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A good beginner's Lenormand deck and book

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FLizarraga
Posted (edited)
On 5/11/2020 at 2:37 PM, leroidetrèfle said:

Yes.  

 

Over time the consistency between different Petit Lenormands led to an iconographical complacency.  However, all the so-called traditional meanings are strongly tied to the pictures.

 

For example, why did the Anchor become a symbol of harbours?  It's on one.  Why did the "Fishes" become a symbol of abundance and variety?  There is usually lots of different fish.  Why did the Lilies become associated with a clear complexion and fair hair?  They are shown white and yellow.  Why did the Birds become sweethearts and pregnancy? Nesting doves...

 

Add to that there is a strong folklore to the cards.  Look at the Stork with her frog.  That's from the Frog King.  The Stork neutralises the Serpent card. Later telling's replaced the water serpent with a stork.  

 

The playing cards are German.  However, the German-speaking countries were aware of the court cards' French titles/associations.  Over time these have definitely been absorbed.  King David and the Lilies, Judith and Stork, et cetera.  

 

Also, most modern decks have failed to look at how many traditional decks use the same motifs on cards that are connected.  The Boat, the Fishes, the Anchor all usually share the same landscape. 

 

You will get a few eccentric traditional decks.  The Stralsunder Lenormand has red lilies.  The Schmid has a goldish bowl on the Fishes.  But these decks have never achieved the same prominence of the Brepols, the Dondorf and the Rote/Blaue Eule.  

 

I like the Gilded.  I liked the Maybe and the Rana George. 

 

@leroidetrèfle Your observations on the cards are eye-opening to me, but I suppose they refer to a particular traditional deck --or is it several?

Edited by FLizarraga

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leroidetrèfle
Posted (edited)
On 6/8/2020 at 2:46 PM, FLizarraga said:

@leroidetrèfle Your observations on the cards are eye-opening to me, but I suppose they refer to a particular traditional deck --or is it several?

Yes; it’s derived from the traditional patterns. You will find the observations accord with the Brepols, Dondorf, Blaue Eule and the Piatnik, &c, patterns.

 

It is an ahistorical stance to claim that prior to the 1990s all Lenormand decks were uniform. They were not. However, there was a consistency, and the more unusual variations did not seem to ever enjoy lengthy print runs.

 

Cartomancy is the practice of semiotics. If you change the High Tower to a Skyscraper, then you change the meaning. Similarly, you cannot predict a muscular brunette if the Bear card is a polar bear or panda bear. 

Edited by leroidetrèfle

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FLizarraga
21 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Yes; it’s derived from the traditional patterns. You will find the observations accord with the Brepols, Dondorf, Blaue Eule and the Piatnik, &c, patterns.

 

It is an ahistorical stance to claim that prior to the 1990s all Lenormand decks were uniform. They were not. However, there was a consistency, and the more unusual variations did not seem to ever enjoy lengthy print runs.

 

Cartomancy is the practice of semiotics. If you change the High Tower to a Skyscraper, then you change the meaning. Similarly, you cannot predict a muscular brunette if the Bear card is a polar bear or panda bear. 

One of the reasons I have pretty much shied away from Lenormand so far is the fact that every single book (or reader) basically assigns completely different meanings to the cards, so in order to learn using a particular book I have to ignore all others. Which drives me nuts and turns me off.

 

For the first time, your posts on this thread has given me hope, as I can see where the original meanings came from. So basically you could learn Lenormand by working with one of these traditional decks and REALLY looking at the images.

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katrinka
5 hours ago, FLizarraga said:

So basically you could learn Lenormand by working with one of these traditional decks and REALLY looking at the images.

I'd still suggest studying a book along with that. Not multiple sources, courses, videos and blogs - a lot of them are contradictory, or just plain bad - but one good book, like Andy's.

Otherwise you run the risk of simply reading off the pictures, rather than penetrating to the core essences. It's helpful to have something you can check from time to time, to make sure you haven't gone off the rails. And the images are old, so it might take some additional information to understand what we're looking at.

