Differences Between Marseilles And Rider Waite Meanings.

[katrinka]

5 hours ago, Barleywine said:

The Connolly Tarot is a good example. Some people object to the winged cherubs floating around in it as excessively Christian. I just find them to be artistic devices and ignore any religious connotations. All of the angelic figures in the RWS deck I just take as expressions of the Higher Mind and don't personify them as specific angels (although Gabriel blowing his trumpet in Judgement is a compelling image).

Exactly. With Judgement, we're not concerned with the trial court paradigm, it's more about something being reawakened. You could almost as easily use an image of the Prince kissing Snow White or Briar Rose. Any story where someone was dead, but they get a do-over, often wiser and more enlightened this time around. Or it could be more mundane. A standing ovation for a musician, lol. But no culling the goats from the sheep.

As for the Connolly, I view the cherubs as a device to reassure people who've had the Fear Of Tarot pounded into them. The deck is full of such devices. 😉

 

[devin]

20 hours ago, katrinka said:

They do. I like to think of the cards as using Christian imagery to illustrate a concept. I never get the feeling that I'm being evangelicized at/having Christianity pushed on me when I use a TdM or a RWS. I never felt a need to avoid them. It's not about the Pope, resurrection of the dead, etc. - it's about the ideas behind those things. Most of us are familiar with these concepts, it's a good collection of metaphors. (I'm not saying that the first decks were designed with card reading in mind, only that their perennial popularity attests to the fact that the images work well.)


Like, totally. I think those ideas you mention are like human-centred cosmic archetypes, illustrating a particular event or process with wonderful scalability and adaptability. 

 

Oh, and, yeah, Andy proves the point - it's hard to pin down a universal TdM reading style.

20 hours ago, Barleywine said:

Regarding the trumps, trying to get out from under the looming shadow of Jungian psychology is another challenge (Cherry Gilchrist's Tarot Triumphs was a big help to me there).

This is very true. Along with intuitive reading, the psychologising of divination is probably the biggest contributor to the current state of Anglo tarot. Personally, I see both trends as mirroring the near complete takeover of the arts by aesthetics - a focus on self-expression, psychology, and how something makes you feel. 

 

Btw, I don't intend the above as a value judgement, promise. 🙂

 

EDIT:

 

Wait! I've got it! 

 

What is the essential ingredient shared by almost all TdM readers? A good dose of cartomantic snobbery, that's what!

 

Tell me I'm wrong.

Edited July 18, 2019 by devin

[Barleywine]

32 minutes ago, devin said:

Along with intuitive reading, the psychologising of divination is probably the biggest contributor to the current state of Anglo tarot. Personally, I see both trends as mirroring the near complete takeover of the arts by aesthetics - a focus on self-expression, psychology, and how something makes you feel. 

 

Btw, I don't intend the above as a value judgement, promise. 🙂

 

EDIT:

 

Wait! I've got it! 

 

What is the essential ingredient shared by almost all TdM readers? A good dose of cartomantic snobbery, that's what!

 

Tell me I'm wrong.

Oh, you mean like finger-painting? Not all art is good art from an objective standpoint, no matter how cathartic it might be to its creator. I see quite a few tarot decks that demonstrate that perception. I won't bend to lowest-common-denominator thinking when it comes to art.

 

TdM snobbery? Hmm, where does that leave playing-card readers, who are even more remote from the mainstream? I took on the TdM as a philosophical and intellectual challenge, simply because it seems so impenetrable, and I love a good mystery.

[devin]

13 minutes ago, Barleywine said:

Oh, you mean like finger-painting? Not all art is good art from an objective standpoint, no matter how cathartic it might be to its creator. I see quite a few tarot decks that demonstrate that perception. I won't bend to lowest-common-denominator thinking when it comes to art.

Agree. But the current trend doesn't just apply to the low-bro, it's also replaced traditional concerns like form, beauty, truth, etc. at the high end (to a large extent, anyway).

 

You get my point on the snobbery, though, don't you? Enriquez is a perfect example, calling the RWS a tarot for children!

