Bonestone and Earthflesh Tarot

[Flaxen]

12 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

It is a bit like looking at Benebell Wen now and then trying to fit Holistic tarot into that. It just doesn't gel properly. Not sure if that makes sense but its how I see it. And I don't mean this in a disrespectful way. 

Yes, I can see that. I wonder if it also no longer connects because we are also not the same as we were 3 years ago. My own outlook and studies have taken me further in a particular direction and perhaps it doesn’t resonate any more for this reason too.

 

I also agree with the issues raised here about stories and how they are represented in the cards. 

[AJ-ish/Sharyn]

three years ago was an age ago in how much our eyes have been opened (a very good thing), I suspect the art would be much different now if this deck was re-done. Those blue eyes on the King of Wands in his King Tut outfit... totally looks like all the Jesus paintings white folk have on their walls and in their churches. So Not..

 

Speaking purely about myself, I recognize dozens of ways I've been blind to race because of what I was taught...and what I accepted. And what I've not ever thought about at all.  I used the word black on my blog today, and wondered if that was wrong. Just a color, but in the end I couldn't use it. Three years ago it wouldn't have raised a mental ripple, it is a crayon color. Or lack of color. Or all colors combined. I would never be able to use this deck without a sense of mental horror/anguish.

Edited October 12, 2020 by AJ-ish/Sharyn

[gregory]

ACTUALLY there were - and are  - blue eyed Egyptians, and their gods are at times portrayed with eyes made of lapis lazuli - a blue stone, in case anyone....

 

This kind of thing is why proper searching is needed before trying to depict other cultures we know nothing about. (I only knew this because I researched it myself yesterday after looking at that very card !)

[Raggydoll]

5 minutes ago, gregory said:

ACTUALLY there were - and are  - blue eyed Egyptians, and their gods are at times portrayed with eyes made of lapis lazuli - a blue stone, in case anyone....

 

This kind of thing is why proper searching is needed before trying to depict other cultures we know nothing about. (I only knew this because I researched it myself yesterday after looking at that very card !)

Yes. As someone who draws portraits myself, I am acutely aware of the tricky nature of this topic. Research is important. Live models or reference photos are very helpful. It’s not just about getting hair, skin tone or eye color right, it’s just as important to take into consideration the difference in bone structure and facial features. Too many artists simply add a brown coating to Caucasian features and feel content with that. Sad! (I am not referencing Ana here!) 

[vague-whisperings]

1 hour ago, gregory said:

ACTUALLY there were - and are  - blue eyed Egyptians, and their gods are at times portrayed with eyes made of lapis lazuli - a blue stone, in case anyone....

this is actually something ive seen online. A lot of artists tend to pair nonwhite features with one (1) Caucasian feature (ex. mara from she-ra, katara/sokka from atla), which ive seen pointed out. Like obvs, some people from nonwhite cultures have blonde hair/blue eyes and also nonwhite features, but its also like those nonwhite features arent acceptable/desirable unless that person also has blonde hair or blue eyes. I dont think its terribly common in character design to have entirely nonwhite features tbh

and this is more of a comment generally, its not aimed at anyone specifically;;;; just kinda something to think about ;w;

[gregory]

Well, anyway - blue jewels for the eyes of Gods and VIPs is OK in my book.

[katrinka]

5 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

Too many artists simply add a brown coating to Caucasian features and feel content with that.

 

Yes. It reminds me of those Black Barbies they used to make using the same molds they used for the white ones.

[gregory]

Oh god, I'd forgetting those. Almost as bad as Ken with a smooth crotch....

Edited October 12, 2020 by gregory

[Mi-Shell]

Hi folks!

Today I received an e-mail from a participant in this thread asking me if indeed I do know a Star legend like the one that was presented to you in the Bonestone book.

I myself do not have the book or the deck – I posted about being very interested to get it, but then all the trouble started and I shied away.... I still am interested, but I did not sign up to get it.

So I also received scans of the star legend in question and also a picture of the 3 of Wands with further question if these were runes.....

I also was asked to please post my thoughts here.

So, for all it's worth:

I do not know this legend and looked into all our books on NA legends (37 - 6 of them Star and celestial legends only) and there was/ is nothing like this.

