Youtube Video: a History of The Tarot

[Raggydoll]

 

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[Raggydoll]

I have not had the chance to watch this myself yet but I wanted to share so that those who wanted to could take a look at it. It would be interesting to hear what you all think about what is said! 

[gregory]

Be good if he'd spelled Visconti right...

 

I am picky, but if it thinks it's scholarly (and the guy does see himself that way; he has at least two books out...)

[Raggydoll]

11 minutes ago, gregory said:

Be good if he'd spelled Visconti right...

 

I am picky, but if it thinks it's scholarly (and the guy does see himself that way; he has at least two books out...)

Can’t wait to hear your picky opinions on the rest of it too 😁

 

this could get heated.. ☺️

 

[gregory]

NOT today. No time.

[Raggydoll]

41 minutes ago, gregory said:

NOT today. No time.

Me neither. Rain check! 

[Morsoth]

I watched it yesterday, and liked it a lot! At first, I thought that the use of a "green screen" with the prestigious library background was a little cheesy, but It does looks nice and the information is pretty accurate. I don't think I learned anything new about the history of tarot, but I never saw a video with all these information reunited in a short and easy to understand way! I liked it enough to download it and saved it in my collection of videos (that I will burn on a Blu-ray disc). Anyway, I also subscribed to the channel, and hope he does other videos in the future!

 

Another great video to watch if you understand French is this 2015 ARTE documentary, looking at the Major Arcana drawings, based on paintings and art:

 

 

[katrinka]

8 hours ago, Morsoth said:

I watched it yesterday, and liked it a lot! At first, I thought that the use of a "green screen" with the prestigious library background was a little cheesy, but It does looks nice and the information is pretty accurate.

Yeah. The green screen/fake background is VERY obvious. It makes me think his place must be all laundry piles, fast food wrappers, and grimy walls.
That might not be the case at all, but my first thought on seeing something so obviously fake is "What are they hiding?"
I didn't watch the whole thing, just the beginning, and then I skipped ahead a few minutes. I did not hear any factual errors. His delivery isn't bad - nice British accent and some dramatic pauses (maybe he goes a bit overboard with those, lol. But still better than a lot of what I see on youtube.) All in all, OK, but I wasn't massively impressed.

Bear in mind, though, that I'm not a Tarot history fanatic, my concerns are much more pragmatic, i.e., accurately predicting future events and other things I can't know otherwise. And when I do want historical info, my go-to guy is JMD.

Here ya go: https://www.fourhares.com/

8 hours ago, Morsoth said:

Another great video to watch if you understand French is this 2015 ARTE documentary, looking at the Major Arcana drawings, based on paintings and art:

 

 

I could barely catch a word, but it does look good.
@Decan (only if you have the time and inclination) what are the salient points in that one? Thanks.

[Saturn Celeste]

On 9/8/2019 at 3:41 AM, Raggydoll said:

I have not had the chance to watch this myself yet but I wanted to share so that those who wanted to could take a look at it. It would be interesting to hear what you all think about what is said! 

I'm heading offline now but I'll watch it tomorrow! 😉

[Decan]

6 hours ago, katrinka said:

I could barely catch a word, but it does look good.
@Decan (only if you have the time and inclination) what are the salient points in that one? Thanks.

I saw it in the past and found it interesting, but I need to take another look to remind me the salients points. With regard to divination I'm not sure there is too much in the video, it's more for historian scholars (if I remember properly!).

Edited September 29, 2019 by Decan

[Raggydoll]

I saw it and thought it was a nice introduction. It did annoy me a bit that he repeatedly misspelled Visconti, but other than that it felt well executed. He clearly aimed to make it a bit dramatic and set a certain atmosphere. And I felt that it worked. He sure had the right accent for it!

[Carla]

Well, I watched 5 and half minutes of it and found his presentation style so unengaging and dry that I lost interest. It's a shame the talk is not chaptered so I could skip to the points I might be interested in. 

[Flaxen]

20 hours ago, Morsoth said:

Another great video to watch if you understand French is this 2015 ARTE documentary, looking at the Major Arcana drawings, based on paintings and art:

This was very interesting - thank you for sharing. Food for thought...

I don’t know much about Ficino but the way his philosophy seems to have influenced certain cards is intriguing. 

