The sun is not a happy card for me: Here’s why

[KadenLena]

Instead of the meaning of joy and vitality I have my own personal meaning associated with this card. This card represents my mental illness, schizophrenia. I’ve found this card always always pops up when doing readings for my illness. Does anyone know why such a positive card can carry such meaning?

[gregory]

No single card is "positive" or "negative".

 

Sun can warm or burn. IT can be great, or TOO MUCH. It's not so much how can such a card carry such meaning; it;s more that you perhaps need, in general, to stop thinking of any card as positive or negative. I get that it holds that meaning for you when on its own - but context matters in a reading. Before 10 Swords, it might suggest something "burning" will happen, leading to a nasty ending; after that same card it might suggest that the sun will come out and put an end to the pain.

[Grace]

Hi @KadenLena! I wouldn't characterise any card as completely positive or negative, but as telling a story and representing a particular kind of energy. I understand how the sun card specifically could be misconstrued in the two dimensional bright, light, warm, inviting and life giving dictionary definition. Of course it can mean those things, but as Gregory pointed out, context is key. I have however always seen the major arcana as positive, in the sense that it implies a significant lesson, life stage or transition. While these kinds of lessons can be painful or uncomfortable, they don't have to be and it's often a matter of perspective. I don't know very much about schizophrenia, but I hope it represents a more happy and positive meaning for you in future!

[and_it_spoke]

Mental illness bring it's own set of challenges and forced perspective changes, @KadenLena. The texture of the card and the synchronicity you experience with it - yeah, I can see why you'd have a negative association with the card.

 

I like how @gregory said it:

 

Quote

Sun can warm or burn. IT can be great, or TOO MUCH. 

 

The neat thing about tarot - to me - is that there are so many ways to read the cards in conjunction to each other. There are cards that "spook" me me, personally. I use the forced perspective change trick (that mental illnesses of all types use against their owners) to make myself look at a card I may have bias towards from the card next to its perspective.

 

For example: 7 of Swords. This card skeeves me out and makes me uncomfortable. And in many cases, that's warranted, as it typically indicates betrayal. But lets put that card next to the 2 of Swords, a card indicating a decision to be made. From the 'either or' perspective of the 2 of Swords, the 7 could be read as finding a loophole or cleverly finding a way to have you cake and eat it, too!

 

So, yes, I can see why a positive card would carry a negative meaning on an individual basis. But remember to set those feeling aside when reading for others, and when reading for yourself always see if you can try on a new perspective when viewing the card. You may end up with a much more nuanced and complex relationship with that card and what it says about you.

 

 

[Mi-Shell]

Could it maybe be, that You are "coming up", coming forth to shine, prevail every day, in spite of adversity and personal struggles?

You could also practice to see situations in the light of child-like innocence, leave darker notions and thoughts behind and move forward on your own personal path.....

♥ 🌞

[CarrieB]

The sun has two functions - to shine and to warm. Often it performs only one function - shining. And so it's inventions  remain unfulfilled - it only shines and blinds us, because we are impressed, literally blinded by our desires - we can't really see the facts, staring at  the sun. The sun could realize it's potential on a powerful card, next to pentacles.

[Guest]

The Sun has a very simple meaning for me, you are happy and or you just have made someone happy. 

 

As far as timing; it isn’t always Leo dates, timing wise, the summer, hottest month of the year August. Or a date/time of day (depending on your intuition) that falls on the 19, 10 - 1 to 9 days / January, September and October. It depends on how you feel about the question. 

[Styx]

I know that the symbology of the Sun is supposed to make it a very positive card, but I've personally never felt it this way. First because the Sun makes me thing of heat and sweating and I LOVE winter and the night time.

But the sun isn't a 100% positive symbol if we have a look at mythology and history either. In Greek mythology, Apollo, god of the arts, is associated with the sun ; he is also associated with reason and logic (very masculine qualities in Ancient Greece) and can be extremely cruel to those who oppose him. We have inherited a very romantic view of art and creativity: we tend to associate it with singularity, individual sensibility and even eccentricity. But in ancient Greece, art was order and balance and Apollo flayed Marsyas for challenging his divine music with his own, terrestrial one. The sun nourished all life but to me, he is also associated with this form of perfect, potentially oppressive order.

