Thoth Discussion Continued (Reading Traditional Decks Intuitively)

[voyager]

On 7/12/2019 at 10:29 PM, FLizarraga said:

Wow, guys, thank you so much for the thorough de-enabling! I do agree that time and effort would be better spent on the Thoth, of which not only I have multiple copies, but basically all the necessary literature. (Plus several Thoth-inspired decks like the Rosetta and the Tabula Mundi and their corresponding books. And the Holy Light --goodness gracious, yes. And all of Robert Place's decks. And, and...)

 

I'm also in agreement that the SKT has become what the Wild Unknown was a few years back (when people spoke of nothing else), and that Benebell is both very knowledgeable and very generous with her knowledge. I just watched a video of hers that finally made me understand why I can't read intuitively with the Thoth anymore like I did in the very beginning, when I knew next to zero about Tarot.

 

Thank you so much!

 

I have had a similar experience with the Thoth (being able to read it intuitively when I started). Do you remember which video of Benebell's helped you understand this?

[FLizarraga]

15 minutes ago, voyager said:

I have had a similar experience with the Thoth (being able to read it intuitively when I started). Do you remember which video of Benebell's helped you understand this?

This one: 

 

 

It's not about the Thoth at all, but it basically says that your insecurities and hangups can block the messages that are right in front of you. IMHO, Crowley designed his deck so its very lines, colors and images embodied all the wealth of knowledge he poured into it. Neither Benebell nor I are saying that studying isn't necessary, only that imperfect knowledge and the insecurities that come with it  can be a greater obstacle than perfect ignorance when it comes to reading Tarot.

[Raggydoll]

7 hours ago, FLizarraga said:

This one: 

 

 

It's not about the Thoth at all, but it basically says that your insecurities and hangups can block the messages that are right in front of you. IMHO, Crowley designed his deck so its very lines, colors and images embodied all the wealth of knowledge he poured into it. Neither Benebell nor I are saying that studying isn't necessary, only that imperfect knowledge and the insecurities that come with it  can be a greater obstacle than perfect ignorance when it comes to reading Tarot.

Absolutely, that was my experience too. This is such a great topic! Want to start a new thread about it? Please? 

[FLizarraga]

10 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

Absolutely, that was my experience too. This is such a great topic! Want to start a new thread about it? Please? 

Gosh, I thought I was the only one, so I'm glad to see you and voyager had the same experience. I would make this into a thread but --where to post it? The Thoth subforum? Talking Tarot?

[Raggydoll]

1 hour ago, FLizarraga said:

Gosh, I thought I was the only one, so I'm glad to see you and voyager had the same experience. I would make this into a thread but --where to post it? The Thoth subforum? Talking Tarot?

Put it in Talking tarot!  My own experience had nothing to do with the Thoth, and it’s very possible that other people can relate too - Thoth or no Thoth ☺️

[Saturn Celeste]

Don't forget Barleywine has a mentor class for Thoth 101 going on now.  You don't even need a book!  Sign up here for the group.

[Raggydoll]

Thanks for splitting/moving this discussion @Saturn Celeste. This way more people can see it. I’m not sure if we should change the title because I feel this goes way beyond the Thoth deck, and Benebell video also speaks in a more general sense. Anyway, to share my own journey (or struggles) with intuitive readings (and it’s a long one 😅):

 

When I started with tarot I had limited access to books and information(this was before internet was a thing and I lived in a village with a small library that had a minuscule occult section). While I did have a little white booklet it did not make much sense to me. I lacked the basic knowledge to grasp it all and I struggled with the language (I’m Swedish and was 13 at the time). So what happened was that I gave up on traditional meanings and tried to simply ‘wing it’. This turned out to be a very successful approach for me and was told that my readings was spot on. In hindsight I understand that I was doing psychic readings but back then I wasn’t sure how I did it. Then I discovered the AT forum and it quickly dawned on me exactly how little traditional knowledge I had. Everyone was referring to symbolism and different tarot systems and I was overwhelmed and discouraged. I lacked the courage to actively participate then because of my limited English skills. So that turned into an ebb and flow process of me doing intense studies into tarot meanings and then completely losing interest for months at a time. I barely did any actual readings anymore and I was so hard on myself.