A lot of people, for instance, assume that the Birchrods are some kind of whisk broom. Modern deck creators who should know better have even put brooms in their decks. But it's a birchrod bundle, used for punishment. It's got nothing to do with cleaning or witchcraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birching
 

When you see that crossed with a whip, the intent is unmistakable - it's strife!

 

Capture.JPG.00437f6cd03f1e7dc6506a62b5ec16ec.JPG

Or this Dondorf Dog:

00i.jpg.16aaa58cce766206ac6374a2d063b054.jpg

 

To our modern sensibilities, a tethered dog with a dry bone and no water is a clear case of abuse and neglect. But those are not Dog meanings. In the 19th century, Lurcher-type dogs (like this one) were highly valued since they kept food on the table. This dog hasn't been tethered and forgotten.

So a book is good to fall back on. 😉

 

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leroidetrèfle

Over time, an unfortunate habit has been cultivated whereby words are used interchangeably, e.g., psychic and clairvoyant, emotion and feeling, clearing and cleaning, &c.

 

The Birch Rod can indicate a ”clearing of the air” whereby one sits down and airs grievances and solutions are thrashed out. Quite a few of the older patterns (including the GoH) actually showed the birch rod on a table. This itself is a progression of the judicial birch and hearings.
 

If you asked about it matter of arte, clearing can still apply.  Most of the time, however, it would point more to control, punishment, et cetera. One would not see the knave of clubs/Birch Rod and think to get the broom out. 

 

I’ve always associated the Hound card with employees and assistants —because it’s a working dog. Working dogs were indeed prized for their skills, as @katrinka states. The kennel (the dogs home) is in the garden of the owner. It’s a house adjacent to yours. That’s why it can indicate one’s neighbours. 

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katrinka
1 hour ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Over time, an unfortunate habit has been cultivated whereby words are used interchangeably, e.g., psychic and clairvoyant, emotion and feeling, clearing and cleaning, &c.

 

The Birch Rod can indicate a ”clearing of the air” whereby one sits down and airs grievances and solutions are thrashed out. Quite a few of the older patterns (including the GoH) actually showed the birch rod on a table. This itself is a progression of the judicial birch and hearings.

I like that.
You're clearing up issues, not sweeping the floor.
Sometimes it's best to get things "on the table." You have to remember that what the card is referring to can often sting, even if it's just words. But it's still necessary.

1 hour ago, leroidetrèfle said:

I’ve always associated the Hound card with employees and assistants —because it’s a working dog. Working dogs were indeed prized for their skills, as @katrinka states. The kennel (the dogs home) is in the garden of the owner. It’s a house adjacent to yours. That’s why it can indicate one’s neighbours. 

I think most dogs had jobs in those days. Hunting, herding, guarding, killing rats. Most dogs love their work (though I feel bad for the little turnspit dogs.) Our lifestyles may have changed, but the dogs haven't. If we don't give them suitable work, they'll often seek out activities on their own (and it might not be something we want them doing.) That's why people who don't have a lot of time to devote to training and exercise are advised not to get a Belgian Malinois or a Border Collie.


Even a Pomeranian will raise the alarm if someone's approaching. Dogs are still working for us.

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FLizarraga
4 hours ago, katrinka said:

I'd still suggest studying a book along with that. Not multiple sources, courses, videos and blogs - a lot of them are contradictory, or just plain bad - but one good book, like Andy's.

Otherwise you run the risk of simply reading off the pictures, rather than penetrating to the core essences. It's helpful to have something you can check from time to time, to make sure you haven't gone off the rails. And the images are old, so it might take some additional information to understand what we're looking at.

 

After reading this thread and the Gilded Reverie one, I bought Andy's book and also the Anthony Louis one. And I'll be working with one or two of the older decks --good thing I have amassed so many!

4 hours ago, katrinka said:

 

A lot of people, for instance, assume that the Birchrods are some kind of whisk broom. Modern deck creators who should know better have even put brooms in their decks. But it's a birchrod bundle, used for punishment. It's got nothing to do with cleaning or witchcraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birching
 

When you see that crossed with a whip, the intent is unmistakable - it's strife!

