Counterfeit Decks

[gregory]

That OCDSLYGB is all over the web selling all sorts of stuff.....

[Guest]

Asia could have been a potentially great market for Tarot publishers, but there are TONNES of counterfeit decks there in even the biggest selling platforms. Includes some rare OOP and expensive indie decks too.

[Natural Mystic Guide]

True.  True.  I live in Indonesia (Bali) and sometimes shop on Tokopedia (kind of like Amazon in the states).  More than half are pirated copies -- you can tell by the low prices.  So I only look at the expensive ones or the ones that you have to wait 3 weeks for them to be shipped to Indonesia.

[MaggieH]

I would never buy a counterfeit deck, it’s depriving the creator/creators of their dues. I think it encourages dishonesty, but that’s my opinion. 

[DanielJUK]

Sadly I think a large percentage of people buy counterfeit decks without realising till it arrives 😢. It's not always a decision to support the black market.

[ilweran]

On 8/3/2023 at 7:21 AM, Chariot said:

I know this is an old-ish thread, but it's worth keeping it going, as this stolen deck issue still bothers me a lot.  

 

It was good to learn that the absence of a Little White Book is a flag, when buying any deck ...used or otherwise.

And here's an entry from Amazon UK today that just screams 'fake' doesn't it?  Multiple card decks (mentioned later in the listing) for sale at a cheap price, and at least one reviewer mentions the lack of any guidebook.  And brand name: OCDSLYGB?  What is that, when it's at home, eh?  Sadly, this deck seems to be dispatched BY Amazon, so the third-party seller isn't even a factor here.

 It's still happening....

 

 

 

 

Third party sellers can have Amazon dispatch their goods, and apparently - so I've heard on fountain pen forums I hang out in - they don't keep third party seller stock separate from their own and people have received counterfeit pens this way when actually buying from Amazon.

[Arania]

I bought a huge collection from ebay last year, used and unused decks most of those I didn't have yet. Most of them where counterfeit but I only realied this a few weeks ago when someone told me about the QR codes (some of those with codes were original though, weirdly enough) on the boxes denoting fakes. The cards were all good quality, at least one even better than the flimsy original. The seller didn't advertise "original" decks either and probably didn't know as this was an inheritance sale, and it never occured to me to question anything.

 

I personally do not care if I have originals or not, it is a question of copyright not quality. I find it very annoying though that you can't be sure to get originals anywhere, even in a store around here they had counterfeits and no one cares. Police will tell you that unless they can grab large shipments of counterfeits, the cost and time involved to check any claims in this direction is not justified for a few "niche items."

 

They jump into action though if you report counterfeit clothing and such. Because the big companies have the money to sue, I guess.

[Chariot]

On 8/4/2023 at 2:40 PM, DanielJUK said:

It's always worth reporting decks you think are counterfeit on the sites. Etsy, Ebay and Amazon do remove them if you report the items. Some of them let you report it from the item page but others make you contact them and select a related option. They don't seem to do much about them unless reported though 😞 . All the big tarot brands have a contact form on their websites where you can send a link to them and they also will get them taken down.

That's good advice.  I wonder if they take note if you haven't actually bought the item?

[gregory]

16 hours ago, Chariot said:

That's good advice.  I wonder if they take note if you haven't actually bought the item?

 

Yes. (I have done and they did.) Of course they were all still up there from other evil sellers, but at least I got half a dozen pulled (ones which I knew were limited editions and where the seller had more than the number created up there - that made it easy !)

[Chariot]

8 hours ago, gregory said:

 

Yes. (I have done and they did.) Of course they were all still up there from other evil sellers, but at least I got half a dozen pulled (ones which I knew were limited editions and where the seller had more than the number created up there - that made it easy !)

That's good to know.  I will report in future. The worst that will happen is nothing will happen ...and perhaps something will happen to make it more difficult for these shysters to sell purloined or fake goods.

[Misterei]

On 8/2/2023 at 11:21 PM, Chariot said:

... the absence of a Little White Book is a flag, when buying any deck ...used or otherwise.

And here's an entry from Amazon UK today that just screams 'fake' doesn't it?  ...  And brand name: OCDSLYGB? 

