In a Perfect Tarot World

[Marigold]

3 hours ago, katrinka said:

That would suck, TBH.
I agree that 90% of the RWS-based decks are crap. Sturgeon was no fool. But if you get rid of everything that's 90% crap, there's not much of anything left in the world. No books, no movies, no food, etc. Humanity might be swept away in the process, too. A lot of us are no bargain. 😉

Anyway, the Thoth is based on the same ideas. I read them almost identically.
The Thoth is the KEY to the RWS. You can see exactly where Waite fudged things.

 

Oh, no it's not the quality of those tarot decks that I'm talking about. It's because they're RWS based. I wouldn't suggest that they be extinguished. No genocide. And I did say they would be free to roam in my lands without any border controls or anything. No need for a resident permit. Free as birds. Even the rubbish zombie ones. As long as they don't call themselves tarot but something else (like super duper cards for divination.)

 

Crowley makes the grade because he didn't switch 8 and 11 around. There are lots of things I find wrong in the RWS deck, but this switch I'll never forgive. That's where the corruption is the clearest and the most shocking. Also Crowley calls the Justice card Adjustment and that also gives his deck a pass into My Perfect Tarot World. Only just, but it gets in. Also my Perfect Tarot World mustn't be monolithic so this comes in handy.

 

But of course all this is tongue in cheek. (Or not).

 

Who or what is Sturgeon ?

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Marigold

[gregory]

2 hours ago, Marigold said:

 

Who or what is Sturgeon ?

 

You could always click the link in katrinka's post....

[Marigold]

Ah... it's my touchpad. It's not working properly. I pressed on the Sturgeon and it didn't link to anything, so I thought it was just underlined. I'm using a mouse now and I see it is a link.  Sorry. 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Marigold

[gregory]

No worries; I was just startled, as you are internet savvy, and on a forum, I click EVERY link on principle !!! Sheer curiosity, something you share, I think !

[katrinka]

LOL. Yes, do familiarize yourself with Mr. Sturgeon. Philosophers still walk this earth. 😆

 

3 hours ago, Marigold said:

Crowley makes the grade because he didn't switch 8 and 11 around. There are lots of things I find wrong in the RWS deck, but this switch I'll never forgive. That's where the corruption is the clearest and the most shocking.

You might not want to look too closely at Minchiate or Etteilla, or even the Flamand. People have been tinkering forever.
I don't have a problem with it. My issue with Waite boils down to the fact that he was a pompous a$$, IMHO. But a lot of the old occult writers were. We have to sift out the good stuff. 😉
 

 

[Raggydoll]

56 minutes ago, gregory said:

 I click EVERY link on principle !!! Sheer curiosity, something you share, I think !

OMG, I just imagine if my mom heard that. She hardly ever clicks on links because she thinks that they will lead to:

1. A credit card scam

2. An internet virus (which will probably also turn out to be a credit card scam)

3. Porn

4. A recipe for bombs 

5. Or all of the above. 

 

What makes it even funnier is that my mom doesn't have a credit card....  

(Its also a bit problematic because my mom is afraid to click 'yes' on anything, including updates for her security program... 🤦‍♀️)

 

[Raggydoll]

But to answer the question: In my perfect tarot world there wouldn't be a stigma around predictive readings and fortunetelling. 

[Marigold]

17 minutes ago, katrinka said:

LOL. Yes, do familiarize yourself with Mr. Sturgeon. Philosophers still walk this earth. 😆

 

You might not want to look too closely at Minchiate or Etteilla, or even the Flamand. People have been tinkering forever.
I don't have a problem with it. My issue with Waite boils down to the fact that he was a pompous a$$, IMHO. But a lot of the old occult writers were. We have to sift out the good stuff. 😉
 

 

Oh, they're okay those decks you mention. They're cousins. All the same family. 

 

Lol for the pompous a$$.

[katrinka]

34 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

But to answer the question: In my perfect tarot world there wouldn't be a stigma around predictive readings and fortunetelling. 

I've grown accustomed to stigmas. There are stigmas around a lot of nice things, like cocktails and tattoos. 🥰

But I get what you mean.

[gregory]

In a perfect tarot world. you could read and no-one would question why and how and whether it was predictive, fortunetelling or - I suppose - advisory - or what method you had used - just so long as you got results.

[Eric13]

I've really come to like RWS. Well, mainly the PCS-UB decks. Members of the Golden Dawn had to make a tarot deck of their own in order to be members. Waite and Smith took a chance to take a 700 year tradition into a whole-other realm. To me that takes courage. 