However, that does not mean, it does not exist.

There are a ton of Star legends and very many are tainted by doctrines of christianity, because many First Nations People became christians and sanitized and changed their legends, ifffff they kept them at all....

What I personally do have a rising suspicion of with this is, that this is a "legend" made up, to replace the all powerful Native Symbol of the Eagle as a Guardian of the East with the christian Star.

There are many such "legends", some written up and published by the churches and re-told on the pulpit even today......

To the 3 of Wands:

I am really wondering,

Why is the one guy playing something that looooooks like a djembe' African style?? No NA tribe traditionally plays drum like this and none of them use any none traditional instruments in ceremony. 

However, I do know quite a few NA folks, that play djembe' better than me and also in a band.....  Would one wearing regalia, play drum like this while a compatriot gets giant glyphs scarred onto the back?  2020 is a crazzzzzy year, but....?

 What kind of movie was the deck creator watching?

 

Well, the ritual scarification????? Symbols like these are found on many petroglyph and pictograph sites.... 

And then I do have the sinking feeling, that these ones are like the ones from an Oracle deck called "Sacred Glyphs” and ascribed to NA culture and all the description about them in the accompanying book are – made up....??

Symbols like these Peter and me however saw last year at the little known Jefferson Geo-glyph site , carved into the back of Mother Earth the Turtle.... So runes??? I think not and may have to dig up and size a few pictures.....

 

I since read what a few of you guys were wondering about another card or 2:

So I will share, that I do know a young Gypsy woman named Chary, short for Charity and her daughter called Chasy for Chastity.....

As some of you know, I am half Siberian indigenous and the other half is Sinti / Manoushe – from Elizza's Clan, the Usari -

For me to say I am part Gypsy is a badge of pride and resilience!

For many Gypsies.

We call up to the fore the fact, that we are survivors of the Holocaust. My mom and my gran were survivors of a concentration camp.

We do / never used the name "wanderer" we do not wander - as in from where to where??! We are these despised people others tried to exterminate but we are still here!

I know, this is and feels and is completely different for Romani that live in GB and never went through that horror the way many other European Romani and other tribes did.

    Some times, when people try to be "political correct", they stumble too far the other way.....

Just like the Native Americans nowadays hate all the words used to refer to them these days, especially because different tribes do have different views on how they like to be refereed to today - aaaand it all may change by tomorrow morning....

Case in point is today = NOT “Happy Thanksgiving Day" in Canada.....

Blessing to you all anyway!♥

Mi-Shell

Edited October 13, 2020 by Mi-Shell

[Raggydoll]

@Mi-Shell those are not petroglyphs, they are the runes Ing/Ingwaz, Jara/Jera and Algiz, respectively. They are the runes for male fertility/the seed, the seasons/female fertility, and the animal kingdom/animal helpers/the elk. 

 

[Raggydoll]

Okay, so to figure this Three of wands thing out once and for all, here are the original bonestone videos and some of the transcripts. 

 

In this video they show the first sketch and discuss the idea for this card. 

 

 

They initially wanted there to be tribal tattoos but that obviously changed. I am adding a bit of the initial transcript where they planned it out, so you can see how it started:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then Ana shows her first sketch and they continue talking. The auto transcript isn't very good so just watch the video on those time stamps and you get the idea. Avalon is the one saying that they have to make sure they get it right if they depict native and she is googling some details to find out more. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And then in a later video, which I will also link, we get to see the final image and they reveal that they have changed the tribal symbols to runes. 

 

 

Here is the transcript where they mention the runes 

 

 

Ana does later also explain the runes. The transcript didn't work well at that point so I have just typed out what I hear her saying (around 14 + minutes in)

 

Ana: "Again, we did the runes and I will have to read them for you because now I can't remember which ones they are but they are significant they mean something. (Pause)

So let me read to  you what the runes are. Avalon, do you have - I sent you an email and I wrote in that email I have sent you the text with what they were. I wrote them down. . (Ana looks it up).

Alright so we have Algiz and Ingwaz for living and Jera for harvest." 
 

I would think that this means that the Star card is also representative of their own made up “Bonestone tribe”, so it would not be a real legend. 