OCDSLYGB means the seller has obsessive compulsive disorder and he's SLY-ly trying to rip off customers in Great Britain. The name says it all 🤣

 

I got Amazon to remove a counterfeit Lightseers in a tin. But it literally took CALLING their customer service and explaining the whole situation at length to a person in India. I got a credit to my account and the deck was removed. LOL trying to explain the whole counterfeit tarot thing to a customer service rep who doesn't know tarot is a bit daunting. Like at first it was ... you got a the correct deck and it wasn't damaged ... what's the problem? How can you know its fake?

[Chariot]

2 hours ago, Misterei said:

OCDSLYGB means the seller has obsessive compulsive disorder and he's SLY-ly trying to rip off customers in Great Britain. The name says it all 🤣

 

I got Amazon to remove a counterfeit Lightseers in a tin. But it literally took CALLING their customer service and explaining the whole situation at length to a person in India. I got a credit to my account and the deck was removed. LOL trying to explain the whole counterfeit tarot thing to a customer service rep who doesn't know tarot is a bit daunting. Like at first it was ... you got a the correct deck and it wasn't damaged ... what's the problem? How can you know its fake?

Yeah, I think I was planning to just report these decks via an online notice of some kind.  I can just picture me trying to explain this over the phone to some bemused Amazon representative on the other side of the planet who assumes I'm speaking Jawa ...."Oh ceee deee sligub is a fake terrrosellar!"  

[Misterei]

3 hours ago, Chariot said:

Yeah, I think I was planning to just report these decks via an online notice of some kind.  I can just picture me trying to explain this over the phone to some bemused Amazon representative on the other side of the planet who assumes I'm speaking Jawa ...."Oh ceee deee sligub is a fake terrrosellar!"  

The online complain went nowhere. Amazon sent a form letter informing me they had investigated and the deck was really a tarot deck. Ummm. Yeah. Gee, thanks. Hence the call to India. LOL that service rep now knows more about tarot decks than he ever wanted to.

[DanielJUK]

On 9/7/2023 at 3:15 PM, Arania said:

I personally do not care if I have originals or not, it is a question of copyright not quality. I find it very annoying though that you can't be sure to get originals anywhere, even in a store around here they had counterfeits and no one cares. Police will tell you that unless they can grab large shipments of counterfeits, the cost and time involved to check any claims in this direction is not justified for a few "niche items."

 

We get people complaining here about the low-quality decks they have bought and many many requests for guidebooks. They didn't get one with the deck and the link to a digital one doesn't work. Only some self-published decks have a pdf guidebook, the rest all have real physical ones, for some decks they are important. By not buying originals, you never know what you are getting. Will it be good quality? or just black and white photocopies of the original cards with none of the original box stuff? The quality control is unpredictable to non-existent.

 

The problem with the "it doesn't really matter" argument is that it has consequences up the chain of deck publishing and eventually affects us.

Some artists have said they won't make new decks after seeing the flood of pirated versions of their previous creations, some have reduced their deck creation because of it. These are some really big names, like Ciro M and others. The counterfeit decks don't bring the artist or publishers any money, so the industry starts making losses. Eventually, this comes back to us, fewer decks, fewer new creations from our fave artists and more expensive decks to cover the financial losses. The chain in the end goes back to us 😞 . The counterfeit industry doesn't make new content, it just copies it cheaper.

 

5 hours ago, Misterei said:

The online complain went nowhere. Amazon sent a form letter informing me they had investigated and the deck was really a tarot deck. Ummm. Yeah. Gee, thanks. Hence the call to India. LOL that service rep now knows more about tarot decks than he ever wanted to.

 

Thanks for putting in the effort 🙏

Traditionally these big sites did care about their reputation and take action about this sort of thing 😞 .

[Arania]

21 minutes ago, DanielJUK said:

 

We get people complaining here about the low-quality decks they have bought and many many requests for guidebooks. They didn't get one with the deck and the link to a digital one doesn't work. Only some self-published decks have a pdf guidebook, the rest all have real physical ones, for some decks they are important. By not buying originals, you never know what you are getting. Will it be good quality? or just black and white photocopies of the original cards with none of the original box stuff? The quality control is unpredictable to non-existent.

 

The problem with the "it doesn't really matter" argument is that it has consequences up the chain of deck publishing and eventually affects us.

Some artists have said they won't make new decks after seeing the flood of pirated versions of their previous creations, some have reduced their deck creation because of it. These are some really big names, like Ciro M and others. The counterfeit decks don't bring the artist or publishers any money, so the industry starts making losses. Eventually, this comes back to us, fewer decks, fewer new creations from our fave artists and more expensive decks to cover the financial losses. The chain in the end goes back to us 😞 . The counterfeit industry doesn't make new content, it just copies it cheaper.

