A good beginner's Lenormand deck and book

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, leroidetrèfle said:

One of the big conventions with the 9❤️ is that the Cavalier can describe someone as a dapper dresser or uniformed. This seems to have come from the picture (as he is a dandy) and is just common sense.

Yes, there's a lot of old decks that feature top hats and the like. Definitely a man about town.

1 hour ago, leroidetrèfle said:

If I'm using my Gilded Reverie, I don't read the Cavalier as a man. That's because it shows a woman. I use the King of Spades (Lilies) - he is man (king) and from the “other” suit. 

I'm curious about how you handle the female rival issue.
We had a conversation years ago about meanings. The way I learned is that the Bear is the high finance card (Bears are powerful and they store fat for hibernation, they have "extra"), but if I recall correctly, you count that as a Tower meaning. Both ways are regional variations and acceptable. But if someone were to try to incorporate both sets of meanings, it would muddy the reading. (It's a common beginner mistake to try to use everything they find in books and on the net.) There would be two high finance cards. So how do you avoid having two female rival cards? Are there any other tweaks needed to make it work?

[Guest]

The Bear, for me, is more connected to personal financial management — as you note, bears metabolises fat, which to me is akin to insurances and pension plans (your stores), rather than high finance and salaries. The fat implies possession. 
 

Do you mean female rival with the Gilded Reverie? I keep to the Serpent. Or do you mean in general? The Serpent primarily fulfils that role. If, however, she is the partner card (as in same-sex) I use one the queens - but I determine that in advance. 

 

I know some Germans prefer the Child/Knave of Spades, but I'm not too keen on that as she shares the same suit as the Lady. 
 

 I see all the kings and queens as potential significators.  One of the reasons I keep to the Carta Mundi is the designs are gender-balanced (Cavalier male and Child female), and all the courts are fully shown. 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Guest

[katrinka]

2 minutes ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Do you mean female rival with the Gilded Reverie? I keep to the Serpent. Or do you mean in general? The Serpent primarily fulfils that role. If, however, she is the partner card (as in same-sex) I use one the queens - but I determine that in advance.

In the Gilded Reverie.
The (male) Rider can be a paramour. So with a female Rider, do you still retain the "third person" meaning? You already have the Snake for that.
And what about the other meanings: feet, ligaments, and knees, livestock, etc.? Does having a flying wooden horse alter that?
And are there other meanings that come into play to fill the void of the standard ones that are no longer workable?

 

11 minutes ago, leroidetrèfle said:

I know some Germans prefer the Child/Knave of Spades, but I'm not too keen on that as she shares the same suit as the Lady. 

I wouldn't do it either.
I'm seeing a lot of people online freaking out over old 50's and 60's songs about teenage girls. But the target market at that time was mostly teenagers.
Still, I'd anticipate problems using the Child that way for face to face readings. 😬

 

 

 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, katrinka said:

In the Gilded Reverie.
The (male) Rider can be a paramour. So with a female Rider, do you still retain the "third person" meaning? You already have the Snake for that.
And what about the other meanings: feet, ligaments, and knees, livestock, etc.? Does having a flying wooden horse alter that?
And are there other meanings that come into play to fill the void of the standard ones that are no longer workable?

 

I wouldn't do it either.
I'm seeing a lot of people online freaking out over old 50's and 60's songs about teenage girls. But the target market at that time was mostly teenagers.
Still, I'd anticipate problems using the Child that way for face to face readings. 😬

 

 

 

No, if I were to use the Gilded Reverie it loses the third-party/chevalier servant function. I cannot see how to reconcile the card and the folklore. It’s the same when I see people using the Lord for a female same-sex partner. I just cannot do it. Essentially, it means I‘m down a significator... but. If I use the Gilded Reverie I tend to stick to readings on finance, career, and so on. 
 

 The anatomical meanings (that I use, anyway) I would not struggle so much with. I can see her legs, &c. 
 

Yes, I have thought about that with the Child, too.