I'm French and we are told over and over in school of the greatness of Louis XIV, also known as the Sun King. He was a remarkable ruler, extraordinarily determined and clever, but could also be pitiless, waged war throughout his long reign and had many workers killed because of the building of his beautiful Versailles in a swamp. He wanted to be a Sun to his subjects, to show them that they depended entirely on his good will.

I could definitely see the Sun as meaning painful order imposed on someone, or the difficulty of maintaining this order to be "happy".

[katrinka]

56 minutes ago, Styx said:

I know that the symbology of the Sun is supposed to make it a very positive card, but I've personally never felt it this way. First because the Sun makes me thing of heat and sweating and I LOVE winter and the night time.

 

I'm a night/winter person, too. We just now got out of the triple digits here. The sun is loathesome and I avoid it when at all possible.

But the card itself is overwhelmingly positive. No sun = everything dies. It's not about my personal inability to tolerate heat, it's a symbol.

[AlbaTross]

As others have said, I don't subscribe to the notion that a card is inherently positive or negative.  Death is actually one of my favourite cards, in spite of it being off-putting to the uninitiated.  As for The Sun, I would say it's possible it's not all sunshine, so to speak.  I'm sure there are contexts where it's not as positive a card as it might seem.  On the other hand, having negative associations with cards can make them seem more negative than they might otherwise be.  As has also been brought up, the context of the actual reading is important.  The meaning of the card is generally multi-faceted too, so perhaps you're focusing on negative aspects of the card's meaning while failing to notice what else the card may be trying to tell you. 

 

To be clear, I'm not saying you shouldn't trust your intuition with cards like The Sun.  That's definitely more important than whatever general reading is attached to the card.  What I am saying is, it's possible that you expect the card to tell you something negative, and so, that's how you read it whenever it comes up.  I'm not saying that's the wrong way to read it either.  Again, it's important to take context into account.  But, it does sound to me like you will see The Sun as negative no matter what other cards appear in the reading, or what you have asked.  I myself am guilty of making assumptions about cards, and I have let that influence how I read them in the past, so if that's how you approach The Sun, you're not alone in that regard.  However, it is a factor that can most certainly muddle a reading if you let it.  

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, AlbaTross said:

As others have said, I don't subscribe to the notion that a card is inherently positive or negative.  Death is actually one of my favourite cards, in spite of it being off-putting to the uninitiated.  As for The Sun, I would say it's possible it's not all sunshine, so to speak.  I'm sure there are contexts where it's not as positive a card as it might seem. 

 

Well yes, you want some water in the spread or you might get wasteland, desert.
Anything can have a downside. But overall, it's a good card, one I like to see. And I DO categorize cards as positive, neutral, or negative. Doing otherwise makes them ALL neutral, and the questions don't get answered.
 

1 hour ago, AlbaTross said:

To be clear, I'm not saying you shouldn't trust your intuition with cards like The Sun.  That's definitely more important than whatever general reading is attached to the card. 

 

But the OP stated that they use a personal meaning, and that they personally prefer night and winter. Intuition is more like instinct and gut feelings. There is a difference, they're talking about a preference.
I forget where I saw this, but I've seen that called a PAM: personally assigned meaning. If you decide the Sun is bad and you're consistent with it, the cards will answer you that way.
It would make a mess of the correspondences, but if you don't use any I suppose there's no real harm done. Still, I don't recommend it. Tarot is kind of a genius system. I wouldn't monkey with it.
 

 

[Grandma]

31 minutes ago, katrinka said:

And I DO categorize cards as positive, neutral, or negative. Doing otherwise makes them ALL neutral, and the questions don't get answered.

 

I don't think so.  Not categorizing cards as positive or negative does not make them all neutral.  It makes them all full of possibility, of nuance.  It gives them all the potential to be positive, negative or neutral in a given reading.  

[_R_]

The above comments all capture the nuance present in the card, whether from the aspect of traditional meanings, or of symbolic interpretation.

Just to add a brief note to this, from the visual perspective of the French TdM decks, if we look closely at the image, it appears as though the figure to the viewer’s right is grasping the other person by the neck and attempting to make them move in a certain direction, that which the left hand is pointing to : downwards, behind, and to the left.

The person to the viewer’s left is responding by prodding the other person in the solar plexus and assuming a somewhat defensive posture.