 

 

 

You can get the guidebooks if you ask the seller if you buy new so I was told, which I could nbot try so I have no idea if this is true, or dl it from a lot of different free book sides in most cases, if you really need it. You can check the quality through feedback from other buyers. No doubt, there are really bad copies but none of the ones I got was worse than some of the bad originals, even the heavily used ones. Buying original is not a guarantee for quality, either. I got so many flimsy or too bad to shuffle, too large cards, I'd love to find a cheap copy somewhere to be able to use them. And the quality control for the Chinese stores is actually there, although as I read it it is a very different complaints process. You'd probably never know if you succeed but then you don't with Amazon, either. I got a badly damaged delivery of the Star Trek Tarot from Amazon and it took them half a year to resolve it. I am not buying from Amazon anymore, anyway, but yeah...

 

With all the kickstarters, I have been told everyone  gets their money to begin with, and at least one artist who does not want to be named to not lose copyright said that it is fine for their out of print decks to be copied this way. Which of course is a difference to decks still in print.

 

I prefer buying originals only because of the artists/publishers. However, after my last purchase from LS which was over 600 Euros about 2 years back (I hadn't bought any new deck in 7 years so it was kind of an exeptional mass buy) I realized that I won't have this kind of money anymore so I am going for 2nd hand sales almost exclusively, not that I have much more space for decks. Most of those second hand decks have lost their LWBs or books as well so unless it says in the sale I do not expect them included. I will keep getting rip offs, because most sellers probably never realize they have them. And considering I am going to have even less money in the future, and other people have the same or even worse issues, I can see the market for copies in all areas getting bigger. I know of people who only get the card images from specialized sites and print them to use (although given the price of printing yourself and the work needed to cut them etc I don't see how this is any better unless you really can't get a specific deck). Some do not use physical decks at all and throw the images they can get into card reading tools.

 

The fight against this type of piracy is lost, same as with books and movies. And seriously, if someone does not have 40 bucks to spend on a deck because they need to eat and pay rent, the 5 bucks they spend for a copy is not lost to either the artist or the publisher because they would have never been able to buy it at all. Anyone who has money and deliberately buys rips offs, Mercury curse them.

 

And no, I do not believe in poor people should not have stuff. I believe there are too many people who barely scape by and can use any break they can get, that information needs to be free and creators need to be compensated in different ways for all their work, but I could, and eventually may, write an essay about that because both issues make me really angry.

 

My annoyance with rip off decks is mostly for collectors who want originals and then get fakes. I would have been really really mad had I spent all that money on a load of second hand decks believing they were all original. I doubt Ebay has a useable complaint process, not to think of the logistics of having to send stuff back etc. So, I don't care what I get as long as the quality is ok. If I really really want an original (and yeah there are a bunch), I will save up for it.

[gregory]

4 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

The problem with the "it doesn't really matter" argument is that it has consequences up the chain of deck publishing and eventually affects us.

Some artists have said they won't make new decks after seeing the flood of pirated versions of their previous creations, some have reduced their deck creation because of it. These are some really big names, like Ciro M and others. The counterfeit decks don't bring the artist or publishers any money, so the industry starts making losses. Eventually, this comes back to us, fewer decks, fewer new creations from our fave artists and more expensive decks to cover the financial losses. The chain in the end goes back to us 😞 . The counterfeit industry doesn't make new content, it just copies it cheaper.

 

Exactly this. Artists need the money they get from deck sales to survive and to enable them to make more. Buying counterfeit decks means that real artists give up - or starve in a garret. Which may be "traditional" but isn't much of a life.

 

3 hours ago, Arania said:

The fight against this type of piracy is lost, same as with books and movies. And seriously, if someone does not have 40 bucks to spend on a deck because they need to eat and pay rent, the 5 bucks they spend for a copy is not lost to either the artist or the publisher because they would have never been able to buy it at all. Anyone who has money and deliberately buys rips offs, Mercury curse them.

How does not having money excuse ripping off the artist ?

 

3 hours ago, Arania said:

And no, I do not believe in poor people should not have stuff. I believe there are too many people who barely scrape by and can use any break they can get, that information needs to be free and creators need to be compensated in different ways for all their work, but I could, and eventually may, write an essay about that because both issues make me really angry.