 

[katrinka]

That's just...disturbing.

[gregory]

2 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

Okay, so to figure this Three of wands thing out once and for all, here are the original bonestone videos and some of the transcripts. 

 

<snip>

Ana does later also explain the runes. The transcript didn't work well at that point so I have just typed out what I hear her saying (around 14 + minutes in)

 

Ana: "Again, we did the runes and I will have to read them for you because now I can't remember which ones they are but they are significant they mean something. (Pause)

So let me read to  you what the runes are. Avalon, do you have - I sent you an email and I wrote in that email I have sent you the text with what they were. I wrote them down. . (Ana looks it up).

Alright so we have Algiz and Ingwaz for living and Jera for harvest." 
 

I would think that this means that the Star card is also representative of their own made up “Bonestone tribe”, so it would not be a real legend. 

 

Oh dear

[fire cat pickles]

Wasn't there another deck that, in an attempt to offend no one, offended everyone?

[Raggydoll]

7 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said:

Wasn't there another deck that, in an attempt to offend no one, offended everyone?

I think I know which one you mean, but I strongly suggest we don't open that particular (and off topic) Pandoras box back up again 😅 😆

 

 

[gregory]

There was that one which the creator withdrew before completion. I didn't feel she really GOT why it was a bad idea, but at least it's gone.

 

This one though - the issues are FAR deeper than "trying not to cause offence" - no thought seems to have gone into a lot of it - just "this is the picture I want, so do this." Not to mention the book. The other decks I can recall were sort of trying to get it right and made it all catastrophically worse.

 

That djembe image is bad too - and has been discussed to death in threads about other decks - SO many artists paint First Nation people drumming in the way African people do - and First Nation do NOT drum that way. Even I know that.... And anyone who's into tarot MUST have seen it come up in reviews and discussions. I haven't time just now, but I am aware of at least three major publisher decks that got it wrong....

[FindYourSovereignty]

19 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

Yes. As someone who draws portraits myself, I am acutely aware of the tricky nature of this topic. Research is important. Live models or reference photos are very helpful. It’s not just about getting hair, skin tone or eye color right, it’s just as important to take into consideration the difference in bone structure and facial features. Too many artists simply add a brown coating to Caucasian features and feel content with that. Sad! (I am not referencing Ana here!) 

 

I agree that real research needs to be made for the many features and characteristics. It seems that the time was not given to do this very important detail of the deck.

 

[ilweran]

2 hours ago, gregory said:

Oh dear

I was about to say that.

 

I think if the leg work had been put in to have an actual fictional, fleshed out Bonestone tribe rather than 'I want to do this and I need a quick excuse' it could have been awesome if done well. Like Tarot of the Cat People which has it's whole fictional world.

 

Oh well, somewhere in an alternate universe...

[FindYourSovereignty]

 

@Raggydoll, thank you for taking the time to post all of this here and do the research. I feel deflated with how much build-up this deck has/had to being so special and so tuned in. It felt like it was supposed to be the deck of all decks because the effort of making sure everything was accurately represented was being made only to find out, it wasn't anything like that at all.

 

 

2 hours ago, gregory said:

This one though - the issues are FAR deeper than "trying not to cause offence" - no thought seems to have gone into a lot of it - just "this is the picture I want, so do this." Not to mention the book. The other decks I can recall were sort of trying to get it right and made it all catastrophically worse.

 

I agree with much of what you've written and especially the bold italics as in there obviously was thought as to what Karen wanted, but not a lot of thought in accurate details at all. After watching some parts of these Bonestone Bashes, it definitely appears that Karen just found images she liked and had Ana putting in what she wanted whether they were accurate or not. I feel a need to watch all the bashes now to better understand the deck and where they have miserably missed the mark, but am not sure I want to bother. My deck arrives today and I don't even want to open it. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by FindYourSovereignty

[FindYourSovereignty]

2 minutes ago, ilweran said:

I think if the leg work had been put in to have an actual fictional, fleshed out Bonestone tribe rather than 'I want to do this and I need a quick excuse' it could have been awesome if done well. Like Tarot of the Cat People which has it's whole fictional world.