Tchalaï, whose insights this interpretation is based on, says that this card can thus represent being forced into something “for one’s own good,” or the kind of love that imposes constraints. She also points out that the first figure is holding the other one by the neck (seat of the limbic system that regulates core behaviour).

[katrinka]

26 minutes ago, Grandma said:

 

I don't think so.  Not categorizing cards as positive or negative does not make them all neutral.  It makes them all full of possibility, of nuance.  It gives them all the potential to be positive, negative or neutral in a given reading.  

 

But if it's all those things, it's neutral. The yeses and no's would cancel each other out.
Getting the Sun as an answer to, for example, "Will I get the job?", instead of a resounding "yes", would be a non-answer: "Yes...or no. Maybe...I don't know." The cards would lose their functions.

 

14 minutes ago, _R_ said:

The above comments all capture the nuance present in the card, whether from the aspect of traditional meanings, or of symbolic interpretation.

Just to add a brief note to this, from the visual perspective of the French TdM decks, if we look closely at the image, it appears as though the figure to the viewer’s right is grasping the other person by the neck and attempting to make them move in a certain direction, that which the left hand is pointing to : downwards, behind, and to the left.

The person to the viewer’s left is responding by prodding the other person in the solar plexus and assuming a somewhat defensive posture.

Tchalaï, whose insights this interpretation is based on, says that this card can thus represent being forced into something “for one’s own good,” or the kind of love that imposes constraints. She also points out that the first figure is holding the other one by the neck (seat of the limbic system that regulates core behaviour).

 

And Jodorowsky, oddly, deviated from that and said the figure on the left is blind, and the figure on the right is leading him.
By the neck. Jodo's crazy sometimes. 😁

[_R_]

6 minutes ago, katrinka said:

And Jodorowsky, oddly, deviated from that and said the figure on the left is blind, and the figure on the right is leading him.
By the neck. Jodo's crazy sometimes. 😁

That is odd, and I didn't remember that particular spin. If anything, it shows not only the multiplicity of possible interpretations by different authors (or readers) looking at the same card(s), but also something of their own character, a factor one might perhaps want to take into account when starting out studying them.

[katrinka]

Exactly. Best to keep in mind that it's a bit of a Rorschach test. It can say more about the author than it does about the intent of the artist.

[AlbaTross]

3 hours ago, katrinka said:

 

Well yes, you want some water in the spread or you might get wasteland, desert.
Anything can have a downside. But overall, it's a good card, one I like to see. And I DO categorize cards as positive, neutral, or negative. Doing otherwise makes them ALL neutral, and the questions don't get answered.
 

 

But the OP stated that they use a personal meaning, and that they personally prefer night and winter. Intuition is more like instinct and gut feelings. There is a difference, they're talking about a preference.
I forget where I saw this, but I've seen that called a PAM: personally assigned meaning. If you decide the Sun is bad and you're consistent with it, the cards will answer you that way.
It would make a mess of the correspondences, but if you don't use any I suppose there's no real harm done. Still, I don't recommend it. Tarot is kind of a genius system. I wouldn't monkey with it.
 

 

Ah, I see.  I haven't been doing this long enough to develop things like personal meanings, but that makes sense.  I guess I'm still learning new things regarding Tarot. 🙂

[TheLoracular]

On 4/12/2020 at 5:48 AM, KadenLena said:

Instead of the meaning of joy and vitality I have my own personal meaning associated with this card. This card represents my mental illness, schizophrenia. I’ve found this card always always pops up when doing readings for my illness. Does anyone know why such a positive card can carry such meaning?

I don't have any personal experience with schizophrenia, but I have experienced it showing up quite often in regards to the hyper-manic extreme of bipolar disorder and serving as a warning that the state of exaltation, the power and glory and "I can do this and this and this" is amazing but not a state of wellness.   And I think that the ecstatic mystical state of visions and spiritual highs and such that can be part of "The Sun experience" ~might~ correspond to some of the symptoms of schizophrenia as well.  I love the Sun card but I also see it can create illusion of perception and people who are embodying its underlying attributes too long/too exclusively often need some serious grounding and reality checks (especially me).  

[Guest]

Expanded consciousness I suppose. Seeing beyond the physical, can also indicate having an overload of energy which may trigger an episode. Do you find your condition to be triggered through lack of sleep, forgetting to eat, euphoric states, anything situation where you feel emotional overwhelm? The Sun is a very ungrounded card, which for most people is fine because ecstasy every now and again doesn't hurt. But if it means your energy is doing strange things to your head....