It always made me wonder, as that image does not say cleaning to me. Purging, perhaps, as in a Russian sauna, but definitely NOT sweeping.

 

4 hours ago, katrinka said:

Or this Dondorf Dog:

00i.jpg.16aaa58cce766206ac6374a2d063b054.jpg

 

To our modern sensibilities, a tethered dog with a dry bone and no water is a clear case of abuse and neglect. But those are not Dog meanings. In the 19th century, Lurcher-type dogs (like this one) were highly valued since they kept food on the table. This dog hasn't been tethered and forgotten.


So a book is good to fall back on. 😉

 

Same thing. It does say "working dog" to me. At the time, most domestic animals were not babied. Dogs did, well, all those jobs you mention, and cats were mousers.

 

(Alas, my cat is useless as a mouser. I had a bit of a mice infestation this spring, and I actually had to rescue him out of one of the glue traps... 🤣)

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leroidetrèfle
Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, katrinka said:

I like that.
You're clearing up issues, not sweeping the floor.
Sometimes it's best to get things "on the table." You have to remember that what the card is referring to can often sting, even if it's just words. But it's still necessary.

I think most dogs had jobs in those days. Hunting, herding, guarding, killing rats. Most dogs love their work (though I feel bad for the little turnspit dogs.) Our lifestyles may have changed, but the dogs haven't. If we don't give them suitable work, they'll often seek out activities on their own (and it might not be something we want them doing.) That's why people who don't have a lot of time to devote to training and exercise are advised not to get a Belgian Malinois or a Border Collie.


Even a Pomeranian will raise the alarm if someone's approaching. Dogs are still working for us.

Yes. Over time, I have endeavoured to stress the judicial birching and fasces side of the Birch Rod card but these are often overlooked. For some reason the focus is activity/exercise and repetition. 
 

In Eastern Europe and Scandinavia the birch is used in saunas. So I can see that. But it goes along with the muscular aches, &c.

 

I also do not reject the association with the besom. However, this is the besom of folk magic/lore and not the ceremonial and esoterica of the dominant magickal communities influenced by Gardner, Crowley, et cetera. There is a difference.
 

If you were part of the bourgeoisie, you might have a lapdog in the XVIII and XVIIII centuries. However these still were not the “Idle” lap dogs of stereotype. Frederick the Great is a good example of these dogs. 
 

 

 

 

Edited by leroidetrèfle

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cirom
On 5/10/2020 at 2:52 AM, katrinka said:

Yes, a lot of people love using that one. But then you're getting into a thing where you're ignoring what's actually on the card and going by rote alone.
When Ciro was designing the deck, he put up the images at a facebook group. That Rider was a bone of contention - you had a faction of people who just ooohed and ahhhed everything, and the rest of us were like "Don't do this!" I remember Ciro got annoyed. Doing a Lenormand isn't like doing a Tarot deck, you're bound by tighter rules.
In the end, of course, he went with the lady on the carousel. The deck sold well, and continues to do so. But that Rider card is a major flaw. I guess it's just a matter of whether you're willing to overlook it.