 

Some years later I had finally managed to grasp the basics and felt confident enough to work professionally. I intended to use this traditional knowledge to enhance my readings. What happened was that I froze and then I started rambling all sorts of incoherent and seemingly random stuff. I felt like I failed but the feedback I got was so surprising. People said I was on spot and my predictions very often came true (I did plenty of predictive readings and yes/no questions back then because that’s what people wanted. No one asked for spiritual stuff or personal exploration/shadow work etc). 

 

Anyway. I yet again became active in the community and this time I tried to figure out my experiences. I learned about intuitive/psychic readings and I really wanted to explore that further. But it wasn’t very easy since no one seemed to have a proper method to use. So I struggled and started overthinking it. The more I actively tried to tap into my intuitive skills the less it worked. So I (temporarily) gave up and stated doing more technical readings instead. I got really good at those but eventually I realized that no reading was ever truly ‘purely technical’ for me. I had in fact unknowingly been accessing my intuition and infusing that into my readings all along. 

 

Then came this wonderful forum. I met some highly supportive people who encouraged me to explore my gifts in a more free form way (without tools). And then to try and combine this with my card readings. It was a major breakthrough. I have now, after 23 years, finally reached a point of being able to tap into my gifts at will and to yet again read my cards in the free form way that I did in the beginning (but feeling way less stressed about it than I did back then). 

 

These days I dare to read any deck intuitively, even the ones that come with elaborate systems and traditions (like the Thoth, to bring this back to topic 😉). I can definitely see how focusing on acquiring more book knowledge can hinder a persons intuition, but in my case I do not regret a thing. I would not have the confidence I have today when it comes to discussing tarot, being active in the community or offering readings to others if I did not have the solid foundation that I now have. And as a truly off topic side note I hope to someday be able to mentor others in developing their unique and intuitive reading styles here on the forum too, as a way to give back. Because forums are amazing and particularly this one has had a profound impact on my practice and on me as a person ❤️

[FLizarraga]

Thank you for setting up this thread, Saturn Celeste! I was planning to do it, but hadn't had the time.

 

Which also will keep me from joining Barleywine's masterclass, alas, as I'm working very long hours at the moment and cannot commit to anything that will demand of me to keep a set pace.

 

This blockage has happened to me at some point or another with most of my decks, but the Thoth was the most mysterious of all, as it read so easily to me. Sort of like, for those who are familiar with Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials books, Lyra and her alethiometer, a divination device that she was able to decipher easily as a child, but that she couldn't read intuitively anymore once she grew up.

[katrinka]

20 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

Thanks for splitting/moving this discussion @Saturn Celeste. This way more people can see it. I’m not sure if we should change the title because I feel this goes way beyond the Thoth deck, and Benebell video also speaks in a more general sense. Anyway, to share my own journey (or struggles) with intuitive readings (and it’s a long one 😅😞

I hope I'm not going too OT here - a lot of this resonated:

20 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

 

When I started with tarot I had limited access to books and information(this was before internet was a thing and I lived in a village with a small library that had a minuscule occult section). While I did have a little white booklet it did not make much sense to me. I lacked the basic knowledge to grasp it all and I struggled with the language (I’m Swedish and was 13 at the time).

 

What is it with 13 and Tarot? So many of us begin at that age.
My first Tarot was mail order - OLD mail order, clip a form, fill it out, and send it along with a money order, lol.
I had no books to work with but the LWB and Eden Gray's Mastering The Tarot.
For the first year or so, I thought one HAD to use reversals and the Celtic Cross. Ack!