[devin]

1 hour ago, Barleywine said:

I took on the TdM as a philosophical and intellectual challenge, simply because it seems so impenetrable, and I love a good mystery.

Here's a cool one: Have you noticed how the majors mirror each other as oppositions?

 

1 Magician - World = Start - End (I'm not happy with this one yet.)

2 Popess - 20 Judgement = Mystery - Revelation

3 Empress - 19 Sun = Woman - Celestial father

4 Emperor - 18 Moon = Man - Celestial mother

5 Pope - 17 Star = Human hierarchy - Celestial hierarchy

6 Lover - 16 Tower = Coming together - Coming apart

7 Chariot - 15 Devil = Advancement - Bondage and entrapment

8 Justice - 14 Temperance = Justice - Mercy

9 Hermit - 13 Death = Longevity - Death

10 Fortune - 12 Hanged Man = Change - Stasis

If we then slip the fool in after Force, we get: Concerted action vs. fecklessness. (I'm not entirely happy with this one either.)

 

While most of the oppositions are my own take, the fact that such a schema exists was pointed out to me online, but I can't remember by whom. I will edit if I remember.

 

Interesting, hey?

 

EDIT: I also take this as evidence that mirroring is a technique suited to the tarot.

Edited July 18, 2019 by devin

[Marigold]

32 minutes ago, devin said:

Here's a cool one: Have you noticed how the majors mirror each other as oppositions?

 

1 Magician - World = Start - End (I'm not happy with this one yet.)

2 Popess - 20 Judgement = Mystery - Revelation

3 Empress - 19 Sun = Woman - Celestial father

4 Emperor - 18 Moon = Man - Celestial mother

5 Pope - 17 Star = Human hierarchy - Celestial hierarchy

6 Lover - 16 Tower = Coming together - Coming apart

7 Chariot - 15 Devil = Advancement - Bondage and entrapment

8 Justice - 14 Temperance = Justice - Mercy

9 Hermit - 13 Death = Longevity - Death

10 Fortune - 12 Hanged Man = Change - Stasis

If we then slip the fool in after Force, we get: Concerted action vs. fecklessness. (I'm not entirely happy with this one either.)

 

While most of the oppositions are my own take, the fact that such a schema exists was pointed out to me online, but I can't remember by whom. I will edit if I remember.

 

Interesting, hey?

Now that is really smart. I love it when people do smart stuff with the TdM. Thanks for this devin !!!!

 

Just want to say that I don't think one can really understand the TdM, its essence, its underlying levels, if one doesn't have some kind of idea of the cultural, historical, religious norms of the time. One has to see the TdM (as far as is possible which is not much except for erudite scholars) through the lens of the time. 

 

It's the same if you're reading with the Thoth. If you're not versed at least in some way in Thelema, you're just skimming over it, seeing it on the surface.

 

I don't know if it's so important to understand the Golden Dawn antics and beliefs to read the RWS. The pictures are so in the face that even a kid could understand them.

 

Of course the Christian imagery is very apparent on the TdM. But if one looks closer, one can also clearly see other influences, like philosophical, particular Plato. And mythology (Greek or Roman). Plus astrology with the Moon and Star and Sun. The TdM has many layers. The aim of the deck is not to teach someone how to be a good Christian. The initiatory path that the Tarot indicates with the Major Arcana is the same as is followed on all mystical paths. All mystical paths (at least those that I know of, whether they're from the east or from the west) teach that the ego must be destroyed in order to reach illumination. And that the pathway can be tortuous.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Marigold
I forgot to add something

[Barleywine]

3 hours ago, devin said:

Here's a cool one: Have you noticed how the majors mirror each other as oppositions?