[cirom]

Im amazed at the amount of dissection being applied to this deck.... while you are clearly both experts, it seems you are also struggling. Would it help if I told “He” was in drag?😇

[Guest]

1 minute ago, cirom said:

Im amazed at the amount of dissection being applied to this deck.... while you are clearly both experts, it seems you are also struggling. Would it help if I told “He” was in drag?😇

Lol. We like to dissect. You’ve provided many happy hours of reflection and your Owl and Bear remains my favourite.

 

Now, I forgot to ask you when I e-mailed, when are you going to a playing card deck? Your court cards would be gorgeous.

[katrinka]

35 minutes ago, leroidetrèfle said:

No, if I were to use the Gilded Reverie it loses the third-party/chevalier servant function. I cannot see how to reconcile the card and the folklore. It’s the same when I see people using the Lord for a female same-sex partner. I just cannot do it. Essentially, it means I‘m down a significator... but. If I use the Gilded Reverie I tend to stick to readings on finance, career, and so on.

Sticking with finance and career would solve the problem.
Still, you'd have to keep a second deck out for the inevitable sex stuff.

35 minutes ago, leroidetrèfle said:

 The anatomical meanings (that I use, anyway) I would not struggle so much with. I can see her legs, &c. 

That works.

1 minute ago, cirom said:

Im amazed at the amount of dissection being applied to this deck.... while you are clearly both experts, it seems you are also struggling. Would it help if I told “He” was in drag?😇

LOL. I'm pretty sure that's how Malkiel views it.

And yes - a playing card deck!

 

 

[cirom]

I’m honored by your dissection, if the deck was complete nonsense it wouldn’t be worth your attention.

To your suggestion, I have toyed in the past with simply producing a decorative deck of playing cards, but to be honest, now with the proliferation of piracy, my heart is no longer in it.

I have given this much thought. If ever i was to conjure up sufficient enthusiasm it would be for a completely off the wall endevour that would also safeguard against piracy. Namely to produce a deck of which there would only be one copy. that I would personally print. Then I would offer to produce a variation on a commission only basis, with each card modified and to some degree containing some feature that would be personal to whoever it was being produced for. Thus maintaining each deck as a “one off”. This would represent a cost that would mean an extremely extremely small number being produced. But it might satisfy my creative itch. This is’nt intended as a promotion Or serious intent,  just rambling out loud.

 

[katrinka]

2 hours ago, cirom said:

Then I would offer to produce a variation on a commission only basis, with each card modified and to some degree containing some feature that would be personal to whoever it was being produced for.

And you would know exactly who was pirating/leaking scans to pirates. Mua hahaha.
It does sound cost prohibitive, though, since you'd be redoing so much.

[cirom]

2 minutes ago, katrinka said:

And you would know exactly who was pirating/leaking scans to pirates. Mua hahaha.
It does sound cost prohibitive, though, since you'd be redoing so much.

Exactly, but it’s even more Mua hahaha.... what would be the value to the pirates   Who would want reproductions of a deck that would be littered with little personal touches that specifically  referenced the person who commissioned it. For example names, dates. symbols related to someone called Katrina, her life, and things of significance to her.? 
But yes a lot of work.... I must admit it has its appeal though if only for the personal satisfaction in its creation. There would be two interesting dynamics dancing tango, A really high priced deck would obviously only generate very few sales, the higher the price the fewer the sales, but the fewer the sales the more exclusive each would be. Which would increase its caché and perceived worth. As an aside, after going out of print there have been occasions where copies of my special editions have sold for over ten times their original prices. Not sold by me I would add, I had nothing to do with such transactions, simply private individual collectors. But it is an indication of the passion that some collectors have. But even with that it wouldn’t make financial sense for the amount of work involved, but one hell of a ego trip.........

[Kath]

Would you recommend the Thelema Lenormad by Renata Lechner for a beginner?

 

I have seen the book recommendations in this thread, but is there a good website that you would recommend, for meanings, combinations, etc? I know there are hundreds of websites, but some are obviously better than others. 

[katrinka]

On 7/22/2020 at 5:55 AM, Kath said:

Would you recommend the Thelema Lenormad by Renata Lechner for a beginner?

I haven't seen all the cards in that one, so I can't say one way or another.

