The Bohemian Cards (Zigeuner Wahrsagekarten)

[Decan]

Hi guys,

I open this thread on the Gypsy Cards (Zigeuner Wahrsagekarten) because I decided to study them a bit (it was a temptation for a while!)

There is another deck named "Gypsy cards" by Lo Scarabeo but it is actually a version of the Sibilla Italiana, not this one.

 

This one is a 36 cards deck, I don't know its history but it developed in central Europe where it seems still widely used.

It is not a Lenormand!

 

Below a pic of the whole deck (in this version, because it doesn't seem the only version for this deck!).

Baba studio is working on a version of this deck, so people will be more interested in this deck/system in the future I think.

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by Decan
Edited to modify the title

[Decan]

Below some videos I found on Youtube regarding the basic meanings of the cards!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by Decan

[reall]

Just to say these are super popular in my country & what people think when they ask for *Tarot deck!; ) facepalm

 

No wonder, as imo it's super easy to interpret even for complete novice! You just ask question draw a card & look at keyword for interpretation if image is not suggestive enough!:) I would say it's most simplified version of all similar decks (lenormand, kipper,Sibbila, etc) & yes, there is several different publishers (all with same card keywords!;) most popular Piatnik Zigeuner Wharsagekarten you mentioned in green box with cupid, Hungary Gypsy with blue box & Lady have plastic cards & imo less fancy illustrations & there are 2 more I know from Serbia 1 use old children book illustrations & other photomanipulation! Will add pic later!:)

[Decan]

25 minutes ago, reall said:

Just to say these are super popular in my country & what people think when they ask for *Tarot deck!; ) facepalm

 

No wonder, as imo it's super easy to interpret even for complete novice! You just ask question draw a card & look at keyword for interpretation if image is not suggestive enough!:) I would say it's most simplified version of all similar decks (lenormand, kipper,Sibbila, etc) & yes, there is several different publishers (all with same card keywords!;) most popular Piatnik Zigeuner Wharsagekarten you mentioned in green box with cupid, Hungary Gypsy with blue box & Lady have plastic cards & imo less fancy illustrations & there are 2 more I know from Serbia 1 use old children book illustrations & other photomanipulation! Will add pic later!:)

Interesting! Thanks for that @reall

[reall]

Agree! & You are welcome! 🙂 Also feel free to ask me anything, I did my own reserch on these!:)

[reall]

ok, managed to find some pic & short summary!:) these so called Gypsy Fortune Telling Cards starting with ZIGEUNER WAHRSAGE-KARTEN / GYPSY Fortune Telling no 1901 (green box with cupid & card names in 6languages!:) by Piatnik/ Königsfurt-Urania Verlag Gmb Austria Vienna around 1910?:)

are all 36 card decks with card illustrations & card name that represent it's meaning printed in 6 languages (note Piatnik also have *shorter 32 card deck version with older looking illustrations aka Bidermeier & modern 1920 Art Deco 52 card deck expansion that is my fav & harder to find!:)

 

card names/meanings/keywords in these decks are always the same & represent people: starting with querent & it's love interest (Cards: Lover & Sweetheart) include other characters as well (Card Baby, Widow, Widower, including professions Ecclesiastic, Judge, Thief, Enemy, Officer,) as well as querent home & events & feelings: Cards House, Letter, Message, Visit, Journey, Unexpected joy, Gift, Money, Some money, Merriment, Marriage, Fortune, Misfortune, Anger, Loss, Death, Malady, Thought, Desire, Sadness, Hope, Constancy, Fidelity, Love, Falseness, Jealousy

 

there is usually lwb that gives basic info & spreads such as grand tableu & 3x3 grid & plenty of blogs for more detail interpretation but I bet Baba studio will offer great guidebook so it's worth waiting!:)

 

Piatnik

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by reall

[reall]

Cigany Kartya /GYPSY CARD Hungarian Gypsy Fortune Telling Cards by Kvíz (blue box with lady!:) look like less quality version of Piatnik  deck above

 

[reall]

