fire cat pickles Posted August 24, 2019 Posted August 24, 2019 As @Marigold and I (and others) were discussing here: The Cardinal (aka Pagan) and Theological (aka Ecclesiastical) Virtues in the standard Major tarots are incomplete, although in some early decks they are present in their entirety (see the Minchiate). We have a few of them, but not all. What happened to the rest? Were they subsumed over time by other cards? Here is a list: Cardinal: Prudence (Wisdom), Fortitude (Strength, Courage), Justice, Temperance Theological: Faith, Hope, and Charity (Love) The "easy"ones to consider, I my opinion, would be: 1. Strength for Fortitude 2. Star for Hope 3. Hermit for Wisdom (or Prudence) 4. Lovers for Charity (or Love) What are your thoughts and opinions on this?
Raggydoll Posted August 24, 2019 Posted August 24, 2019 I agree with the ones you’ve listed. I do wonder about ‘faith’. It’s a bit complex. My first thought was Judgement.
Decan Posted August 24, 2019 Posted August 24, 2019 It depends very much on what we call "faith", commonly I would say the Pope (agreement with the book and customs)
Raggydoll Posted August 24, 2019 Posted August 24, 2019 4 minutes ago, Decan said: It depends very much on what we call "faith", commonly I would say the Pope (agreement with the book and customs) True. I guess I just see that as “church” and not necessarily faith (in tdm context). But it definitely depends on how you define faith, you’re right about that.
Decan Posted August 24, 2019 Posted August 24, 2019 Actually I agree with you but I was thinking that for a lot of people it is likely the same (maybe not for me though).
Marigold Posted August 24, 2019 Posted August 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, fire cat pickles said: God I love this kinds of subject. It's been done again and again and I never tire of it. We never reach a conclusion but we go down such lovely roads !! Firstly, I don't think that there are any of the Theological Virtues in the Tarot of Marseilles. You know, these guys were a lot more heretical than one gives them credit to. Now as for the Cardinal virtues, we could assume that it was just an accident that Fortitude became Force. Maybe the engraver was hungry and wanted to go home for supper. But let's assume not. Because then where is Prudence ? My assumption is that they were making a statement of some sort. A political statement? A snub to the clergy? But then again, they could have wanted to put other things in the Tarot and didn't have enough cards for them all, so they removed those they thought were unnecessary for whatever story they were trying to tell us (if only we knew....). So I don't have any answer. But lots of theories. The one I go with the best is that they had another story to tell. Edited to add : The TdM and the Italian Tarots are not of the same school. One can't analyse one through another. In spite of the similarities due to the same origin. Edited August 24, 2019 by Marigold
fire cat pickles Posted August 24, 2019 Author Posted August 24, 2019 It could have been considered heretical to include the theological virtues, as well.
Saturn Celeste Posted August 24, 2019 Posted August 24, 2019 1 hour ago, fire cat pickles said: As @Marigold and I (and others) were discussing here: The Cardinal (aka Pagan) and Theological (aka Ecclesiastical) Virtues in the standard Major tarots are incomplete, although in some early decks they are present in their entirety (see the Minchiate). We have a few of them, but not all. What happened to the rest? Were they subsumed over time by other cards? Here is a list: Cardinal: Prudence (Wisdom), Fortitude (Strength, Courage), Justice, Temperance Theological: Faith, Hope, and Charity (Love) The "easy"ones to consider, I my opinion, would be: 1. Strength for Fortitude 2. Star for Hope 3. Hermit for Wisdom (or Prudence) 4. Lovers for Charity (or Love) What are your thoughts and opinions on this? They stayed in the Mantegna deck. 😉
Raggydoll Posted August 24, 2019 Posted August 24, 2019 41 minutes ago, Saturn Celeste said: They stayed in the Mantegna deck. 😉 Maybe. Or I guess it could also be that you and I simply would not recognize a virtue even if it sat naked right in front of us 🤗
Saturn Celeste Posted August 24, 2019 Posted August 24, 2019 10 minutes ago, Raggydoll said: Maybe. Or I guess it could also be that you and I simply would not recognize a virtue even if it sat naked right in front of us 🤗 Oh I would certainly notice EVERYTHING 😜
fire cat pickles Posted August 24, 2019 Author Posted August 24, 2019 4 hours ago, Raggydoll said: I agree with the ones you’ve listed. I do wonder about ‘faith’. It’s a bit complex. My first thought was Judgement. That seems like a comfortable match in meaning only, but not visually. What about High Priestess?
Raggydoll Posted August 24, 2019 Posted August 24, 2019 9 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said: That seems like a comfortable match in meaning only, but not visually. What about High Priestess? I see what you mean. Maybe. Or the wheel of fortune. But thats probably just my own modern connotations.