 

1 Magician - World = Start - End (I'm not happy with this one yet.)

2 Popess - 20 Judgement = Mystery - Revelation

3 Empress - 19 Sun = Woman - Celestial father

4 Emperor - 18 Moon = Man - Celestial mother

5 Pope - 17 Star = Human hierarchy - Celestial hierarchy

6 Lover - 16 Tower = Coming together - Coming apart

7 Chariot - 15 Devil = Advancement - Bondage and entrapment

8 Justice - 14 Temperance = Justice - Mercy

9 Hermit - 13 Death = Longevity - Death

10 Fortune - 12 Hanged Man = Change - Stasis

If we then slip the fool in after Force, we get: Concerted action vs. fecklessness. (I'm not entirely happy with this one either.)

 

While most of the oppositions are my own take, the fact that such a schema exists was pointed out to me online, but I can't remember by whom. I will edit if I remember.

 

Interesting, hey?

 

EDIT: I also take this as evidence that mirroring is a technique suited to the tarot.

I love this sort of thing. I did my own take on mirroring while exploring the "trumps-as-pips" (or is it the other way around?) model. Here is the argument and the layout I came up with. In this model, Fortitude as XI sits in the middle of two ten-trump rows, acting as a kind of "fulcrum." The paired trump cards above and below have a unique relationship to the number 11: adding or subtracting that number from one or the other yields its opposite. For example, the Magician (1) plus Fortitude (11) equals 12, the Hanged Man; Death (13) minus Fortitude (11) equals the Papesse, and so forth. The minor cards line up above and below the trumps in ranked rows of ten; those above follow the Magician through Wheel of Fortune in the customary way, but those below operate off of the "arithmetic of 11." The Aces line up with the Hanged Man because 1 + 11 = 12; the Twos plus 11 produce Death, etc. The Fool as unnumbered sits off to one side (I think of it as a "precursor" to Fortitude), and I added the court cards for completeness although they don't play directly into the scheme. "Active" suits are above and "passive" suits are below.

 

I was struggling with the idea that there is no direct correlation between the higher-numbered trumps and the minor cards, and this helped me sort it out, as well as giving me a new appreciation for the importance of Fortitude as the turning point in the series. I see it as a kind of "gateway" between the above and below, as exemplified by the Woman opening the Lion's mouth (not closing it; that was a change Waite made that Paul Foster Case was careful to set straight - look closely at the position of her hands).

 

https://parsifalswheeldivination.com/2017/07/31/fortitude-and-the-tdm-master-layout/

Edited July 18, 2019 by Barleywine

[Barleywine]

3 hours ago, devin said:

Agree. But the current trend doesn't just apply to the low-bro, it's also replaced traditional concerns like form, beauty, truth, etc. at the high end (to a large extent, anyway).

 

You get my point on the snobbery, though, don't you? Enriquez is a perfect example, calling the RWS a tarot for children!

Yes. The thought never crossed my mind, but I guess elitism penetrates even here. I was once accused of it by a magazine editor because I don't have much use for the scripted messages in the RWS minor cards and was emphatic about it in one of my articles, but nothing could be further from the truth. I'm still rather humbled by the TdM as a tool for divination, so I have nothing to crow about.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Barleywine

[Barleywine]

4 hours ago, devin said:

Oh, and, yeah, Andy proves the point - it's hard to pin down a universal TdM reading style.

But we all suffer from the "universal TdM conundrum:" What to do with those pip cards? In the end I decided to create my own paradigm, but it still awaits rigorous testing in use.

[devin]

4 hours ago, Barleywine said:

I did my own take on mirroring ...

Fascinating, truly, thanks for sharing. But, lord, I can tell you're an engineer. 🙂 

7 hours ago, devin said:

You get my point on the snobbery, though, don't you? Enriquez is a perfect example, calling the RWS a tarot for children!

6 hours ago, Marigold said:

I don't know if it's so important to understand the Golden Dawn antics and beliefs to read the RWS. The pictures are so in the face that even a kid could understand them.

Thus it has been demonstrated!

6 hours ago, Marigold said:

Just want to say that I don't think one can really understand the TdM, its essence, its underlying levels, if one doesn't have some kind of idea of the cultural, historical, religious norms of the time. One has to see the TdM (as far as is possible which is not much except for erudite scholars) through the lens of the time. 