20 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

So what happened was that I gave up on traditional meanings and tried to simply ‘wing it’. This turned out to be a very successful approach for me and was told that my readings was spot on. In hindsight I understand that I was doing psychic readings but back then I wasn’t sure how I did it.

That's where our reading paths diverge. Nobody was doing that in the early 70's, We used meanings then, period.
Later, I played around with 80's and 90's ideas but didn't find them helpful. Meanwhile I was experimenting with crystal gazing/clairvoyance, and yes, I can see things, but I have no clue what any of it means until it plays out - if then! And I need dimmed light and solitude. I certainly can't get into that state when reading cards. (If anyone wants to do this, I used Zolar, which is essentially a plagiarized version of this https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/26622 )
What really helped me was when I began learning Lenormand in 2002. I learned how the cards combine and modify each other, something the Tarot writers (with the possible exception of Sasha Fenton) never bothered to explain.
I'm not saying that you don't have it on tap - just that I certainly don't. I need a system.

20 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

Then I discovered the AT forum and it quickly dawned on me exactly how little traditional knowledge I had. Everyone was referring to symbolism and different tarot systems and I was overwhelmed and discouraged. I lacked the courage to actively participate then because of my limited English skills. So that turned into an ebb and flow process of me doing intense studies into tarot meanings and then completely losing interest for months at a time. I barely did any actual readings anymore and I was so hard on myself.

I think we all drop out occasionally while we're learning. It's a sign that we've been hitting it hard, and we've got a bit of burnout.
As for me: 13, 14, lots of Tarot. 15, out running around. Humble Pie, Trapeze, crank it up! LOL. 16, settled a bit, some Tarot. 17, total chaos, but I did readings on it. Etc.

20 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

These days I dare to read any deck intuitively, even the ones that come with elaborate systems and traditions (like the Thoth, to bring this back to topic 😉). I can definitely see how focusing on acquiring more book knowledge can hinder a persons intuition, but in my case I do not regret a thing. I would not have the confidence I have today when it comes to discussing tarot, being active in the community or offering readings to others if I did not have the solid foundation that I now have.

That's just it - intuition from a base of knowledge is one thing.
It's quite something else if, like Angeles Arrien. one pushes the misconception that Crowley’s pelican is a “swan” and “the ugly duckling”, the venom is “tears of the spirit”. There was no excuse for that.

 

[Raggydoll]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

My first Tarot was mail order - OLD mail order, clip a form, fill it out, and send it along with a money order, lol.
I had no books to work with but the LWB and Eden Gray's Mastering The Tarot.
For the first year or so, I thought one HAD to use reversals and the Celtic Cross. Ack!

My very first tarot deck was a majors only deck that my uncle gifted me for Christmas. I had been using regular playing cards for a year and was super excited to get a real tarot deck. But  remember the disappointment when I only got the 22 card version 😅. I never knew back then that such decks existed, I thought you always got the whole thing 😁

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

That's where our reading paths diverge. Nobody was doing that in the early 70's, We used meanings then, period.

If you say so, I believe ya 😊

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

Later, I played around with 80's and 90's ideas but didn't find them helpful. Meanwhile I was experimenting with crystal gazing/clairvoyance, and yes, I can see things, but I have no clue what any of it means until it plays out - if then! And I need dimmed light and solitude. I certainly can't get into that state when reading cards.

I think this is something that people are more or less inclined towards. I had seen spirits, experienced visions and had out of body experiences as a child, so it wasn’t something that came out of the blue. I also have relatives that was said to have “the sight” so I there may be a genetic component to what ways in which a psychic gift presents itself. As you surely know, far from every psychic person has visions, it’s just those Hollywood movies that makes us think so.

 

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

That's just it - intuition from a base of knowledge is one thing.
It's quite something else if, like Angeles Arrien. one pushes the misconception that Crowley’s pelican is a “swan” and “the ugly duckling”, the venom is “tears of the spirit”. There was no excuse for that.