 

How on earth is a creator going to get compensated by someone buying rip-off copies of their work ? Of course poor people should be able to "have stuff" - but not at the expense of other people - creators who may be just as poor as they are.

 

3 hours ago, Arania said:

My annoyance with rip off decks is mostly for collectors who want originals and then get fakes. I would have been really really mad had I spent all that money on a load of second hand decks believing they were all original. I doubt Ebay has a useable complaint process, not to think of the logistics of having to send stuff back etc. So, I don't care what I get as long as the quality is ok. If I really really want an original (and yeah there are a bunch), I will save up for it.

 

 

And people should do hat for every deck they buy. Save for a legit copy. (I am one of those who used to collect in a truly frenzied fashion, and I have certainly had to cut back since I retired. I'm lucky - I can still collect - but I would never knowingly buy a pirated deck (with one notable exception when I was asked to by a creator, to get them all off ebay - they were defective copies stolen from a printer.) IN the example to cite - a load of SECONDHAND decks - that would actually trouble me less, as the damage had already been done by the initial buyer, and the fraudster who printed them off had got away with their money..

 

If you aren't OK finding a deck is pirated after you buy it - why don't you mind buying ones you already know are rip-offs ? Knowing people will buy is what keeps rip-off sellers afloat.

[Misterei]

9 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

15 hours ago, Misterei said:

The online complain went nowhere. Amazon sent a form letter informing me they had investigated and the deck was really a tarot deck. Ummm. Yeah. Gee, thanks. Hence the call to India. LOL that service rep now knows more about tarot decks than he ever wanted to.

Thanks for putting in the effort 🙏

Traditionally these big sites did care about their reputation and take action about this sort of thing 😞 .

@DanielJUK

I know I've mentioned this on similar threads ... but tarots are a spiritual and professional tool. I don't want the karmic burden of rip-off decks polluting my spiritual or professional energy.

I ended up keeping the Lightseers in a tin counterfeit (rather than throw it away or give it away).

I felt that I had "paid" for it with my time and effort to hold Amazon accountable and remove it. I felt my efforts made a karmic balance.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Arania said:

My annoyance with rip off decks is mostly for collectors who want originals and then get fakes. I would have been really really mad had I spent all that money on a load of second hand decks believing they were all original. I doubt Ebay has a useable complaint process, not to think of the logistics of having to send stuff back etc. So, I don't care what I get as long as the quality is ok. If I really really want an original (and yeah there are a bunch), I will save up for it.

 

What I also noticed was that these bogus sellers have also begun exploiting market segmentation vulnerabilities when it comes to pricing. Like for example, the official list price of a Heaven and Earth Tarot deck is $26.95. I know that if I scour a little I can get it cheaper. Amazon currently offers it for only $24.08. The point is, it is reasonable for one to expect to find an original copy for around $20 or so. Heck, an original Tarocchi Piacentini Anima Antiqua is available in Amazon at a 20+% discount. If one sees a brand new copy of the Heaven and Earth for $10 one might immediately think: okay that's a bootleg, I'm avoiding it. But if he sees it priced at around $21, he might just think that he stumbled on a good bargain. 

 

Right now I'm checking out an online selling platform in Asia, and it's available at various price points around $3, $4, $5, $7, $9, $10, etc. It's also available at $19, $20, $28, etc which might sadly snag a well-intentioned noob. And yes, I only included accounts made by actual sellers. If I also considered postings made by what I assume are bots, it will basically span a notable spectrum of price points from the cheap to the normal to the outrageous. 

[Arania]

On 9/10/2023 at 5:21 AM, Akhilleus said:

 

What I also noticed was that these bogus sellers have also begun exploiting market segmentation vulnerabilities when it comes to pricing. Like for example, the official list price of a Heaven and Earth Tarot deck is $26.95. I know that if I scour a little I can get it cheaper. Amazon currently offers it for only $24.08. The point is, it is reasonable for one to expect to find an original copy for around $20 or so. Heck, an original Tarocchi Piacentini Anima Antiqua is available in Amazon at a 20+% discount. If one sees a brand new copy of the Heaven and Earth for $10 one might immediately think: okay that's a bootleg, I'm avoiding it. But if he sees it priced at around $21, he might just think that he stumbled on a good bargain. 