Yeah, I understand your point here. But are the basics really that hard to grasp? Besides, being of a romantic disposition, I always keep Wordsworth at the forefront of my mind: "We murder to dissect." 

6 hours ago, Marigold said:

Of course the Christian imagery is very apparent on the TdM. But if one looks closer, one can also clearly see other influences, like philosophical, particular Plato. And mythology (Greek or Roman). Plus astrology with the Moon and Star and Sun. The TdM has many layers. 

Again, I get you, but I'd have a hard time separating Christianity from its platonic influences, anyway. 

6 hours ago, Marigold said:

The aim of the deck is not to teach someone how to be a good Christian. The initiatory path that the Tarot indicates with the Major Arcana is the same as is followed on all mystical paths. All mystical paths (at least those that I know of, whether they're from the east or from the west) teach that the ego must be destroyed in order to reach illumination. And that the pathway can be tortuous.

Honestly, for various reasons, I'm more interested in the TdM's 'mundane' divinatory uses. 

Edited July 18, 2019 by devin

[Charlie Brown]

I really like this, Devin. For the first one, 

6 hours ago, devin said:

 

 

1 Magician - World = Start - End (I'm not happy with this one yet.)

 

Do you think that something like mundane - transcendent would make you happier? 

[Marigold]

4 hours ago, devin said:

 

Honestly, for various reasons, I'm more interested in the TdM's 'mundane' divinatory uses. 

No harm in that. But that doesn't take away the fact that the cards clearly indicate a progression from one stage to another stage of consciousness right up to the end. And that this underlies the whole Tarot of Marseilles. It is the foundation on which all other usages are based.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Marigold

[Barleywine]

5 hours ago, Marigold said:

No harm in that. But that doesn't take away the fact that the cards clearly indicate a progression from one stage to another stage of consciousness right up to the end. And that this underlies the whole Tarot of Marseilles. It is the foundation on which all other usages are based.

For some reason I get the feeling that none of this really came into focus until Jung, since I find it unlikely that "unfolding of consciousness" was high on the list of late Medieval preoccupations.  I did read somewhere that the trump cards may have been used to teach moral lessons to French school children. That I could believe.

[Charlie Brown]

I thought it was the Mantegna that was an educational tool.

[Marigold]

6 hours ago, Barleywine said:

For some reason I get the feeling that none of this really came into focus until Jung, since I find it unlikely that "unfolding of consciousness" was high on the list of late Medieval preoccupations.  I did read somewhere that the trump cards may have been used to teach moral lessons to French school children. That I could believe.

Oh, I think this idea emerged long before Jung. And did Jung speak of illumination ? Wasn't he more into the process of individuation ?

 

There are some speculations which seem quite plausible that Italian cards were used as an education tool. Not necessarily for children only I would assume. But I don't think this was the case once the Tarot of Marseilles as we know it came into full being and fruition. It took some time for the original impetus of the Italian cards to "unfold" as the Tarot of Marseilles. The Italian cards were just the rough draft for the TdM.

 

The exhibition "Tarot - History, Art, Magic" put forward that the 22 triumphal cards represented a teaching of mystical asceticism.

 

When I read the experiences and stories of the mystics of the world, I cannot NOT see clear parallels in the journey of the Tarot. I try to ignore them. Telling myself not to make a reality of our my wishes. To be clear and objective.  But I am unable to keep them out. They creep back without my noticing. 

 

But then again, what do I know.. The Tarot means different things to different people I suppose. I read somewhere a long time ago an essay of someone who believed that the TdM makes strong references to the story of creation and the story of Adam and Eve being thrown out of the garden and all the stuff that happened to them afterwards. He/she forced the meaning somewhat to fit in with this theory, but it was nonetheless quite enlightening and although far fetched at times, was a very pleasant read regardless.

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Marigold

[devin]

On 7/18/2019 at 5:47 PM, Charlie Brown said:

Do you think that something like mundane - transcendent would make you happier?