No I’m not bound by any rules. Although I do respect tradition up to a point. But I refuse to be restricted by it, to merely redecorate it or re-hash it with downloads of yet more googled images of foxes and bears, tweaked with a photoshop filter flourish . The rider was ridiculed by some..... so what’s new? traditionalists have done that to every project. Sure it was a bit out there, but I don’t think you need to be an academic Lenormand expert to conclude that no mater her gender or dress, she is clearly a deliverer of a message. In fact I would suggest that visually my rendition would be clearer to a beginner than the less obvious depiction of the traditional tri pointed hat wearing man on a horse whose purpose could have been anything, who’se apparent role as a deliverer of a message only becomes known upon learning the explanation. It’s secondary role for serving as a gender substitute was also less necessary in this deck as I included additional gender cards to serve specifically for that purpose. As for being “readable, if one was willing to overlook the flaws”. well maybe it’s not so much a case of “overlooking” as seeing the images for what they are or could be, not merely comparing them to what some German publisher suggested They should be as he cleverly used the  name of Lenormand as a marketing ploy to convert an pre existing game into a tool for divination.  On Aeclectic this deck was certainly dismissed in the usual way, “cute fluffy artwork” that may have its appeal but not to be taken seriously compared to traditional decks”. I think I read similar comments on this very thread. What can I say, I do find such descriptions frustrating and at the obvious risk of being dismissed as the over sensitive artist , I feel they are questionable critiques. Certainly the style of the artwork is subjective, you can think what you want of that, but when it’s dismiss as not serious, I consider that an elitist position. If indeed this deck is merely dismissed as eye candy it’s a dismissal of an incredible amount of work, I hope that at least is recognized. Even the rider, so ridiculed, has a context of sorts. Amusing though the comparison might be, where I live the deliverer of messages is female, she delivers those messages from a vehicle and does so in a daily repetitive circular route through the neighborhood, so the carousel horse might  serve as a metaphor for that round about journey. And of course being Florida she is scantily dressed.... in shorts... a tongue in cheek push back to those on AT that proposed that my using this image was a means of making the deck more appealing to adolescent teenage males...... seriously ???? I was hoping to sell more decks by appealing to heterosexual males?, in an industry that is almost 80% female and many of the remains 20% male are gay?... I would have been a real idiot to have attempted such a contrarian marketing ploy.

In conclusion, I am not defending my choices, I’m attempting to explain them. I always provide ample references of the images from any given project via on line posts, videos etc. so potential buyer should have no great or disappointing surprises upon receiving the deck. But more importantly, the fact that this particular title has sold well, and I’m assuming is actually being used, despite its apparent flaws and lack of adherence to traditional correctness. So what does that say of all the readers who choose to use such a flawed deck, what does it say of all the Hundreds of thousands of readings that have been given using it. Are they also by default flawed? if so that would indeed mean that this deck has resulted in a major disservice to Lenormands heritage. In which case I offer my sincerest apologies for such an outcome. But I would like to think, to hope,  that for some, maybe  even the majority. The deviations I created, and the overall illustrative style used, may actually have served to provide a positive experience via a richer interaction with the cards and their meaning. I was informed by the publishers both English and German that growth in popularity of Lenormand has seen a significant growth in the last eight years, and they consider this title as having played a significant role in that growth..... if true, I’m rather proud of that and my female rider...

 

 

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cirom

So many experts, so little time, which has now run out for me. Now if only the pirates would have had similar doubts regarding this title.  . Ahhh that would have been a welcome irony. 

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gregory

Yeah. But honest to god - as long as the card is clearly a RIDER, what does the sex of the person portrayed matter ? It is read as "oh look the rider in x position" isn't it ? Simple as that, no ?

 

Actually some of the older decks are way "cuter" - almost icky cute, in a way. Artistic style is not the way one reads though, surely ?

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cirom

I would also like to add that personally I thought that "messenger" or "delivery of a message" was actually the essence of this card. Not the means of transport namely a Rider???. But even more important, I would also like to inform you all, that during the process of designing this deck I did'nt just go off on some creative whim.... I was in regular communication with Andy Boroveshengra, sharing draft work in progress reference images. He was very gracious in his advice feedback and ultimate approval. Particularly gracious, when you consider that he had initially freaked out, (along with many others) at my posting on line my initial proposal for the mouse card. if I recall the date was April the 1st

543701_10150810507043751_1639583504_n.jpg

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cirom

A couple of additional little details. Of no importance to the readings per say, just a  little Lenormand Trivia and hats off to "tradition".

 

The wording depicted on the letter card  on the Gilded Reverie is in fact a letter written by Mdm Lenormand  herself.

 

The wording on my new Sui Generis Lenormand letter card are those of a one written by Napoleon to Josephine who in turn was a client of Mdm Lenormand..

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gregory

That's an AWESOME mouse !