 

Right now I'm checking out an online selling platform in Asia, and it's available at various price points around $3, $4, $5, $7, $9, $10, etc. It's also available at $19, $20, $28, etc which might sadly snag a well-intentioned noob. And yes, I only included accounts made by actual sellers. If I also considered postings made by what I assume are bots, it will basically span a notable spectrum of price points from the cheap to the normal to the outrageous. 

Yes, this is a big problem. And the fakes are even in stores around here, admittedly not in specialized stores. If I really need a specifc deck in the orignal I rather buy directly from LS or wherever. The downside is, I will need to bulk buy to avoid shipping costs so I either need to find someone to buy with me or wait until I want enough decks. Hence the bulk buy I mentioned. Alternatively, bookstore orders work, but of the few small stores around here they do not order specialty items for several reasons.

 

I

[Nemia]

I'm on MJ Cullinane's mailing list, and she addressed the problem of counterfeit decks in an article that I want to link here. It makes absolutely clear how much fake decks matter. If we want creative, high-quality decks made by passionate tarotist-artists, then we have to support them. 

 

This is from her mail:

 

Quote

 

When working with something that holds energy, it's crucial to distinguish between the real and the fake.

As an artist, I pour love and intention into my tarot and oracle decks over the course of several months. But when someone steals my work for profit, that energy is lost.

Recently, I discovered two vendors at a local Witches Market selling fake copies of my Crow Tarot. It's not just my artwork either - several counterfeit decks from other artists were also on display.

This experience inspired me to write a guide for spotting authentic tarot and oracle decks. It's heartbreaking and frustrating to see my work stolen and then profited from.

To ensure you have a legitimate Crow Tarot deck published by US Games, make sure it comes with a physical guidebook, is packaged in a two-piece box, is the correct size, has a reasonable price point, and was purchased directly from the artist or publisher.

IF you purchased it on TEMU - it is FAKE - 100% FAKE.

 

 

[Raggydoll]

@Nemia Thank you for sharing! I feel for all the deck creators out there, the counterfeit industry is really vile. 

[Raggydoll]

I would also like to repeat myself in regards to another aspect of this discussion that is continuously forgotten. The counterfeit industry is not a separate niche. It is closely linked to other criminal activities. This means that when you buy counterfeit products, you are also sponsoring an industry that is guilty of some of the most unspeakable crimes. We are not just talking drugs, but we are talking terrorism and human trafficking.
 

It is bloody awful, that’s what it is. And we mustn’t forget! 

[fire cat pickles]

2 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

We are not just talking drugs, but we are talking terrorism and human trafficking.
 

Spoiler

And weapons/guns trade...

 

[Arania]

This may be the case for luxury stuff like brand clothes (especially shoes), parfumes and the like or even prescription drugs. Definitely not for niche products not able to harm anyone's health. And as I just read up on it, most counterfeit things seem to originate in China still, and I don't think it likely for Chinese sellers to set up mafia-like structures. Most of them seem to be small companies with few workers.

 

It is also impossible to report niche products to law enforcement successfully. I've tried a few times but was basically belittled for bothering. Patrols done in the cities here looking at stalls selling stuff look for clothes and watches , music or games and check safety of toys very carefully, that's it. Even pointing out fake Christmas folklore decorations claiming to be from the best-known German brand took several people and some days to get them to do anything. The reasoning is always that it is too time intensive to check what's fake and what isn't compared to the benefit. And they "can't check the whole Christmas market daily" for cheap Chinese copies of Matthes-products. And the products they take off the street are back the next day.

 

With the cards from the shop I pointed out I got an answer along the lines of "it is just a bit of paper, not worth the bother to try and prove it."

 

From the above linked article I really wonder though. $4 seems awfully low for even a fake deck. Considering the vendors need to make some profit, I wonder how much did they get them for? The shop I tried to report had the decks all priced at around 15€. Which seems reasonable enough for a real deck. With $4 no one really makes any profit.

 

I am kind of curious now how many of the big city occult shops also sell fakes.

 

 

[Raggydoll]

5 hours ago, Arania said:

And as I just read up on it, most counterfeit things seem to originate in China still, and I don't think it likely for Chinese sellers to set up mafia-like structures. Most of them seem to be small companies with few workers.

 

 

Are you not aware of the Chinese triad?

 

But I don’t want to debate this, I’ve said what I wanted to say. 

 

6 hours ago, fire cat pickles said:

  Reveal hidden contents

And weapons/guns trade...

 

Yes, and child labor 😭