[katrinka]

I don't find the Sun to be particularly manic or ungrounded.

 

Therer's a downside, sure. But nothing like that. 

Waite:
https://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/pktar19.htm

And here's a Thoth interpretation:

https://www.corax.com/tarot/cards/sun.html

[Hedera]

Yes, the Sun can absolutely be manic in my experience; if you read from the images (and I do), even more so in the RWS version posted above than in, say, the Thoth.

 

It depends on context: the question asked, the position, the surrounding cards, the deck that is used.

 

In a recent reading I did for myself, it showed up as hot flashes; seeing the naked baby here made me laugh, turns out the RWS imagery is at least as appropriate for that as the deck I was using

 

Edit: I would consider mania or ungroundedness to be more of a shadow side of the Sun - odd term in this context! 😉

Edited February 14, 2021 by Hedera

[Moomintroll]

Besides the already mentioned valid facts and viewpoints the following came to my mind.

I’m along the lines of Michelle here.

For me, the cards more than often give me advice and not any fatalistic facts that are coming to be.

The sun card here could have that advising function and is trying to give you that kind of advice that you most need in these situations.

If you are beginning to feel unreasonable fears, fobias, internal chaos or fragmentation rising - then the sun could ask you to make the effort to bring the light of consciousness and healthy dose of detachment to these issues.

It could reassure you that you are under the divine guidance and in the safe place inside that secure wall that is often shown in sun cards. To strenghten those ”walls”, your boundaries.

It could ask you to see the true worth and uniqueness of your core identity that nobody can deny or take away from you. You have to claim your internal light for yourself and not be distracted by other people or their opinions.

You have to ignore the cultural programming, its values or beliefs that try to keep you powerless.

Maybe it tells you that you are already so healthy and courageous inside that you need to make the effort to shift your perspective from the darkness and unconsciousness of the moon and bring all that unconscious stuff to the sunlight and unload it so that your true light could shine.

And, about those remarks of the Marseilles twins. If the twins symbolize the conscious and unconscious parts of the personality then the other, more conscious, or divine twin should support that more insecure(ego?) twin and not other way around.

 

Edited: I want to add that I don’t like that people get  labels even if they are diagnozes. There are the danger that they become like fake identities that make people feel inferior. In worst cases they can prevent persons rights, freedom, credibility and growth.

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Moomintroll

[AlbaTross]

I'm glad this discussion has been revisited, because I swear, if there's one card I have mostly positive associations with that most frequently shows up in negative positions in readings, it's The Sun.😁  It always trips me up every time too.  But, it has given me time to reflect on the less positive aspects.  Too much exposure is one such thing.  Being out in the sun is great, but staying out too long can lead to sunburns.  A real-world parallel (besides the sunburn metaphor) might be spending too much time around other people, and not having enough time to oneself.  @katrinka That desert analogy also makes sense.  I'm not usually so great at determining the elements of Major cards, but The Sun is definitely fire-based.  Too much fire and not enough water can lead to an imbalance, hence, a desert.  The opposite of that would be a flood, so I suppose it's not the element itself that's the issue so much as moderation.  I'll have to spend more time reflecting on the "dark side" of The Sun though.  Opportunities arise periodically.  It's almost as if they find me rather than having to purposefully seek them out.  

[Guest]

I see the Sun as a positive-rated card, e.g. it facilitates.  That does not mean it cannot indicate a negative situation or a problematic area.

 

For me, it is the card of love, fertility and children.  It is not uncommon to see it with the God-House/Tower or Sword cards in separations, especially if they do not take it well. 

 

I do not associate the trumps with elements.   If we did we would have to remember that the Sun is moderately hot as it is vital for life.   It is life giver and the Spirit (the Moon being the body).   That is in contrast to Mars, who is excessively hot, and contrary to life.    

[Grizabella]

I haven't read all the answers yet but in certain situations, the Sun can represent enlightenment.  Is there something you might not know in the most current research on schizophrenia?  I don't know the questions you've asked or whether  you've used named positions in your spreads but you might consider researching some of the most up-to-date studies done on this. Maybe the Sun card is trying to tell you to take a closer look?