 

But beware: 

 

68760805_catandmouse002.jpg.5235393fc1267c29f400efa07c47324b.jpg

Edited by gregory

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geoxena

Well, the purists will most likely HATE the Lenormand deck I  accidentally bought the other day.  Accidentally?  Well, yes.  I was so thrilled to discover that the Barnes & Noble store was open for actual shopping and not just curbside pickup of online orders, that I ran inside and decided to treat myself.  It was 15 minutes before closing and, in a rush, I picked up an oracle deck that looked interesting, had pretty images, a decently sized guidebook, and sturdy sleeve for both deck and book.  So I bought it.

 

Got to my car and looked it over.  "Oh!  It's a Lenormand!"  I exclaimed.  I really had no interest in buying or learning the Lenormand, but "What the hell," I said. "Why not!"  Further reading of the book and a few reviews revealed that it's a non-traditional Lenormand with 7 extra cards: 1 extra Man and Woman so you can choose dark-skinned or light-skinned figures, plus #37 Aura, #38 Bat, #39 Umbrella, #40 Familiar (it depicts a cat), and #41 Seer.

 

The name of the deck is The Lunar Nomad Oracle by Shaheen Miro, and it's supposed to help one connect with their "Lunar Self," "unlock creativity," and "awaken intuition."  Theresa Reed wrote the forward and Mary K. Greer's endorsement is on the box (she calls it a "Lenormand+ deck for those who wish to wander off the secure path and into the wild").  Apparently, one can use the first 36 like a regular Lenormand or use the whole deck as a general oracle deck.

 

Here are somes images (I tried to include those cards that were mentioned upthread):

Cards 1 thru 8

 

 

 

IMG_20200627_130813550_HDR.thumb.jpg.856055bb77438c3244ce35d8d18d16f0.jpg

@katrinka, this Rider card doesn't even have a rider!

 

 

IMG_20200627_131047072_HDR.thumb.jpg.b503545afbd5687d5a3d29ee526f6bd1.jpg

 

 

IMG_20200627_131709210_HDR.thumb.jpg.31b54310937d9cb71d049d46237301f6.jpg

Naughty doggie!  Loafing and listening to the Victrola instead of hauling wood or something!

 

These are the extra cards:

IMG_20200627_132423441_HDR.png.417cf2c5b05d5c0b0331fda57d499060.png

 

In the book, Miro states that this is not a traditional Lenormand deck, so at least he isn't someone trying to pass it off as such.  So far, I like it.  The cards are huge, but I can work with that.  I'm not much for rigidly following tradition.  I think that if a deck, whether Lenormand or Tarot, is something with which the reader can feel attuned and able to interpret, then it's all good.

 

 

Edited by geoxena

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gregory
7 minutes ago, geoxena said:

I think that if a deck, whether Lenormand or Tarot, is something with which the reader can feel attuned and able to interpret, then it's all good.

Right on !

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katrinka
6 hours ago, cirom said:

No I’m not bound by any rules. Although I do respect tradition up to a point. But I refuse to be restricted by it,

Ah, a well-gnawed bone of contention! Alright, I'll play.

6 hours ago, cirom said:

to merely redecorate it or re-hash it with downloads of yet more googled images of foxes and bears, tweaked with a photoshop filter flourish . 

I can agree that there's entirely too many of those Google Lenormands.

6 hours ago, cirom said:

The rider was ridiculed by some..... so what’s new? traditionalists have done that to every project. Sure it was a bit out there, but I don’t think you need to be an academic Lenormand expert to conclude that no mater her gender or dress, she is clearly a deliverer of a message.

Yes, she works on that level. But what about the other Rider meanings? A young man, a male rival in a love triangle, a partner card for a gay or bisexual man...

6 hours ago, cirom said:

In fact I would suggest that visually my rendition would be clearer to a beginner than the less obvious depiction of the traditional tri pointed hat wearing man on a horse whose purpose could have been anything, who’se apparent role as a deliverer of a message only becomes known upon learning the explanation. It’s secondary role for serving as a gender substitute was also less necessary in this deck as I included additional gender cards to serve specifically for that purpose.
As for being “readable, if one was willing to overlook the flaws”. well maybe it’s not so much a case of “overlooking” as seeing the images for what they are or could be, not merely comparing them to what some German publisher suggested.