I definitely do! I had been thinking maybe illusion and truth, but I like yours better. Thanks.

[katrinka]

On 7/18/2019 at 4:28 AM, Marigold said:

I don't know if it's so important to understand the Golden Dawn antics and beliefs to read the RWS. The pictures are so in the face that even a kid could understand them.

Yes, but the window has been narrowed. It loses accuracy, and we certainly can't have clients sitting there saying "Doesn't ring a bell"!
For better accuracy, I've found it useful to Crowely-fy them a bit.
Compare the "on the run from a bad situation" illustration on the 6 of Swords to this https://www.corax.com/tarot/cards/swords-6.html

[devin]

On 7/18/2019 at 11:07 AM, devin said:

While most of the oppositions are my own take, the fact that such a schema exists was pointed out to me online, but I can't remember by whom. I will edit if I remember.

Here we go: http://binarypatterns.blogspot.com/

On 7/18/2019 at 11:07 AM, devin said:

1 Magician - World = Start - End (I'm not happy with this one yet.)

In my non-tarot readings, I recently came across this passage:

 

There is a unity of structure extending from the gene to the planet. The genius of nature lies in its ability to fuse the opposites of autonomy and interdependence to create a whole.

 

This got me thinking, could we not view the Magician (in his role as huckster and con-man) as representative of the human being at its most isolated and atomistic? This makes a kind of sense as the con-man is not integrated usefully into society, but feeds off it, instead. It also fits with the Magician as falling lowest in the ordering of societal roles pictured in the early trumps. So, then we could say, if the Magician represents isolation and separation, then the World, as its opposite, represents interconnectedness and integration. I think this also kinda fits with @Marigold's take on the tarot as representing a path of ego dissolution. (Not that I'm much of an ego dissolver, myself.)

[Marigold]

2 hours ago, devin said:

 

This got me thinking, could we not view the Magician (in his role as huckster and con-man) as representative of the human being at its most isolated and atomistic? 

Interesting that you use the word "atomistic". There are some Biblical theorists and scholars who that say that the word Atom derives from the word Adam. Manly P Hall, well known to us Tarot folk, said "We are the gods of the atoms that make up ourselves, but we are also the atoms of the gods that make up the universe.” 

Edited August 13, 2019 by Marigold

[katrinka]

On 8/13/2019 at 3:24 AM, devin said:

This got me thinking, could we not view the Magician (in his role as huckster and con-man) as representative of the human being at its most isolated and atomistic? This makes a kind of sense as the con-man is not integrated usefully into society, but feeds off it, instead. It also fits with the Magician as falling lowest in the ordering of societal roles pictured in the early trumps. So, then we could say, if the Magician represents isolation and separation, then the World, as its opposite, represents interconnectedness and integration. I think this also kinda fits with @Marigold's take on the tarot as representing a path of ego dissolution. (Not that I'm much of an ego dissolver, myself.)

(Disclaimer: all of the following is in regard to the old pre-GD Tarots.)
That almost makes the case for starting the ordering with the Fool. As much as society may claim to dislike the grifter, he's better liked than the crazy homeless guy. He's hustling. He smells better. It's one of those sad-but-true things.

But the whole thing falls apart when you get to Le Pendu. He's the pittura infamate, the traitor, the guy who did something so unspeakable that he's been utterly rejected by society. People might still buy the Fool a sandwich or waste small amounts of money on the Magician "just for fun", but the Hanged Man gets no mercy.

[Raggydoll]

6 hours ago, katrinka said:

(Disclaimer: all of the following is in regard to the old pre-GD Tarots.)
That almost makes the case for starting the ordering with the Fool. As much as society may claim to dislike the grifter, he's better liked than the crazy homeless guy. He's hustling. He smells better. It's one of those sad-but-true things.

But the whole thing falls apart when you get to Le Pendu. He's the pittura infamate, the traitor, the guy who did something so unspeakable that he's been utterly rejected by society. People might still buy the Fool a sandwich or waste small amounts of money on the Magician "just for fun", but the Hanged Man gets no mercy.

