Adriana Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 Manipulation can be in many forms, anywhere from downright malicious to almost benign. But what cards would you say can come up for manipulation? the first that comes to mind is the magician and maybe some swords card. 5 of swords as trying to win an argument or point of view through deception. The magician could be that telephone seller who has a way with words. Maybe the king or queen of swords reversed? But what cards in your experience has meant this and when is it malicious or almost innocent?
Raggydoll Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 For me it would have to be several cards who together create a certain dynamic, along with the context of the reading. I agree that air/sword cards are the usual suspects. Magician could certainly be involved, 7 of swords too - and like you said, the reversed Queen or King of Swords. But if it’s work related then I think a reversed 3 of pentacles could be someone who’s not getting recognition for their work and so they can become unpredictable and not always play nice. The same with reversed 6 of pentacles. And if there is love and jealousy involved then a reversed three of cups or a reversed queen of cups could be bad news. To name just a few. So there are many possibilities. No single card means manipulation on its own (not the way I see it), there needs to be context, a special dynamic - plus an intuitive knowing (again, just how it works for me).
Raggydoll Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 I would also add that when I say ‘reversed’ then that could just as well be ill dignified cards when a reading is done without reversals.
zedekiel Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 I think @Raggydoll covers it well. 7 of Swords paired with others like reversed 3 of Cups and Coins seems like a major que for manipulation. I think also possible 7 of Swords with 5 of Swords, as in, someone is trying to wage a mental fight with you that you're unaware of. The 7 of Swords with The Lovers might also indicate this as a manipulation of the choices you're making. Someone who's advising you to pick your options or deal with your relationships in a way that actually isn't beneficial to you.
Grizabella Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 (edited) The Heirophant, especially in a position of reversed meaning and reinforced by something like the 7 of Swords and Magician would be another one. Card combinations and context are everything with card meanings, though. In a relationship reading the Magician, two of Cups, Heirophant, the 5 of Swords, 7 of Swords, King of Swords, Knight of Wands would indicate an abusive relationship, for instance. Here's why: The Magician isn't who he appeared to be but he's got a great flash bang personality. He got her to believe what he wanted her to believe. He woo'ed her into a committed monogamous relationship (2 of Cups, Heirophant). The 7 of Swords reinforces the deception of the Magician. The 5 of Swords brings in physical and other kinds of abuse. He's the cold, unflinching side of the King of Swords and he's also the unfaithful Knight of Wands, or at least wants her to believe so as part of his manipulation and the fear he uses to help control her. This contributes to her fear of losing him and her self-image of never measuring up so he looks elsewhere or else she constantly worries he will. ETA: Throw in a reversed Emperor---or even an upright one, really----and I almost couldn't read these cards as anything but a domestic abuse situation. Specific questions and named positions are a great help in telling what a card or cards in a specific reading and in a specific position mean, especially in the early years of a person's tarot journey. Edited September 14, 2019 by Grizabella
Saturn Celeste Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 The Devil, reversed Queen of Wands, Knight of Wands.
Raggydoll Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 3 minutes ago, Saturn Celeste said: The Devil, reversed Queen of Wands, Knight of Wands. OMG I forgot to mention the devil!! How hilarious! I wonder if it was he who made me do it....
Grizabella Posted September 15, 2019 Posted September 15, 2019 That's right! How in the world could we forget the Devil???
bookshop Posted September 15, 2019 Posted September 15, 2019 I'd toss in the 4 of pentacles as well. Controlling people tend to be manipulative people.
Guest Posted September 15, 2019 Posted September 15, 2019 Hello, Adriana I assign to The Moon the verb manipulate as I assign to the same the adjective manual, which is etymologically related to the noun moon and to the verb manipulate. Regards KevinM
Littlewhitewitch Posted September 16, 2019 Posted September 16, 2019 (edited) On 9/14/2019 at 5:14 PM, Grizabella said: That's right! How in the world could we forget the Devil??? That’s interesting as I don’t see the Devil as manipulation, but I guess it depends on the context. Edited September 16, 2019 by Littlewhitewitch
Raggydoll Posted September 16, 2019 Posted September 16, 2019 3 minutes ago, Littlewhitewitch said: That’s interesting as I don’t see the Devil as manipulation, but I guess it depends on the context. Well it’s definitely part of the commonly accepted understandings of that card 🙂. The Devil is, for many, the master puppeteer. “The Devil made me do it!” and all that ☺️ So alongside ‘bondage’, ‘addictions’, ‘toxic relationships’ etc, then ‘manipulation’ is definitely an accepted and very common interpretation. But personal understandings of cards will of course vary. It just felt silly that we forgot about it since it’s such a frequent theme. Just a few examples from google 😀 (This one isn’t a tarot card but it shows that this is a fairly universal idea.)