But the original 36 is a refined system. It's genius, perfectly balanced, and worthy of preservation. I'm convinced that it predates "some German publisher" and existed prior to Lenormand as we know it, most likely as a playing card method. Extra cards are a fun option but they shouldn't be needed. You can get everything you need from the original 36.

When the Rider is female, it takes on some Snake meanings, so the Snake would need to be changed as well.

6 hours ago, cirom said:

They should be as he cleverly used the  name of Lenormand as a marketing ploy to convert an pre existing game into a tool for divination.  On Aeclectic this deck was certainly dismissed in the usual way, “cute fluffy artwork” that may have its appeal but not to be taken seriously compared to traditional decks”.

Never take anyone who uses the word "fluffy" seriously. :laugh:
The art is fine. You know that, I know that, we all know that. I like the luminosity of it. Light is something a lot of people can't get right. You always do.

6 hours ago, cirom said:

I think I read similar comments on this very thread. What can I say, I do find such descriptions frustrating and at the obvious risk of being dismissed as the over sensitive artist , I feel they are questionable critiques. Certainly the style of the artwork is subjective, you can think what you want of that, but when it’s dismiss as not serious, I consider that an elitist position. If indeed this deck is merely dismissed as eye candy it’s a dismissal of an incredible amount of work, I hope that at least is recognized.

It is.
I don't think the "Ciro does everything on the computer so it's not work" trope would fly around here. 😉

6 hours ago, cirom said:

Even the rider, so ridiculed, has a context of sorts. Amusing though the comparison might be, where I live the deliverer of messages is female, she delivers those messages from a vehicle and does so in a daily repetitive circular route through the neighborhood, so the carousel horse might  serve as a metaphor for that round about journey.

Ah, but not all messengers are postal employees...

6 hours ago, cirom said:

And of course being Florida she is scantily dressed.... in shorts... a tongue in cheek push back to those on AT that proposed that my using this image was a means of making the deck more appealing to adolescent teenage males...... seriously ???? I was hoping to sell more decks by appealing to heterosexual males?, in an industry that is almost 80% female and many of the remains 20% male are gay?... I would have been a real idiot to have attempted such a contrarian marketing ploy.

I remember some of that on facebook. People getting in a snit over cheesecake.
It's a non-issue, AFAIC. And hormonal young males probably watch porn on the phone these days. A little pinup/burlesque vibe isn't going to bring them on board. If it did, we'd be seeing a flood of Bettie Page and Vargas Lenormands.

6 hours ago, cirom said:

In conclusion, I am not defending my choices, I’m attempting to explain them. I always provide ample references of the images from any given project via on line posts, videos etc. so potential buyer should have no great or disappointing surprises upon receiving the deck. But more importantly, the fact that this particular title has sold well, and I’m assuming is actually being used, despite its apparent flaws and lack of adherence to traditional correctness. So what does that say of all the readers who choose to use such a flawed deck, what does it say of all the Hundreds of thousands of readings that have been given using it. Are they also by default flawed? if so that would indeed mean that this deck has resulted in a major disservice to Lenormands heritage. In which case I offer my sincerest apologies for such an outcome. But I would like to think, to hope,  that for some, maybe  even the majority. The deviations I created, and the overall illustrative style used, may actually have served to provide a positive experience via a richer interaction with the cards and their meaning. I was informed by the publishers both English and German that growth in popularity of Lenormand has seen a significant growth in the last eight years, and they consider this title as having played a significant role in that growth..... if true, I’m rather proud of that and my female rider...

Yes, it's popular. And it's a beautiful deck.
That Rider spells cognitive dissonance to me, though. I'll stick with your Tarots and Kippers.

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cirom

I’m quite aware of the capacity of the basic 36 cards, I took great pains to clarify I wasn’t suggesting it was lacking. I think I made it very clear that the additional cards were optional. 
 

