Christian iconography and tarot history

[Symph]

Ok the first thing I'd like to say is just @Rose Lalonde I was so happy to learn all you said in your first response about how the Golden Dawn influenced the RWS.  I didn't even realize that Christian Mysticism was a huge interest of Waite but that is amazing to know and makes so much sense now with all the biblical imagery especially in cards like Judgement and The World.  Secondly, I don't feel I am knowledgable enough about the Tarot to really add much to this conversation but I am learning a ton by reading through it so I will definitely be following the progression.  @sixdegrees I will be looking forward to these posts now 🙂

[devin]

Hey Symph, That biblical tarot imagery predates Waite by a few hundred years a least. 

 

Tarot of Jean Noblet circa 1650

 

 

 

[Symph]

16 minutes ago, devin said:

Hey Symph, That biblical tarot imagery predates Waite by a few hundred years a least. 

 

Tarot of Jean Noblet circa 1650

 

 

 

WOW..  How ironic that the Tarot is seen as so "demonic" by the church when clearly the bible and it's themes were heavily influencing it all along...  

[devin]

6 minutes ago, Symph said:

WOW..  How ironic that the Tarot is seen as so "demonic" by the church when clearly the bible and it's themes were heavily influencing it all along...  

Can I get an Amen from the choir!

[gregory]

1 hour ago, Symph said:

WOW..  How ironic that the Tarot is seen as so "demonic" by the church when clearly the bible and it's themes were heavily influencing it all along...  

Symph - seriously - how could you NOT know that since you have been here quite a while....? I thought you had read at least some of the books people suggested to you...

1 hour ago, devin said:

Can I get an Amen from the choir!

I would say Amen, but I don't usually bother for commonly known facts...

[reall]

@sixdegrees oh! thank you for noticing! table did not copy/pas! facepalm inserting it asap!;D

 

I would say Go With All!;D it's always good idea to note it all then you can see where that takes you & you can easy retrace & correct if needed & it's always interesting to see how different ideas evolves?;)

 

I like how well you explain 7! it totally makes sense even im new to your system so looking forward to see how you develop?;D lol

Must say you wold make awesome lwb & much better than usual same old we get with majoritybof mass printed decks!^^ lol

 

p.s did I mention I find Bible iconography& religious ceremonies in general quite "demonic" considering it's considered guidebook for pure & prudent folk?x.x lol

[Symph]

7 hours ago, gregory said:

Symph - seriously - how could you NOT know that since you have been here quite a while....? I thought you had read at least some of the books people suggested to you...

I would say Amen, but I don't usually bother for commonly known facts...

A lot of things I hear and read when in a state of umm... fear or anxiety kind of... I hear them but they don't necessarily sink in, and I knew that there was a lot of religious imagery in the Ryder Waite sure, but I didn't know that it was because he himself was strongly influenced by mysticism.  I assumed it was perhaps because he was relating to the times and how most people would be familiar with those themes, I'm sure I've heard someone explain it more clearly, but I've had a lot of cognitive dissonance making things kind of... be grasped but not hit home so to speak.  

As for books, I would have gotten more of the ones recommended but I've literally been jobless this whole time, perhaps you have seen me say that.  I started my job 3 days ago and the first paycheck will be coming this Friday, that's when I'll be able to actually obtain some of these books you guys have recommended me.  Oh man... I'm gonna need to go back through and be reminded what a lot of them are though I should have written them down lol  I've got "Ronald Hutton" on my board right now but that's cause I just recently started the habit of writing down ideas and such.  🙂

Edit:  Oh and might I add, I started it because of the inspiring reading I last got here hehe

 

 

Oh!  And yeah in all the times I've heard about the history of the Tarot, I never noticed there being images on the pictures earlier than RWS.  I could have sworn I heard that prior to that it was mostly Marseille type decks, and it was RWS who had the idea to put pictures on them.  The fact that they were literally just revamping pictures that already existed is news to me!

Edited February 18, 2020 by Symph

[devin]

53 minutes ago, Symph said:

I could have sworn I heard that prior to that it was mostly Marseille type decks, and it was RWS who had the idea to put pictures on them. 

It's the Marseille minors that have the more abstract designs - coins, cups, etc. The majors have always been illustrated. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by devin

[Symph]

59 minutes ago, devin said:

It's the Marseille minors that have the more abstract designs - coins, cups, etc. The majors have always been illustrated. 