Adriana Posted September 17, 2019 Author Posted September 17, 2019 Wow, thank you all for sharing your thoughts! And the devil images made me giggle 😈 the Devil does make sense but probably not alone. I could see it come up for the receiving end of the manipulation, that they might be bond by the flattering words, what they are made to believe and to be controlled. Do you think the devil could represent the manipulator too? Maybe in co dependent relationships where the manipulator does it to not lose the other person, fear etc.
Raggydoll Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 55 minutes ago, Adriana said: Wow, thank you all for sharing your thoughts! And the devil images made me giggle 😈 I know! I giggled too 😁 It probably helps that I wasn’t raised religiously so I don’t actually believe in the devil as such ☺️ Quote the Devil does make sense but probably not alone. I could see it come up for the receiving end of the manipulation, that they might be bond by the flattering words, what they are made to believe and to be controlled. Yes. It’s also when we deceive ourselves and allow others to run the show so we can choose to feel like victims... Quote Do you think the devil could represent the manipulator too? Maybe in co dependent relationships where the manipulator does it to not lose the other person, fear etc. Absolutely. If the devil represents another individual then it’s usually not great news. It might not always be ‘evil’ or explicitly bad intent, but the end result would most likely still be very destructive or unhealthy.
Eric13 Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 Something a boom out that Page of Pwntackes in the RWS deck. The way hes holding out that Pentacle and is slyly looking at you as if he saying "go on, take this, its okay!" As if it's the forbidden fruit. And what about the King of Cups, floating around with the fishes, holding his Cup but not looking at it. Looking away as if he knows something's not right here, but hes going to get you to do it anyway.
Raggydoll Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Eric said: Something a boom out that Page of Pwntackes in the RWS deck. The way hes holding out that Pentacle and is slyly looking at you as if he saying "go on, take this, its okay!" As if it's the forbidden fruit. And what about the King of Cups, floating around with the fishes, holding his Cup but not looking at it. Looking away as if he knows something's not right here, but hes going to get you to do it anyway. Ive heard a couple of people describe the shadow side of King of Cups as a manipulative alcoholic.
Grizabella Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 I think just about any of the courts could be read as manipulative, depending on the context and intuition and all. The Heirophant is manipulative for sure----look at how the church can manipulate the parishioners in many ways.
Raggydoll Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 11 minutes ago, Grizabella said: I think just about any of the courts could be read as manipulative, depending on the context and intuition and all. The Heirophant is manipulative for sure----look at how the church can manipulate the parishioners in many ways. Yes. And there are also different ways in which a person can be manipulative.
Grizabella Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 Just now, Raggydoll said: Yes. And there are also different ways in which a person can be manipulative. Definitely! And if we all get really down to the nitty gritty, we're all manipulative in our own ways. And children are really brilliant manipulators, aren't they? 😛 I think just about any card could have its manipulative side in a reading.
Raggydoll Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 1 minute ago, Grizabella said: Definitely! And if we all get really down to the nitty gritty, we're all manipulative in our own ways. And children are really brilliant manipulators, aren't they? 😛 I think just about any card could have its manipulative side in a reading. For sure. Maybe we should try to name a card that has no potential for manipulation in it. You go first! 🤣
Grizabella Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 I was going to suggest the Hanged Man since he's thought of as being self-sacrificing and altruistic, but on the other hand, he might be doing that to manipulate public opinion, and certainly he's trying to manipulate the powers that be/fate/ etc.
Grizabella Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 How about 2 of Pentacles? But I guess when you're juggling your pentacles, you're manipulating them.
Raggydoll Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 Okay, I’ll give it a go... how about - Ace of Cups. Or Death? 😅
Grizabella Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 Well, Death could be seen as manipulative if someone were to commit suicide or a murder out of spite or rage, right? Ace of Cups holds the promise of the whole suit, but a person could use that promise as a manipulative ploy if they were conning somebody they knew wanted a "happily ever after". How about the Tower??? That one is a bolt out of the blue, kind of. I can't think of a way it could be used manipulatively by a human, can you? I guess to stretch a point, if somebody threw a hand grenade into the tower, that would be somewhat of a bolt out of the blue and war is definitely a manipulative thing.
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