On 7/22/2020 at 5:55 AM, Kath said:

I have seen the book recommendations in this thread, but is there a good website that you would recommend, for meanings, combinations, etc? I know there are hundreds of websites, but some are obviously better than others. 

I found the Treppner course helpful back in the day. You can download it free here:
https://www.spirisfeed.com/lana-download/lenormand-course/

[Kath]

Thank you Katrinka, I'll check it out.

[le_charior]

On 7/26/2020 at 12:05 AM, katrinka said:

I haven't seen all the cards in that one, so I can't say one way or another.

I found the Treppner course helpful back in the day. You can download it free here:
https://www.spirisfeed.com/lana-download/lenormand-course/

Thank you for providing this link, @katrinka! I felt very drawn to the Lenormand system recently, so I ordered a deck, and the book by Andy Boroveshengra (following the recommendation by you and others here on the forum), and will have a look at this course. I decided to buy the Green Glyphs Lenormand for my first deck, it seemed clear and traditional enough to be easily readable (from what I saw online, and as much as I can judge), and the addition of not only a second man and a second woman to be able to read for same-sex attraction and relationships, but that it also has two person cards that can stand in for non binary folks really convinced me. I am curious to dive into this new system!

Edited March 7, 2021 by le_charior
Typo

[FLizarraga]

On 6/27/2020 at 9:11 AM, cirom said:

And of course being Florida she is scantily dressed.... in shorts... a tongue in cheek push back to those on AT that proposed that my using this image was a means of making the deck more appealing to adolescent teenage males...... seriously ???? I was hoping to sell more decks by appealing to heterosexual males?, in an industry that is almost 80% female and many of the remains 20% male are gay?... I would have been a real idiot to have attempted such a contrarian marketing ploy.

 

On 6/27/2020 at 4:44 PM, katrinka said:

I remember some of that on facebook. People getting in a snit over cheesecake.

 

Revisiting this thread for the first time in a long while, that nonsense bugs me to no end. ANYONE who has EVER seen ANY of Ciro's decks knows that he has always been pretty "equal opportunity" in regards to cheesecake AND beefcake. As a queer man, I have always appreciated that he has given us cards as the Gilded Tarot's Devil or the scrumptious extra Male card in his Gilded Reverie.

 

I'd argue that Ciro is a richly sensual artist beyond showing the human body (which he does not do all that often, anyway, and I don't think I have ever seen a nude). The Queen of Wands in his Legacy of the Divine Tarot is extremely sensuous (and we're looking at a face), as are his gardens, his landscapes, his Venetian-style masks, and his beautiful buildings. All those golds and velvety reds, you just want to touch them...

[Albadawn]

On 2/28/2021 at 9:48 AM, le_charior said:

Thank you for providing this link, @katrinka! I felt very drawn to the Lenormand system recently, so I ordered a deck, and the book by Andy Boroveshengra (following the recommendation by you and others here on the forum), and will have a look at this course. I decided to buy the Green Glyphs Lenormand for my first deck, it seemed clear and traditional enough to be easily readable (from what I saw online, and as much as I can judge), and the addition of not only a second man and a second woman to be able to read for same-sex attraction and relationships, but that it also has two person cards that can stand in for non binary folks really convinced me. I am curious to dive into this new system!

 
How do you like this deck @le_charior? It’s caught my eye for the reasons you mentioned and also the alternative card offered for The Cross. I’d be glad to hear your thoughts!

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Albadawn said:

 
How do you like this deck @le_charior? It’s caught my eye for the reasons you mentioned and also the alternative card offered for The Cross. I’d be glad to hear your thoughts!

I cannot comment but I have three students raving about it.
 

It’s not fo me. I also have one issue with the Albatross card in that it changes the entire card’s meaning.
 

Crucifixion was a method of painful execution. It was slow. It causes spinal pressure and suffocation. Those are facets worked into the card folklore (burden, back pain, the time crossroad and abscisor). Changing a card’s image will change the meaning. 

[Albadawn]

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

I cannot comment but I have three students raving about it.
 

It’s not fo me. I also have one issue with the Albatross card in that it changes the entire card’s meaning.
 