[Raggydoll]

2 minutes ago, Flaxen said:

This was very interesting - thank you for sharing. Food for thought...

I don’t know much about Ficino but the way his philosophy seems to have influenced certain cards is intriguing. 

Do you speak French too?! I’m impressed!

 

Those of you who saw the other documentary, please feel free to share some of the best bits with the rest of us! 

[Flaxen]

4 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

Do you speak French too?! I’m impressed!

 

Those of you who saw the other documentary, please feel free to share some of the best bits with the rest of us! 

My spoken French is extremely rusty but I can still understand it quite well. 

 

The documentary focussed on particular cards as a starting point. The Chariot is linked to Plato’s idea of the soul and the horses being the good/bad impulses we have to control. However, the actual horses on the TdM are based on Ficino’s translation of Plato and the extra details he added in. Also, the Devil’s minions are based on Plato’s Allegory of the Cave. Ficino believed that hell was like the Cave - a nightmare illusion which you couldn’t wake up from. 

 

[Decan]

 

The mysteries of the Tarot (ARTE 2015)

 

This documentary is designed to be a serious investigation on the fascinating and mysterious Tarot de Marseille. Who created it? What does it really mean? These things.

But while they mention quickly (at the very beginning of the documentary) the use of the Tarot today for divination purposes, this is something set aside and the focus is mainly on philosophy. Actually they don’t focus on divination at all. 

Therefore, a scientific point of view here, focused on a particular hypothesis (actually they don’t know). This hypothesis is that this deck wasn’t a common deck but a teaching tool to learn a philosophical and secret teaching. For that the documentary particularly focuses on 4 Trumps (Temperance, the Devil, the Chariot and the World).

I list below the significant points.

 

-The Tarot de Marseille is named that way (likely around the 18th century) because it was made in Marseille in France, but its origin is older and italian. So it’s essential to look at the 15th century art to understand more about this deck.

-Pieces of art attributed to Botticelli are interesting in that respect; particularly a fresco in Hungary which has significant similarities with the Temperance card.

-Otherwise the pattern in the Chariot reminds italian pieces of art (15th century) in Florence.

-This young man driving a char could refer to the depiction of the soul by Plato and particularly the way Marsilo Ficino (who translated for the first time in latin Plato’s books) described this in his commentaries.

-Important intellectual influence of Marsilo Ficino and his connection with the Medicis family. At this point they hypothesize of the use of the Tarot by Marsilo Ficino for pedagogical reasons in relation to Plato philosophy (the learning of the virtues and dialectic): Ficino created an academy in his time for young educated people in relation to that. Otherwise another deck of card for pedagogical reasons existed in 1515 (to study roman law).

 

-Marsilo Ficino thought is central to understand cards like the World, the Devil or else. Ficino’s philosophy was singular and not only blended medieval and antique views but also refered to astrology. We can see that in the Tarot and they states in the documentary (while this remains a hypothesis) that Ficino was the creator of the Tarot. The reason he didn’t claim it was to protect himself against a trial for heresy.

-The World card is said to depict the Christ with around the 4 evangelists, and for Ficino this card shows the soul liberated from the body. The Devil card pattern has connections with some Botticelli drawings -Botticelli and Ficino would have been in contact- but there are also obvious similarities with the particular way Ficino (in his commentaries) explained the Allegory of the Cave by Plato (as a platonician his conception of Hell was singular).

-At this point in the documentary they refered to a text by Marsilo Ficino and developed a bit things concerning Ficino’s conception of the universe (with references to numerolgy and astrology), and conclude that the Tarot is probably a synthesis of his astrological-religious-phisolophical conception.

 

Considering the strong emphasis on Marsilo Ficino here I add a link to a page on wikipedia about him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsilio_Ficino 

Edited September 29, 2019 by Decan

[reall]

hm, I like idea & Botticelli and Ficino connection it makes sense!;) will check that links tnx 4 awesome find!^^ lol

[Raggydoll]

2 hours ago, Decan said:

 

The mysteries of the Tarot (ARTE 2015)

 

This documentary is designed to be a serious investigation on the fascinating and mysterious Tarot de Marseille. Who created it? What does it really mean? These things.

But while they mention quickly (at the very beginning of the documentary) the use of the Tarot today for divination purposes, this is something set aside and the focus is mainly on philosophy. Actually they don’t focus on divination at all. 