I compare them to the great American blues men of the early 20th century. What they went through just by being African-Americans singing songs and playing the guitar. Then Muddy Waters came along and made it all electric. Then rock and rollers came along playing blues influenced music, then the eagles, and Dylan went electric and that changed everything. Similar to what Waite did. 

And, listen to some early British bands like Zeppelin, early Bowie, Stones and The Who. They used to look at RWS cards and write songs about them. 

Ever realize that anyone?

Also, I also agree with what @Raggydoll says about the future predictions. 

[Raggydoll]

14 minutes ago, gregory said:

In a perfect tarot world. you could read and no-one would question why and how and whether it was predictive, fortunetelling or - I suppose - advisory - or what method you had used - just so long as you got results.

That's actually how I find it to be - outside of tarot forums. When I read professionally, and anytime I give real life readings to folk these days, they never ask me what type of reader I am or how it works. They sort of take for granted that anything is possible and that I can answer any type of question (😅)... And all they DO care about is that they have heard that I am good at what I do. Do you know how many times people just assumed that if I read cards then I will also be able to contact their dead relatives or to find out where they misplaced their keys? (and yes, I have sometimes tackled those type of requests, but I think the majority of readers don't). The topic of ethics, right/wrong, and whats possible/impossible in regards to tarot... that tend to be mostly discussed on forums, in my experience. 

[gregory]

37 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

 Do you know how many times people just assumed that if I read cards then I will also be able to contact their dead relatives or to find out where they misplaced their keys? (and yes, I have sometimes tackled those type of requests, but I think the majority of readers don't). 

Actually, if you can possibly locate my step-up phone charger....  I REALLY need it....

[AJ-ish/Sharyn]

10 hours ago, katrinka said:

But if you get rid of everything that's 90% crap, there's not much of anything left in the world.

 

Homans love their crap. Look under any christmas tree 🙂

 

What if the RWS didn't exist...oh man, that gives me a lot to think about! 

But...what if Waite was a modern man today and set out to do his class exemplar? I wonder if we'd still have a secretive and sly product, or an exemplary piece of thought and practice? 

 

My today's wish, thinking on that thought...would be that every RWS deck artist had to sit down with the original RWS deck and name me two pieces of symbology from each card. Before they could even pick up pen and pencil. So many have nothing to do with the deeper reaches of tarot, and I'd ban the whole lot of what I call 'portrait decks'. 

[Raggydoll]

42 minutes ago, gregory said:

Actually, if you can possibly locate my step-up phone charger....  I REALLY need it....

Problem is that it will cost you so much that I think it might be cheaper to buy a new one... 😈 No seriously. I don't really know what a step-up charger is but my first thought was that its fallen into a pile of stuff. There's a colorful fabric next to it, but the material makes me think it might be a bag of sorts. The color is purple/blue. But don't take my word for it. Finding lost stuff is NOT my specialty. I seem to be very good at finding what my sister and niece misplaces but I have a strong energetic connection to them so that's probably it. 

[Marigold]

1 hour ago, AJ-ish/Sharyn said:

Homans love their crap. Look under any christmas tree 🙂

 

What if the RWS didn't exist...oh man, that gives me a lot to think about! 

But...what if Waite was a modern man today and set out to do his class exemplar? I wonder if we'd still have a secretive and sly product, or an exemplary piece of thought and practice? 

 

My today's wish, thinking on that thought...would be that every RWS deck artist had to sit down with the original RWS deck and name me two pieces of symbology from each card. Before they could even pick up pen and pencil. So many have nothing to do with the deeper reaches of tarot, and I'd ban the whole lot of what I call 'portrait decks'. 

Yes, if Waite were a modern man, he may have done things differently. Maybe I've been too hard on the poor chap. When I studied his deck recently to do a "clone" of it with postage stamps (my aim of doing this "clone" was to better understand his deck), I realised how anguished the poor guy actually was.  I don't know what background he had growing up as a child, but if it were today, I would suspect he'd grown up in a Christian fundamentalist family. That's the message I got in particular very strongly with the suit of Wands. "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

 

I like your wish for today. Yes... a bit of symbology. Not just pretty pictures. Make an oracle if you just want to have pretty pictures. 