Guest Posted August 24, 2019 Posted August 24, 2019 (edited) 54 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said: That seems like a comfortable match in meaning only, but not visually. What about High Priestess? Much of that depends on our view of who or what la papesse portrayed. If we remember the illiteracy rate in the early modern period, there are some intriguing questions on the titles given to the cards. The resurrection/standing of the dead is confused with the eternal judgement two related but separate events. I had an interesting discussion about this, a few years back, and someone with an appropriate art history background was sure such confusion was deliberate. She believed that there was a (for lack of a better word) Huguenot influence. The so-called Italian cards are complicated. A good argument has been made for a French source for TdM and later variants. Edited August 24, 2019 by Guest
Marigold Posted August 24, 2019 Posted August 24, 2019 25 minutes ago, leroidetrèfle said: She believed that there was a (for lack of a better word) Huguenot influence. There's an old thread in the archives at AtF on this. Dates back to 2004 (my god, I remember when jmd made that thread. Seems like yesterday....) so it may not correspond at all anymore to the posters' ideas or theories today, but still it's interesting. http://www.tarotforum.net/archive/index.php/t-26974.html
Guest Posted August 24, 2019 Posted August 24, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Marigold said: There's an old thread in the archives at AtF on this. Dates back to 2004 (my god, I remember when jmd made that thread. Seems like yesterday....) so it may not correspond at all anymore to the posters' ideas or theories today, but still it's interesting. http://www.tarotforum.net/archive/index.php/t-26974.html I remember that thread! I’ll have to read it again. The woman works (or did at the time c. 2013/14) for a large auction house and is an art historian. I approached her for researching another topic through a mutual acquaintance. We had a fantastic discussion on le monde and the Dodal pattern. I’ve never been sure of my own opinion on the Huguenot theory but there is evidence - but with tarot there is so much scope for questions. That’s part of its fascination. Did not Mel raise this, too? I remember the finding of the Death Takes a Jew etching that clearly shows the Bateleur. Edited August 24, 2019 by Guest
Marigold Posted August 25, 2019 Posted August 25, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said: I remember that thread! I’ll have to read it again. The woman works (or did at the time c. 2013/14) for a large auction house and is an art historian. I approached her for researching another topic through a mutual acquaintance. We had a fantastic discussion on le monde and the Dodal pattern. I’ve never been sure of my own opinion on the Huguenot theory but there is evidence - but with tarot there is so much scope for questions. That’s part of its fascination. Did not Mel raise this, too? I remember the finding of the Death Takes a Jew etching that clearly shows the Bateleur. Wow, that must have been a great discussion. Is there anything specific you remember about your discussion about Le Monde that you could share here with us ? Which picture are you referring to when you speak of Death taking a Jew ? Is is this one ? https://www.google.com/search?q=death+takes+a+jew&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjw2buRz53kAhXNwKQKHdLbD-AQ_AUIESgB&biw=1366&bih=657#imgrc=5Wj1dfHly3EriM: Edited August 25, 2019 by Marigold
Therese Posted August 25, 2019 Posted August 25, 2019 My system is: Justice - Justice Temperance - Temperance Fortitude - Strength Prudence - High Priestess Faith - Hierophant Hope - Star Charity - Lovers
Marigold Posted August 25, 2019 Posted August 25, 2019 Just curious. Why would it be important to have to designate and find these virtues ? Of course, if it's just to enhance one's own understanding of the cards, I reckon that's good 'cos we need all sorts of tools to interpret the Tarot. But of itself, is it important ?
Guest Posted August 25, 2019 Posted August 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Marigold said: Wow, that must have been a great discussion. Is there anything specific you remember about your discussion about Le Monde that you could share here with us ? Which picture are you referring to when you speak of Death taking a Jew ? Is is this one ? https://www.google.com/search?q=death+takes+a+jew&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjw2buRz53kAhXNwKQKHdLbD-AQ_AUIESgB&biw=1366&bih=657#imgrc=5Wj1dfHly3EriM: No; it was this image I was thinking of: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=152530&page=3 With regards to le monde, she said that it was interesting as it contains a Christ based on the ecce homo in a Christ in Majesty setting. She also believed that the numbers were a consequence of printing process but was not quite sure why,
LeFou Posted August 25, 2019 Posted August 25, 2019 I remember reading long ago that Prudence was World.
fire cat pickles Posted August 25, 2019 Author Posted August 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Marigold said: Just curious. Why would it be important to have to designate and find these virtues ? Of course, if it's just to enhance one's own understanding of the cards, I reckon that's good 'cos we need all sorts of tools to interpret the Tarot. But of itself, is it important ? Melanchollic said it best: "There seems to be a flanking aspect to the overall allegory which seems to me to help clarify the meaning of the specific images." 58 minutes ago, LeFou said: I remember reading long ago that Prudence was World. I think it's important to consider the Virtues v. Vices, as well. There is a spiritual wisdom (prudence) and a worldly wisdom...
LeFou Posted August 25, 2019 Posted August 25, 2019 >There is a spiritual wisdom (prudence) and a worldly wisdom... Interesting! Could you clarify how you're seeing the contrast? In Taoism, there would not be a distinction.
fire cat pickles Posted August 25, 2019 Author Posted August 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, LeFou said: >There is a spiritual wisdom (prudence) and a worldly wisdom... Interesting! Could you clarify how you're seeing the contrast? In Taoism, there would not be a distinction. I'm thinking of the old morailty plays, upon which the Majors series may have been based. Of course, this is an unprovable theory, and one for which I did not come up with nor can I provide a source (unfortunately). Later I will search the AT archives. The theory is more or less that the Majors series are based on the medieval morality play where each character is allegorically a vice and/or virtue. As the scene progresses, a play is acted out in order to teach the audience a lesson on appropriate behavior. The chief actor is the "clown" (Fool?), an allegorical vice-actor: https://www.theatredatabase.com/medieval/morality_plays.html
Raggydoll Posted August 25, 2019 Posted August 25, 2019 11 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said: I'm thinking of the old morailty plays, upon which the Majors series may have been based. Of course, this is an unprovable theory, and one for which I did not come up with nor can I provide a source (unfortunately). Later I will search the AT archives. The theory is more or less that the Majors series are based on the medieval morality play where each character is allegorically a vice and/or virtue. As the scene progresses, a play is acted out in order to teach the audience a lesson on appropriate behavior. The chief actor is the "clown" (Fool?), an allegorical vice-actor: https://www.theatredatabase.com/medieval/morality_plays.html Is that not a theory that’s also presented in a book? I’m pretty sure I have it in my collection 🤔 One of the books discussing tarot history... I can check later if you like.
Recommended Posts