 

Interesting thought here. 

[FindYourSovereignty]

23 hours ago, Flaxen said:

Yes, I can see that. I wonder if it also no longer connects because we are also not the same as we were 3 years ago. My own outlook and studies have taken me further in a particular direction and perhaps it doesn’t resonate any more for this reason too.

 

I suppose this can happen with any deck, we just haven't actually had this one in hand so in some ways the deck itself has lost some of the original appeal. 

 

Is this the hazard of creators including people so closely with their creations? I think of other decks, even just older decks that haven't had the opportunity to have so much customer involvement or awareness and think some of those decks took ten years or more to create, but we are still connecting with them today. I just didn't know about those decks and wasn't involved in their creation. 

 

So much to consider with this one.

[Raggydoll]

1 hour ago, ilweran said:

I was about to say that.

 

I think if the leg work had been put in to have an actual fictional, fleshed out Bonestone tribe rather than 'I want to do this and I need a quick excuse' it could have been awesome if done well. Like Tarot of the Cat People which has it's whole fictional world.

 

Oh well, somewhere in an alternate universe...

I agree. What bothers me is that nowhere in the book can I find information that tells me what part of the myths are true to traditional sources and what’s made up. There are no cited sources and no mentioning of things like this invented bonestone tribe, so all we have to go on are the images and the words - which for that particular card highly suggest First Nation spirituality. Another thing is the intro/binding spell. It talks about secret knowledge handed down through ages. That implies that we are not looking at things that were made up. So idk 🤷🏻‍♀️
 

[Raggydoll]

1 hour ago, FindYourSovereignty said:

 

@Raggydoll, thank you for taking the time to post all of this here and do the research. I feel deflated with how much build-up this deck has/had to being so special and so tuned in. It felt like it was supposed to be the deck of all decks because the effort of making sure everything was accurately represented was being made only to find out, it wasn't anything like that at all.

 

 

 

I agree with much of what you've written and especially the bold italics as in there obviously was thought as to what Karen wanted, but not a lot of thought in accurate details at all. After watching some parts of these Bonestone Bashes, it definitely appears that Karen just found images she liked and had Ana putting in what she wanted whether they were accurate or not. I feel a need to watch all the bashes now to better understand the deck and where they have miserably missed the mark, but am not sure I want to bother. My deck arrives today and I don't even want to open it. 

You’re welcome 🙂 The thing with me is I don’t like to speculate, so I try to learn the truth. I hope you are able to put all thoughts aside and open your deck with fresh eyes. You might get excited about it again. And if you do then that’s good! It’s a beautiful deck! 

[katrinka]

42 minutes ago, FindYourSovereignty said:

Is this the hazard of creators including people so closely with their creations? I think of other decks, even just older decks that haven't had the opportunity to have so much customer involvement or awareness and think some of those decks took ten years or more to create, but we are still connecting with them today. I just didn't know about those decks and wasn't involved in their creation. 

There's an old saying: "A giraffe is a horse put together by a committee." 😉

I think a fictional Bonestone tribe would best be left to an actual Native person to create. Researching isn't the same as growing up and living in a culture. Even people with the best intentions tend to fail at things like that. And Avalon and Ana have already shown that they don't care, in no uncertain terms. The deck is full of dog whistles, too many to be accidents.

And as for the binding spell, "unfaithful eyes"? I think our eyes are being honest with us. They're giving us the unvarnished truth, unpleasant though it is.

[Mi-Shell]

9 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

@Mi-Shell those are not petroglyphs, they are the runes Ing/Ingwaz, Jara/Jera and Algiz, respectively. They are the runes for male fertility/the seed, the seasons/female fertility, and the animal kingdom/animal helpers/the elk. 

 

 

Holy Smokes!!!

♥♥♥ @Raggydoll!♥♥♥

That is shocking to me!

First I thought, the deck creator had carefully chosen THESE Symbols because they appear on NA as well as other people's ancient petroglyph and pictograph sites AND also maybe = make that  ARE (thanks, Raggy ♥ ) runes.....

Stupid little me........

 

What kind of a deck is this?

Will you guys be able to read with it AFTER all this came to light?