Therefore, a scientific point of view here, focused on a particular hypothesis (actually they don’t know). This hypothesis is that this deck wasn’t a common deck but a teaching tool to learn a philosophical and secret teaching. For that the documentary particularly focuses on 4 Trumps (Temperance, the Devil, the Chariot and the World).

I list below the significant points.

 

-The Tarot de Marseille is named that way (likely around the 18th century) because it was made in Marseille in France, but its origin is older and italian. So it’s essential to look at the 15th century art to understand more about this deck.

-Pieces of art attributed to Botticelli are interesting in that respect; particularly a fresco in Hungary which has significant similarities with the Temperance card.

-Otherwise the pattern in the Chariot reminds italian pieces of art (15th century) in Florence.

-This young man driving a char could refer to the depiction of the soul by Plato and particularly the way Marsilo Ficino (who translated for the first time in latin Plato’s books) described this in his commentaries.

-Important intellectual influence of Marsilo Ficino and his connection with the Medicis family. At this point they hypothesize of the use of the Tarot by Marsilo Ficino for pedagogical reasons in relation to Plato philosophy (the learning of the virtues and dialectic): Ficino created an academy in his time for young educated people in relation to that. Otherwise another deck of card for pedagogical reasons existed in 1515 (to study roman law).

 

-Marsilo Ficino thought is central to understand cards like the World, the Devil or else. Ficino’s philosophy was singular and not only blended medieval and antique views but also refered to astrology. We can see that in the Tarot and they states in the documentary (while this remains a hypothesis) that Ficino was the creator of the Tarot. The reason he didn’t claim it was to protect himself against a trial for heresy.

-The World card is said to depict the Christ with around the 4 evangelists, and for Ficino this card shows the soul liberated from the body. The Devil card pattern has connections with some Botticelli drawings -Botticelli and Ficino would have been in contact- but there are also obvious similarities with the particular way Ficino (in his commentaries) explained the Allegory of the Cave by Plato (as a platonician his conception of Hell was singular).

-At this point in the documentary they refered to a text by Marsilo Ficino and developed a bit things concerning Ficino’s conception of the universe (with references to numerolgy and astrology), and conclude that the Tarot is probably a synthesis of his astrological-religious-phisolophical conception.

 

Considering the strong emphasis on Marsilo Ficino here I add a link to a page on wikipedia about him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsilio_Ficino 

So interesting!!

[_R_]

The second documentary linked to is by Christophe Poncet, whose website contains an English version: https://www.3x7.org/en/

and who has also penned an interesting academic article on the Chariot here: 

 https://www.academia.edu/3611973/The_Image_of_the_Chariot_in_Marsilio_Ficinos_Commentary_to_Platos_Phaedrus._The_Vehicle_of_the_Soul_as_an_Instrument_for_the_Return_to_God

 

There is an extensive interview with the man himself here: https://legrimoiredemnemosyne.wordpress.com/category/christophe-poncet-et-les-mysteres-du-tarot-de-marseille/

 

Finally, a handy illustrated summary of the documentary may be found here: https://papacitoyen.reves-connectes.com/blog/2015/03/10/les-mysteres-du-tarot-de-marseille-sur-arte-florence-le-berceau-du-tarot-de-marseille-a-lepoque-des-medicis/

 

Needless to say, Google Translate will come in handy.

[Raggydoll]

1 hour ago, _R_ said:

The second documentary linked to is by Christophe Poncet, whose website contains an English version: https://www.3x7.org/en/

and who has also penned an interesting academic article on the Chariot here: 

 https://www.academia.edu/3611973/The_Image_of_the_Chariot_in_Marsilio_Ficinos_Commentary_to_Platos_Phaedrus._The_Vehicle_of_the_Soul_as_an_Instrument_for_the_Return_to_God

 

There is an extensive interview with the man himself here: https://legrimoiredemnemosyne.wordpress.com/category/christophe-poncet-et-les-mysteres-du-tarot-de-marseille/

 

Finally, a handy illustrated summary of the documentary may be found here: https://papacitoyen.reves-connectes.com/blog/2015/03/10/les-mysteres-du-tarot-de-marseille-sur-arte-florence-le-berceau-du-tarot-de-marseille-a-lepoque-des-medicis/

 

Needless to say, Google Translate will come in handy.