However i did assume that by including an extra man and woman card it would be a rather a logical solution to the needs to factor in any combination or love triangles and gay participants  when required...

 

No, not all messengers are postal workers.... please???? it was an analogy a visual metaphor and little twist to the concept..... just as all messengers are not young men on horseback (is he in fact young?, it’s hard to tell based on the original artworks). It’s symbolism... often symbolism in of itself doesn’t work, it requires someone to indicate what it means and do so repeatedly until the association becomes established and over enough time achieves the “gravitas” of being accepted as tradition and by association, accepted as correct. I say this as someone who’se entire career was based on creating and using symbolism for numerous clients from multinational corporation logos to work on Star Wars merchandise. And then tarot/Lenormand decks.

 

I should have applied your advice over the years and not taken all the comments such as fluffy as seriously as I did. I honestly didn’t realize they were joking. Were they? I really thought they were describing  how they perceived work. 

 

Anyway in summary you can’t get over the Female Rider.. that’s unfortunate but of no great significance as an individual response. What is if more concern of course is that if as you indicate the error has a knock on effect on other cards , then as I asked previously, what does that flaw mean to the decks overall efficacy? Not good right?. .... and the significance of that for the hundreds of thousand of readings that must have been compromised when using it ....many of which would have been done by professional readers charging a fee.... that’s a lot of “fish”.. oh boy. I can only hope that many readers did manage to “read” past the flaws. For what it’s worth though I did revert to the flock and comfort zone of the traditional male Rider in my second Lenormand deck. Even I wasn’t going to go through that hassle a second time.

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katrinka
1 hour ago, cirom said:

I’m quite aware of the capacity of the basic 36 cards, I took great pains to clarify I wasn’t suggesting it was lacking. I think I made it very clear that the additional cards were optional. 

Yes. You did.

1 hour ago, cirom said:

However i did assume that by including an extra man and woman card it would be a rather a logical solution to the needs to factor in any combination or love triangles and gay participants  when required...

Yes, that would address the need for a male partner card, provided the reader knows ahead of time that the man they're reading for is gay, or that the woman is straight, so they know to include the extra card.

1 hour ago, cirom said:

No, not all messengers are postal workers.... please???? it was an analogy a visual metaphor and little twist to the concept..... just as all messengers are not young men on horseback (is he in fact young?, it’s hard to tell based on the original artworks).

The horse is usually trotting, galloping, jumping or rearing, so there's an implication that he's youthful and athletic. He can be an older person sometimes, but always an active one who doesn't look his age.

1 hour ago, cirom said:

I should have applied your advice over the years and not taken all the comments such as fluffy as seriously as I did. I honestly didn’t realize they were joking. Were they? I really thought they were describing  how they perceived work. 

The word "fluffy", IME, is a meaningless epithet some people use for whatever they don't like, with no logic or regard for the definition. Silver Ravenwolf is "fluffy" because she "tells kids to lie to their parents." Etc.

So while those people may not have been joking, I wouldn't consider it an informed opinion. 😉

1 hour ago, cirom said:

Anyway in summary you can’t get over the Female Rider.. that’s unfortunate but of no great significance as an individual response. What is if more concern of course is that if as you indicate the error has a knock on effect on other cards , then as I asked previously, what does that flaw mean to the decks overall efficacy? Not good right?. ...and the significance of that for the hundreds of thousand of readings that must have been compromised when using it ....many of which would have been done by professional readers charging a fee.... that’s a lot of “fish”.. oh boy. I can only hope that many readers did manage to “read” past the flaws.

Yes, some people do great with it. Malkiel reads it quite well. IIRC, I've seen him interpret the Rider as male. So nothing's really changed, the balance is still there.
As for those who read it as an additional female rival, things could get a little Peyton Place.

1 hour ago, cirom said:

For what it’s worth though I did revert to the flock and comfort zone of the traditional male Rider in my second Lenormand deck. Even I wasn’t going to go through that hassle a second time.

LOL. I'll be getting that one at some point.

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cirom
1 hour ago, katrinka said:

LOL. I'll be getting that one at some point.