 

Portrait decks are not so bad if one understands the symbology. And if you know the thorough biographies of 78 different people. Which is unlikely... 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Marigold

[Marigold]

The tarot world has changed a lot in the last ten years when I was absent. I would have been hung and quartered and tarred and feathered if I had dared say at the time that the RWS deck is maybe not as great as everyone makes it out to be. Hounded and exiled with all my quarters to a desolate island with only brussel sprouts to eat. 

 

How things change... it's not the Wheel of Fortune though. It's a different kind of change. Something more permanent than the Wheel of Fortune. 

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Marigold

[Raggydoll]

15 minutes ago, Marigold said:

Yes, if Waite were a modern man, he may have done things differently. Maybe I've been too hard on the poor chap. When I studied his deck recently to do a "clone" of it with postage stamps (my aim of doing this "clone" was to better understand his deck), I realised how anguished the poor guy actually was.  I don't know what background he had growing up as a child, but if it were today, I would suspect he'd grown up in a Christian fundamentalist family. That's the message I got in particular very strongly with the suit of Wands. "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

 

I like your wish for today. Yes... a bit of symbology. Not just pretty pictures. Make an oracle if you just want to have pretty pictures. 

 

Portrait decks are not so bad if one understands the symbology. And if you know the thorough biographies of 78 different people. Which is unlikely... 

Waite grew up catholic I believe. And he was into hermeticism as an adult. From what I’ve seen of the second deck he made (the majors only) there was a deeply spiritual side to him. He might still have been a pompous ass, though I have heard that he was described as having a good sense of humor by people who knew him. It’s also been speculated by Mary Greer that Waite might have had high functioning autism and that this might have been part of the reason for his style of writing. 

[katrinka]

2 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

Waite grew up catholic I believe. And he was into hermeticism as an adult. From what I’ve seen of the second deck he made (the majors only) there was a deeply spiritual side to him. He might still have been a pompous ass, though I have heard that he was described as having a good sense of humor by people who knew him. It’s also been speculated by Mary Greer that Waite might have had high functioning autism and that this might have been part of the reason for his style of writing. 

I don't mind his writing style. I love old books and I'm used to reading that kind of prose.
It's just his attitude: "I am the keeper of the secrets of the universe that the Tarot holds, and I'll dribble some of them out to you riffraff and unwashed peasant masses, but not the whole system. You don't have enough money to be fit for the Mysteries. Now if you'll excuse me I have to don my Grand Orient robes and go sit on my throne."

 

I'm not kidding myself that Crowley spilled the beans for any altruistic reasons. He was trolling Waite. But we still got the needed information. And besides, it was hilarious, as feuds go.

[Raggydoll]

12 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I don't mind his writing style. I love old books and I'm used to reading that kind of prose.
It's just his attitude: "I am the keeper of the secrets of the universe that the Tarot holds, and I'll dribble some of them out to you riffraff and unwashed peasant masses, but not the whole system. You don't have enough money to be fit for the Mysteries. Now if you'll excuse me I have to don my Grand Orient robes and go sit on my throne."

 

I'm not kidding myself that Crowley spilled the beans for any altruistic reasons. He was trolling Waite. But we still got the needed information. And besides, it was hilarious, as feuds go.

That.Picture.Is.Everything

 

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

 

[Aoife]

29 minutes ago, katrinka said:

 Now if you'll excuse me I have to don my Grand Orient robes and go sit on my throne."

 

Noooooo.... now I feel sorry for him!

Just wait til his mother finds out what's happened to her bedroom curtains!

[Raggydoll]

1 hour ago, Aoife said:

Noooooo.... now I feel sorry for him!

Just wait til his mother finds out what's happened to her bedroom curtains!

But surely she made him that dress? “I promise, I’ll make it so pretty that no one will know we used grandmas old curtains. Your friends won’t tease you - they’ll be in awe!” 😁😁😁

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, Raggydoll said:

But surely she made him that dress? “I promise, I’ll make it so pretty that no one will know we used grandmas old curtains. Your friends won’t tease you - they’ll be in awe!” 😁😁😁

That particular subterfuge worked for neither Scarlett O'Hara nor Carol Burnett. 🤣😝

 

[AJ-ish/Sharyn]

In a perfect tarot world I'd have every Moon card from every deck! And no deck would have been harmed in the getting...

[Raggydoll]

1 hour ago, AJ-ish/Sharyn said:

In a perfect tarot world I'd have every Moon card from every deck! And no deck would have been harmed in the getting...

And you would share pictures of your collection with us, I hope?! 😍