That’s great! 💜 Google translate is a real friend 😀

[Decan]

Yes interesting! But they tend to suggest that divination wasn't the purpose of the Tarot at the beginning, but this??

Ficino was an astrologer (and also practiced talismanic magic!), actually astrologers didn't practice for philosophical purposes or even psychology but in a very predictive way, therefore I don't know here...

 

I was thinking that their conclusion/hypothesis fits with what people of our time want to hear (somehow), I mean that the documentary avoid to consider in detail what our societies don't respect, they just mention quickly this and that and set things aside. But interesting documentary though!

Edited September 30, 2019 by Decan

[Morsoth]

I'm a French Canadian, now fully bilingual in English (I still have some trouble with my English pronunciation, but people understand me). Knowing French is really useful for reading boks about the Tarot de Marseille and the Lenormand cartomancy. Now, if only I could understand Italian! 🙂

Edited October 1, 2019 by Morsoth

[Morsoth]

On 9/30/2019 at 4:30 AM, Decan said:

Yes interesting! But they tend to suggest that divination wasn't the purpose of the Tarot at the beginning, but this??

Ficino was an astrologer (and also practiced talismanic magic!), actually astrologers didn't practice for philosophical purposes or even psychology but in a very predictive way, therefore I don't know here...

 

I was thinking that their conclusion/hypothesis fits with what people of our time want to hear (somehow), I mean that the documentary avoid to consider in detail what our societies don't respect, they just mention quickly this and that and set things aside. But interesting documentary though!

I love the history of tarot cards! I now think that the Tarot de Marseille could have been designed with some esoteric symbols, but they still were only used for playing the game of Tarot at the time of their creation, not for divination. The use of Tarot de Marseille as a divination tool came later.

 

The very first date that links playing cards with divination is 1765. Here are some key dates of famous tarot decks and important events:

 

1442-1463 - The Visconti-Sforza Tarocchi (Used as a game)
1491 - The Sola-Busca Tarocchi (Used as a game)
1559 - The Tarot of Paris (Used as a game)
ca1650 - The Tarot of Viéville (Used as a game)
1650 - The Tarot of Marseille Type I (Used as a game)
ca1660 - The Tarocchino di Mitelli (Used as a game)
ca1680 - The Tarot of Besançon (Used as a game)

1709 - The Tarot of Marseille Type II (Used as a game)
1765 - Zaira, a teenage peasant girl in Russia who learned how to do divination with playing cards from Gypsies, become the travelling love slave of Giacomo Casanova
1770 - Release of the Book Etteilla, ou manière de se récréer avec un jeu de cartes by Jean-Baptiste Alliette

1775 - Release of Conversational Cards, the first oracle deck, by S. Hooper in England

1781 - Antoine Court de Gébelin initiates the interpretation of the tarot as an esoteric arcane

1788 - The Etteilla Tarot Type I (Used in Cartomancy)

          - Marie Lenormand learn and use the divination systems of the Etteilla cards
1835 - Tarocco Soprafino (Used as a game)
1843 - The Jeu de la Princesse Tarot (Used in Cartomancy)
1840 - The Etteilla Tarot Type II (Used in Cartomancy)
1870 - The Etteilla Tarot Type III (Used in Cartomancy)
1893 - The Naibi of Giovanni Vacchetta Tarot (Used as a game)
1906 - The Wiener Secession Tarock (Used as a game)
1909 - The Rider-Waite Tarot (Used in Cartomancy)
1969 - The Thoth Tarot (Used in Cartomancy)
1977 - The Golden Dawn Tarot (Used in Cartomancy)

Edited October 1, 2019 by Morsoth

[Decan]

Hmm, yes. Actually I'm not a gambler and don't play poker or something but I guess that to use cards as a game (gambling) is something very very old!

And Etteilla and Mlle Lenormand seem central in the cartomancy history!

At some point I think that people will highlight the Etteilla Tarot (currently it isn't really used).

[Symph]

Just got done watching this whole thing, I have never had the history of tarot explained so it was all news to me!  I love now having a basic understanding of where the cards came from.  After that vid was over another one started up that I found even more interesting!  It was providing evidence for the claim that the tarot actually is derived from an ancient egyptian system of divination/archetypal chart.  It really made a lot of sense, even if it was mostly speculative.  Here it is if you're interested!