Well make sure you watch the promo video a couple of times before your waste your money. Because while the Rider may be more acceptable, I’ve once again strayed off the supposed “true “ path on several other cards.... it’s what I do. 

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katrinka
19 minutes ago, cirom said:

Well make sure you watch the promo video a couple of times before your waste your money. Because while the Rider may be more acceptable, I’ve once again strayed off the supposed “true “ path on several other cards.... it’s what I do. 

I did. Then I found one of those walk-through videos:
 


What straying? The Aztec calendar? It's a solar calendar. And you can see the sun's rays.
It looks fine to me. I don't see anything so far off the beaten path as to be problematic. Just the expected Marchetti flourishes. And you've worked the German suits into the design. That Border Collie is an excellent choice for a Dog card, BTW. The whole thing looks very well thought-out.

Take my money. 😁

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cirom

That video review was very nice and enthusiastic. But it was misleading at the end where it states that there is no companion information. There is no book, that is true. However on card 44  which is called ‘’closer look’’ there is a bar code graphic. When this is scanned using any device, smartphone, tablet... it links to a private page on my web site which contains a comprehensive explanation of the extra cards. This feature is referenced on the page on my web site from where the deck is purchased, but presumably was overlooked. I may have to highlight the wording.

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leroidetrèfle
On 6/27/2020 at 5:52 PM, cirom said:

I would also like to add that personally I thought that "messenger" or "delivery of a message" was actually the essence of this card. Not the means of transport namely a Rider???. But even more important, I would also like to inform you all, that during the process of designing this deck I did'nt just go off on some creative whim.... I was in regular communication with Andy Boroveshengra, sharing draft work in progress reference images. He was very gracious in his advice feedback and ultimate approval. Particularly gracious, when you consider that he had initially freaked out, (along with many others) at my posting on line my initial proposal for the mouse card. if I recall the date was April the 1st

 

Hello @cirom. I still have that picture!
 

Like schools, tradition is perhaps not the best word when describing the conventions and folklore of the Lenormand cards. We’re dealing with folklore rather than rote. @katrinka has stressed that before on other threads.

 

Contrary to popular belief there were very few titles on the Petit Lenormand before the 2000s. There has also never been a universally accepted standard deck. There are several older decks that would not meet the more zealous (neo)traditionalists — the “Dondorf” Lady never faced left, and that was the most disseminated pattern. 

 

Due to the scarcity of literature and limited deck choice, certain consistencies did develop. But it is in variations of grey.
 

A lot of these are logical inferences from the pictures (anchor and beaches/harbours, trees and woodlands, letters and sms, &c). I mentioned to you, @cirom, a few weeks back that we often read the Letter as private because it was often shown sealed but with the address not showing. 

 

One of the big conventions with the 9❤️ is that the Cavalier can describe someone as a dapper dresser or uniformed. This seems to have come from the picture (as he is a dandy) and is just common sense. The card is also associated with exercise — he's on a horse, and that is an isometric exercise. But Marco’s followers often use the Birch Rod. 
 

The Cavalier is a masculine card insofar as it shows a man. It's one I use a fair bit (I have a sizeable LGBTQ clientele). I also associate the card with personal transport/vehicles because of the horse. But, if I remember correctly, Rana doesn’t because the horse is not inanimate.
 

Similarly, I associate the Hound card with one’s employees as I associate dogs with work and also it was often shown as a guard dog. 
 

These are not so much secondary meanings as context-specific meanings.

 

If I'm using my Gilded Reverie, I don't read the Cavalier as a man. That's because it shows a woman. I use the King of Spades (Lilies) - he is man (king) and from the “other” suit. 
 

That’s not a criticism. I would not use the Lord card in my Carta Mundi for the partner of a lesbian client for that same reason. I’d use either the Serpent or Stork (queens of clubs & hearts, respectively). I also would not read the Lilies as a blonde if I’m using one of the old decks that has red lilies.  

I hope that you are all well. 
 

Andy B.
 

Edited by leroidetrèfle

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