In this context (pre GD decks) I 100% agree with your take. Golden dawn certainly raised the status of several archetypes and they also did a number (no pun intended) on the numerological significance (or ranks) of the majors. 

 

Personally, I see something of importance and value in both approaches. They simply represent different times and different objectives. 

[katrinka]

2 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

In this context (pre GD decks) I 100% agree with your take. Golden dawn certainly raised the status of several archetypes and they also did a number (no pun intended) on the numerological significance (or ranks) of the majors. 

 

Personally, I see something of importance and value in both approaches. They simply represent different times and different objectives. 

Yes! They both work. Tarot will bend without breaking. :)

[devin]

On 8/13/2019 at 12:28 PM, Marigold said:

nteresting that you use the word "atomistic". There are some Biblical theorists and scholars who that say that the word Atom derives from the word Adam. Manly P Hall, well known to us Tarot folk, said "We are the gods of the atoms that make up ourselves, but we are also the atoms of the gods that make up the universe.” 

Cool. I really like those 'things embedded in things embedded in things' ideas. And a look at the natural world does seem to back it up. The Adam thing is interesting too. But wouldn't all the human characters presented in the trumps be on the wrong side of the locked gate and the flaming sword?

On 8/17/2019 at 12:29 AM, katrinka said:

But the whole thing falls apart when you get to Le Pendu. He's the pittura infamate, the traitor, the guy who did something so unspeakable that he's been utterly rejected by society. People might still buy the Fool a sandwich or waste small amounts of money on the Magician "just for fun", but the Hanged Man gets no mercy.

Hmmmm, dammit, yes. But, like you said, this is the amazing thing about tarot: It can absorb all sorts of systems and ideas and give you something useful back. Magical. And all those theories and systems kinda work and yet don't quite work. Like life, I suppose, it's not neat, it's not tidy. 

Edited August 19, 2019 by devin

[Marigold]

51 minutes ago, devin said:

The Adam thing is interesting too. But wouldn't all the human characters presented in the trumps be on the wrong side of the locked gate and the flaming sword?

 

Well, they are in a way. They're working their way back Home. When they reach the World card, they're home. And then of course there's the Fool who is always there to remind you of your true nature. If we care to pay attention to him. You know, as far as I know, the only time Adam and Eve are mentioned in the Bible is in the second chapter of Genesis. First God creates man in his image in the first chapter. Then suddenly another writer (it is assumed that the second chapter was written by someone else) God decides to create man out of the dust and then takes a rib out of him to create Eve. It's a fascinating story but afterwards, as far as I know, they are never mentioned again. After the second chapter, it seems that the narrative is taken up again by the first writer. I dunno... I'm just repeating here what I've read and learned through my studies. 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Marigold

[devin]

8 minutes ago, Marigold said:

Well, they are in a way. They're working their way back Home. When they reach the World card, they're home. And then of course there's the Fool who is always there to remind you of your true nature. If we care to pay attention to him. You know, as far as I know, the only time Adam and Eve are mentioned in the Bible is in the second chapter of Genesis. First God creates man in his image in the first chapter. Then suddenly another writer (it is assumed that the second chapter was written by someone else) God decides to create man out of the dust and then takes a rib out of him to create Eve. It's a fascinating story but afterwards, as far as I know, they are never mentioned again. After the second chapter, it seems that the narrative is taken up again by the first writer. I dunno... I'm just repeating here what I've read and learned through my studies. 

The fall or banishment is in Genesis 3. Check it out: 

So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3&version=NIV

 

The fall seems to me to be a wonderful description of the emergence of agrarian surpluses and city states, the subsequent thrust toward empire, plus the eventual replacement of Goddesses with Gods and the death of egalitarian societies. Not that I think it's the only thing the fall represents!

 

Are you maybe thinking of the fall of Satan, which is not biblical?

 Otherwise, I have a lot of sympathy for your ideas on journeying back home/discovering our true nature. Thumbs-up.