Crucifixion was a method of painful execution. It was slow. It causes spinal pressure and suffocation. Those are facets worked into the card folklore (burden, back pain, the time crossroad and abscisor). Changing a card’s image will change the meaning. 

Without getting too much into this, I have some personal issues around religious trauma which is why a deck with a substitute for the Cross appealed to me. 
 

The Albatross card (from the small image of it I’ve seen) appears to show a skull in a desert, which suggests to me a slow and painful demise of its own kind. But definitely different, as you say. 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Albadawn said:

Without getting too much into this, I have some personal issues around religious trauma which is why a deck with a substitute for the Cross appealed to me. 
 

The Albatross card (from the small image of it I’ve seen) appears to show a skull in a desert, which suggests to me a slow and painful demise of its own kind. But definitely different, as you say. 

I understand. Caitlín Matthews replaced the Cross with a Crossing card (shows a dark bridge). Off the top of my head, I cannot think of another deck that has adapted it.

 

It is further complicated. Traditionally, the Cross signifies all religions. You will often find the denomination clarified by its attendee, e.g. + Lilies for Hinduism, + Stars for Judaism, + Moon for Islam, + Tree neopaganism, and so on. 
 

I hope you find the best deck for you. As said, everyone who has the Green Glyphs loves it. 

 

[Albadawn]

7 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

I understand. Caitlín Matthews replaced the Cross with a Crossing card (shows a dark bridge). Off the top of my head, I cannot think of another deck that has adapted it.

 

It is further complicated. Traditionally, the Cross signifies all religions. You will often find the denomination clarified by its attendee, e.g. + Lilies for Hinduism, + Stars for Judaism, + Moon for Islam, + Tree neopaganism, and so on. 
 

I hope you find the best deck for you. As said, everyone who has the Green Glyphs loves it. 

 

Thank you for letting me know about the Matthews deck, I will have a look at that one as well. I already have the Piatnik and the design on that particular Cross card doesn’t trouble me as much as some depictions I’ve seen. 
 

That’s very useful to know about the religion aspect of the card, thank you for sharing!

[katrinka]

5 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

It’s not fo me. I also have one issue with the Albatross card in that it changes the entire card’s meaning.

 

Exactly. It shows a very shallow comprehension of the card ("burden", an "albatross around his neck").
There is still a Cross card, IIRC, so the deck is still usable. Just not that card.

 

3 hours ago, Albadawn said:

Without getting too much into this, I have some personal issues around religious trauma which is why a deck with a substitute for the Cross appealed to me. 

I won't presume to tell you how to handle trauma, but I will say that the Cross is very negative in Lenormand. You're having a correct reaction. 😉

[Albadawn]

7 hours ago, katrinka said:

 

Exactly. It shows a very shallow comprehension of the card ("burden", an "albatross around his neck").
There is still a Cross card, IIRC, so the deck is still usable. Just not that card.

 

I won't presume to tell you how to handle trauma, but I will say that the Cross is very negative in Lenormand. You're having a correct reaction. 😉

Ha! Good to know that if all else fails I can use it to my advantage 😉 

[Mesha]

On 6/27/2020 at 6:04 PM, cirom said:

For what it’s worth though I did revert to the flock and comfort zone of the traditional male Rider in my second Lenormand deck. Even I wasn’t going to go through that hassle a second time.

You have another? 
 

It was seeing your 1st deck in an unboxing that lead to my discovery of Lenormand. 
 

Edit- I see now I was late to the party on that one. Thanks Katrinka for the flip through of the deck. 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Mesha

[CrowCawing]

New to Lenormand and found this thread very helpful, especially the explanation of favoring the cross card over the albatross in the Green Glyphs deck.

A "Guest" users commented on this topic in regards to the Cross: "Traditionally, the Cross signifies all religions. You will often find the denomination clarified by its attendee, e.g. + Lilies for Hinduism, + Stars for Judaism, + Moon for Islam, + Tree neopaganism, and so on."

I am interested  in learning other Cross/attendee combinations that represent religions or spiritual paths.

[Sadewa]

Hi @CrowCawing

 

You can find discussions on lenormand religion combos here ,you may need to do a bit of scrolling.