See I just didn't grasp that part, I need to start slowing down and reading things carefully but when my energy is manic I tend to skim.  

[gregory]

Pick one (good) book that you already own and read it. Slowly and with your full attention !

[Symph]

11 minutes ago, gregory said:

Pick one (good) book that you already own and read it. Slowly and with your full attention !

Yeah I'm trying to do that with 78 Degrees of Tarot (though my mentor just told me "drop the books" haha) I'm about halfway through it, but yes, good advice, I need to learn to slow down and absorb, not race through and miss things.  

[gregory]

Your mentor was wrong. Sorry - but books teach the background; there's no getting away from it. If you "just" want to read that's one thing - but you seem to want to understand the background. That's GOOD. You need a book. (And I don't mean your average LWB in the tuckbox.) That's a good one you've picked - not ideal for history, but very good for symbolism etc.

 

Try a good one with historical; background next; I think that sounds like what you need. Cynthia Giles is rather fine on that, covering all teh theories in a very approachable way - and usually DIRT cheap second hand.

 

Yup - in the UK it's on amazon for a whole penny !

 

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Tarot-Complete-Guide-Cynthia-Giles/dp/070905095X/ref=sr_1_2

 

It sometimes shows up under another title, The Tarot: History, Mystery and Lore. She has written another - but that's not the one you need. It is simply amazing how much she managed to cram in to one book.

Edited February 18, 2020 by gregory

[Symph]

23 minutes ago, gregory said:

Your mentor was wrong. Sorry - but books teach the background; there's no getting away from it. If you "just" want to read that's one thing - but you seem to want to understand the background. That's GOOD. You need a book. (And I don't mean your average LWB in the tuckbox.) That's a good one you've picked - not ideal for history, but very good for symbolism etc.

 

Try a good one with historical; background next; I think that sounds like what you need. Cynthia Giles is rather fine on that, covering all teh theories in a very approachable way - and usually DIRT cheap second hand.

 

Yup - in the UK it's on amazon for a whole penny !

 

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Tarot-Complete-Guide-Cynthia-Giles/dp/070905095X/ref=sr_1_2

 

It sometimes shows up under another title, The Tarot: History, Mystery and Lore. She has written another - but that's not the one you need. It is simply amazing how much she managed to cram in to one book.

Edit:  Do you know how to convert the price to USD?  It's in pounds right now and I'm just not sure how that works from the states, also wondering what shipping will be.  I leave for work in 20 minutes so I can't get it worked out right now but I'm gonna be ordering that book tonight!  And just to clarify, I'm pretty sure the reason @peacefulocean said "drop the books" was only temporarily, he's at a stage where he doesn't want outside influences painting my view of the cards just yet, he wants me looking at the pictures and coming to my own conclusions.  I'm sure he didn't mean indefinitely, he's the one who told me to get the books in the first place!  haha

 

Edit: I just re-read what you wrote, you were just letting me know how cheap it is in the UK.  Jeez man why is reading carefully so hard for me? lol  I even had a Tarot reading I did for myself tell me very clearly I needed to "slow down" on all levels.  Still working on it... but yes I'll be getting that book for sure. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Symph

[Rose Lalonde]

4 minutes ago, Symph said:

And just to clarify, I'm pretty sure the reason @peacefulocean said "drop the books" was only temporarily, he's at a stage where he doesn't want outside influences painting my view of the cards just yet, he wants me looking at the pictures and coming to my own conclusions.  I'm sure he didn't mean indefinitely, he's the one who told me to get the books in the first place!  haha

Yes, I do this too. A few exercises looking at card art in combination or doing an ISG style reading before we move on, so I tell them to put down the books. Doesn't mean I'm never going to have them look at books. (I am all about the books, myself).

(Apologies if this is too far off topic for the OP.)

Edited February 18, 2020 by Rose Lalonde

[gregory]

You don't want to buy from the UK anyway. Here it is on the US site:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Tarot-History-Mystery-Lore/dp/0671891014/ref=sr_1_1

 

From $4 used. 

 

Even less if you run with the hardback !