 

I agree 100%. I don’t encourage anyone to just throw themselves into intuitive tarot readings without any knowledge of the traditional meanings or the structure and history of tarot. Knowledge (and the confidence that comes with it) makes the mind relaxed so that you can better tap into your intuition, but it also gives you a framework for understanding the psychic information that comes through. Lastly (and this is just my very personal opinion), I think it is disrespectful and unwise to not learn anything about your chosen tool. I take psychic work really seriously and there is definitely a spiritual component for me too. 

[katrinka]

13 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I think this is something that people are more or less inclined towards. I had seen spirits, experienced visions and had out of body experiences as a child, so it wasn’t something that came out of the blue. I also have relatives that was said to have “the sight” so I there may be a genetic component to what ways in which a psychic gift presents itself. As you surely know, far from every psychic person has visions, it’s just those Hollywood movies that makes us think so.

THIS.
I'm almost sure it's genetic. I've read a lot of old theories, like people with dark hair and eyes being "more psychic" because of "magnetism" and an "excess of protoxide of iron in the blood", but I've not found this to be the case.

People in some families experience these things. Others don't.

Quote

 

I agree 100%. I don’t encourage anyone to just throw themselves into intuitive tarot readings without any knowledge of the traditional meanings or the structure and history of tarot. Knowledge (and the confidence that comes with it) makes the mind relaxed so that you can better tap into your intuition, but it also gives you a framework for understanding the psychic information that comes through. Lastly (and this is just my very personal opinion), I think it is disrespectful and unwise to not learn anything about your chosen tool. I take psychic work really seriously and there is definitely a spiritual component for me too. 

Knowing the system gives you a kind of touchstone, I would think.
And there's a lot of bad information going around, telling people that anything they make up is "psychic" or "intuitive". A more proper term for made up stories would be "fiction".
If there's something uncanny at play, I don't think it's necessary to spin tales!

Edited July 16, 2019 by katrinka

[Raggydoll]

1 minute ago, katrinka said:

THIS.
I'm almost sure it's genetic. I've read a lot of old theories, like people with dark hair and eyes being "more psychic" because of "magnetism" and an "excess of protoxide of iron in the blood", but I've not found this to be the case.

I heard that green eyes was a sure sign. Plus dark hair 😁And I do have both green eyes and dark hair.. but my grandfather who was psychic had red hair and blue eyes, so there went that theory! 🤣🤣🤣 No, but seriously, I believe there must be a genetic component somehow. I never knew as a child what psychic gifts were or that other people in my family had them. It was my dad that told me one day when I spoke about my experiences and my interests. He also showed me some books that had belonged to his brother (who died before I was born), and he apparently also had an interest in the occult. My teenage niece did not know anything about my tarot practice until about a year ago. She started talking about how she’s been drawn to pendulums and divination and that she’s seen spirits. So I told her that it’s sort of a family thing ☺️

 

[katrinka]

I'll bet that made her day!

[Raggydoll]

31 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I'll bet that made her day!

What truly made her day was when I said she could have one of my pendulums 😁

[FLizarraga]

I'm loving this thread.

 

My paternal grandmother was a psychic. Her older brother, whom she adored, and who was gone before I was born, and who was a man of many interests (he studied Esperanto back when it was a novelty) had a "road to Damascus" vision of Jesus where he got thrown out of his bicycle. It was more dangerous than it sounds, as it was one of these old affairs 😅: 

 

 

 

 

She followed him when he got into Allan Kardec's spiritist doctrine after his vision, and worked at a spiritist center for many years. She gave me Kardec's books to read as a child. She insisted that I had the gift, though any controlled attempts I made of contacting the spirits (automatic writing and all that) never led anywhere.

 

I was, however, having visions and seeing spirits everywhere (most of them rather scary), something I could not control. As for out-of-body experiences, let's say that I got to know my bedroom layout pretty well, though I could not leave it. The raw intensity of all this faded once I hit puberty.

 

Edited July 17, 2019 by FLizarraga