago, Barleywine said:

Crowley was certainly amoral (and flagrantly so), but I decided a long time ago to keep moralizing out of my approach to the tarot, and just "read the cards."

Yeah, I don’t personally have any negative opinions about the Thoth deck based on Crowley. But I do have some other deck creators who’s decks I avoid, mainly because I find them problematic in ethical ways (I really do not want to finance misappropriation). 

4 minutes ago, Barleywine said:

Smith was also a Golden Dawn member and seems to have had some of her own ideas that inevitably made their way into her artwork; I sometimes think that Waite wasn't paying close enough attention to what she was adding to his personal viewpoint.

I feel the same way, particularly about the minors. I doubt that he oversaw that process anywhere near as diligently as with the majors. 

[Barleywine]

9 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

Yeah, I don’t personally have any negative opinions about the Thoth deck based on Crowley. But I do have some other deck creators who’s decks I avoid, mainly because I find them problematic in ethical ways (I really do not want to finance misappropriation).

I'm thinking of the Estensi Tarot with the castrated man lying on the ground with his "bits" next to him. A beautiful deck ruined for me by one unfortunate choice of imagery (although I could probably just ignore it).

[Barleywine]

4 minutes ago, Ruby Jewel said:

Yes, I have been looking at that book....I'm waiting for payday to order it though. I was hoping you might be qualified and take the hint to start a forum......drats!

 

Imo, moralizing is different from having a moral imperative. I think it is necessary to consider morality when one is tampering with the psychological energies of another person's unconscious, as does the tarot....which is truly quite powerful. In a way it is synonymous with the act of "choosing" which is part of the "magic" in life and one of the great lessons of the tarot.....choosing the high road rather than the low road. It seems to me that Crowley proudly traveled the low road......which is certainly his prerogative, but there are consequences and one of them is that he doesn't get my respect.....narcissists and pedophiles fall into the same category. But, so much for him. I have left him by the wayside, but certainly you must make your own choice based on your way of seeing life. I certainly do not see you as lacking in character so obviously I am not judging you by Crowley.

 

I also want to add here that your lack of interest in the Kenner book is similar to mine. In fact I never read it either, and my high opinion of it is based solely on the astrological chart I mentioned. But, then, I don't read any of those "descriptions" of the cards anymore.....they all bore me with the exception of one: Nancy Shavick. She fascinates, and is very different from the run of the mill.

I call it a "moral compass," and Crowley's seems to have gone haywire although it's still possible to see glimmers of critical self-reflection in his writing.

 

I don't read LWBs for the same reasons you cite. (And now I'm going to go look up Nancy Shavick.)

[Barleywine]

52 minutes ago, Ruby Jewel said:

I'm referring to her book, "The Tarot." She wrote some others, but they don't compare. This book is hand-printed and seems to be quite hard to come by and very expensive. Here's the link;

 

https://www.amazon.com/Tarot-Guide-Reading-Your-Cards/dp/0961531509/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=The+Tarot+by+nancy+shavick&qid=1563365280&s=books&sr=1-2

 

Apparently the mass-market paperback edition has the same text as the hand-written one (if the Amazon reviewer can be believed) and I can get it for around $12 used.

[Eric13]

This has evolved into a fascinating discussion to me. I'm getting a lot, thanks to all. 

@KevinM Thanks for the input also. Waites input is always useful for the essence of his/Pamelas deck and drawings.

At the same time though, with the 4oS's, its the stained glass window in the upper left. A man standing in front of another man, as if he is giving blessings. To me, thats a key of the card. 

Now with all this book talk, I myself avoid the LWBB's. I have Crowley's Thoth book, pub. in'77 for US Games, I like what he says, but don't have a Thoth deck, never had his. I have Paul Foster Cases book, I like that a lot, but his writings on the minors is almost non-existent and somewhat weak, he focuses on numerology and I do know why. I also have the book by Waite, his pictorial key, and thats okay. I also have a very old book published from the Golden Dawn about the tarot, not handy at the moment, it's well known though. That one I actually like a lot. Full of spreads all. But, all this book reliance, I'm like a guitar player, I would rather be out there playing infant of people getting bette. I like reading for people, I get the essence of the cards, most very right on. Occasionally I get to a card, like the two I started talking about, and Im just stumped. From what Ive experienced here, I feel readers may bee better without all these books in their lives. That's just me. 

However, this has been an excellent discussion. 

Now I have to post my Moon spread. Again, no pun intended. 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Eric13

[katrinka]

51 minutes ago, Ruby Jewel said:

Hi Joe....I do believe you are right about putting down the books and just reading the tarot.....once you reach a certain "saturation" point.....and you will know when that is. I still learn from them, but it is usually for the introductory pages. Take care.

That's an important exercise to avoid becoming dependent on books. If you find yourself constantly looking things up, put the books away for a week or two.

But the importance of quality books should never be underestimated. It's actually resulted in a "books are bad!" mindset. Angeles Arrien took it to the extreme in her Thoth book, where she advised not reading Crowley, at all. And she goes on to misidentify a lot of the images on the cards (she calls the pelican a "swan" and relates it to The Ugly Duckling, for instance. It actually refers to the legend that in time of famine, the mother pelican wounds herself, striking her breast with her beak to feed her young with her blood to prevent starvation.) You don't have to become a Thelemite or a slavish follower of Crowley to read the Thoth, but it IS vital to know what you're looking at.

[Barleywine]

1 hour ago, Ruby Jewel said:

Hi Joe....I do believe you are right about putting down the books and just reading the tarot.....once you reach a certain "saturation" point.....and you will know when that is. I still learn from them, but it is usually for the introductory pages. Take care.

I agree. Once we have thoroughly internalized the core of the wisdom, the books are really only useful as references for something we may want to clarify. Unless they happen to be the Book of Thoth and warrant a lifetime of study.

Edited July 17, 2019 by Barleywine

[katrinka]

3 minutes ago, Ruby Jewel said:

I am actually a lover of books and I have way too many now.....I would not suggest taking an entrenched position regarding books or labeling them as "bad". That is rather ignorant......there is always something to learn and I still look through them on Amazon to see what is out there. For me, they serve an important service for anyone who has no access to schools or teachers when you want to learn about a subject. So, this is why I said when you "reach a saturation point." Because at that point, it is time to apply what you know.....one cannot be an apprentice forever.

It wasn't meant as a shot at anything you said, Ruby Jewel! It's just something I've run into all too often.

3 minutes ago, Ruby Jewel said:

 

Pelican's are interesting creatures. When I lived in the Baja on the Sea of Cortez there were hundreds of them and I would sit for hours watching them "dive" for a fish......waiting for them to miss just once.....this went on for 2 years and I never once saw one miss getting the fish, throwing their heads back on their long necks and swallowing the poor thing. Sorry Katrinka...I just had to tell that story to someone (laugh).

Pelicans are no joke. Never underestimate a pelican! (Or refer to it as a "swan", lol.)

[Eric13]

There cant be any civilization without books.