 

 

 

 

[reall]

13 minutes ago, Symph said:

Edit:  Do you know how to convert the price to USD?  It's in pounds right now and I'm just not sure how that works from the states, also wondering what shipping will be.  I leave for work in 20 minutes so I can't get it worked out right now but I'm gonna be ordering that book tonight!  And just to clarify, I'm pretty sure the reason @peacefulocean said "drop the books" was only temporarily, he's at a stage where he doesn't want outside influences painting my view of the cards just yet, he wants me looking at the pictures and coming to my own conclusions.  I'm sure he didn't mean indefinitely, he's the one who told me to get the books in the first place!  haha

 

Edit: I just re-read what you wrote, you were just letting me know how cheap it is in the UK.  Jeez man why is reading carefully so hard for me? lol  I even had a Tarot reading I did for myself tell me very clearly I needed to "slow down" on all levels.  Still working on it... but yes I'll be getting that book for sure. 

just replace co.uk with com & you'll get us$?:) or better check local 2nd hand book market always my fav!^^ lol

 

also must recommend Tarot Beyond the Basics by Louis Anthony!

 

& Yes, Books Are Awesome We Need Books to Learn & Develop! ;D

[gregory]

The thing with that is that you will get the ones for sale in the UK as well - and you don't want to pay that kind of postage !

 

In my experience local shops tend NOT to have our kind of stuff ! I buy in them loads - but rarely find anything tarotish at all.

 

(Beyond the Basics isn't that hot on historical background. What symph seems to have missed along the way is where it all starts and where the Christian symbolism etc kicked in. Giles covers all that and more - and is very readable.)

[katrinka]

@Symph - all you have to do is google "currency converter".
https://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/
 

[gregory]

Sure - but you do NOT want to be ordering from overseas unless you have no option.

[FindYourSovereignty]

On 2/4/2020 at 11:57 PM, sixdegrees said:

The Six of Pentacles indicates UTILIZING RESOURCES. The phrase is easy to see in the image: A wealthy lord carefully measuring and distributing coins to paupers who eagerly receive his gift. The meaning is equally straightforward. The card points to funding or making investments of time or money into particular enterprises, often with the purpose of influencing their eventual development. It could also indicate instances of charity or altruism, though the cynic in me points out that donation still tacitly involves selfish endorsement--an expression of one's personal desires and values that one hopes to see flourish. Whereas the Two might indicate the mere allocation of one's time or money, the Six references the execution of this plan with an eye on some sort of tangible reward.

As I was doing a search on the Six of Pentacles, I came across this thread. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this new system of reading RWS. It is interesting. Your explantation of the Six of Pentacles paralleled several of my own thoughts regarding this image. I am curious about how the scale symbolism fits into your interpretation. I am assuming it is the exchange of the time or money for the tangible reward, but wondering if there is more with the scales than that. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by FindYourSovereignty

[Guest]

@Symph, @gregory Just to clarify, since there appears to be a misunderstanding. I have been encouraging Symph to engage in structured learning and study, including reading a number of books, which he has been doing. My recent suggestion to him to "drop the books" was in the context of  single  exercise I have him doing which has its focus on helping him to develop a personal sense of and confidence in the cards within the traditional framework. I wanted him to respond to my exercise with his own insight rather than rehashing what he has read in books.

I hope this clarifies things for you, @gregory. Be well. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Guest

[gregory]

Fair enough - that wasn't quite the way he put it ! And reading up just oh the history won't hurt a reading exercise, I think ?

[Symph]

Well I get paid on Friday, I'll be able to get the book then whether it's one penny or 5 dollars haha, and yeah that wouldn't hurt anything to read a book on the history, I'm really excited to read it now @gregory it sounds like I will really enjoy it!  I watched a documentary on the history of the Tarot once but a book would be better, and yeah she's right, the shipping from the UK to the US would make the cheap price useless.  But like I said, I can get it Friday regardless 🙂

[xTheHermitx]

replying to this to get it "subbed"...I really like where sixdegrees is going with these interpretations, and am going to add their insight to my notes about he minor arcana!!

[Guest]

9 hours ago, gregory said:

Fair enough - that wasn't quite the way he put it ! And reading up just oh the history won't hurt a reading exercise, I think ?

I think it will be great for him ( and for everyone) @gregory! I'm even thinking about getting it myself! 🙂