Vetőkártya - Fortune teller cards by Bonart (36 card deck in white box with cupid) are also from Hungary, but usually feat card name in only 1 or up to 4 languages, also illustrations looks older than decks mentioned above & resemble Bidermeierd deck most so probably older?:)

here is Serbian Cirilic text edt

[reall]

i also find this deck on fb named simply "Karte za Gledanje" by Dad Trade from Serbia, but it looks like someone decided to print old child book illustrations with card names on our local language (Latinic text this time!:) then glue it over 1$ playing cards deck (with ugly,mermaid back to prove it!:) then laminated? in short terrible quality, illustrations are cute but often don't fit meaning,,, p.s sorry for bad pic I lack photography talent!x,x facepalm lol

[reall]

& modern photo deck with effect made for tv show *Zlatna zora/Golden Dawn named simply*Sudbinske karte/Destiny cards & printed with magazine Astral, again in our local language latinic text, it source also mentions similar deck was created in Hungary for esoteric tv magazine Ezo tv?:)

also on this link you can see all cards Pic with classic img & basic meaning again only our local language!:)

imo they did good job with photos as it's evident what card it is even without text but not always traditional best example Message card here: https://www.magicus.info/ezoterija/tarot/stare-ciganice-u-novom-ruhu-porukahttps://www.magicus.info/ezoterija/tarot/stare-ciganice-u-novom-ruhu-poruka

you can get a reading here: https://www.magicus.info/magazin/sudbinske-karte

Edited May 17, 2020 by reall

[reall]

wops here: https://www.wopc.co.uk/tarot/austrian-cartomancy-decks

have short history of these cards & mentions German Hegenauer Aufschlagekarten 32, 36 & 52 card decks as some of earliest versions

 

& here you can see illustrations & short description for all 52 cards from Hegenauer “Aufschlagkarten” Fortune Telling Cards:

http://www.aufschlagkarten.de/hegenauer-einzelbedeutung.php

imo these looks oldest as there is no color only in later versions!:)

& what i find interesting is some of these cards looks like sibbila!:) example butterfly & cat card illustrations are imo unique to sibbila?:)

 

so imo while Lenormand 36 card deck is based on Franch playing cards & Kipper is German, and Sibila may be based on full Italian/Spanish playing card deck, these *Gypsy fortune telling cards with no numbers or playing card insertion may be East European version of Sibbila?:)

 

also what i find interesting is we have plenty of gypsies in my part of world (politically correct term is "Rom" meaning human!:) & we had regular fairs & circuses etc & local residents who used to fix umbrellas & bikes & sell wooden coutlary & other handcrafted items etc & all sorts of fortune telling was popular (from coffee ground being top!:) I don't remember Ever seeing gypsy woman telling fortune from cards?!:) what i do remember is they used to tell fortune from palms aka palm reading & it backs my theory cards were to fancy for them to use or spend money on & most likely (at least 1st mass printed edt!:) were printed in more advanced countries that had printing press at time & meant for *Ladies of Salons who could afford to spend money on card decks & had liberty to use playing cards?(France, Spain, Italy & maybe even Germany & uk are top suspect of origin of fortune telling cards at least in Europe!:) Tarot & other cards in India & Asia may have different origin!:)

 

Update: I believe correct term for this group of cards is Aufschlagkarten or Wahrsagekarten translation would be something like *cards for looking into questions aka Oracle & term is different in different languages & that's why G* slur got popular?:)

these specifically were popular in Austro Hungary territories/ Eastern Europe while rest of Europe had sibbila cards that are likely oldest & probably originating from Lotteria or older 40 +40 decks I discovered recently similar to so called Mercanti in fierra?, so likely origin of these *Not Tarot & Not Sibbila decks is game proverbs or popular books?(see biblomancy)

 

also here is what seems to be oldest 52card deck: Josef Neumayer und Wilhelm Hendl Aufschlagkarten um 1860

 

 

also modiano cartomancy 37/38 aka Cuorti di Amori combine Bidermeier deck mentioned above with interesting Art Deco style images I would like to know more?:)

Edited October 10, 2021 by reall
update

[Decan]

Wow, great!!!

4 hours ago, reall said:

there is usually lwb that gives basic info & spreads such as grand tableu & 3x3 grid & plenty of blogs for more detail interpretation but I bet Baba studio will offer great guidebook so it's worth waiting!:)

Yeah, I also think that the companion book with their deck will be an interesting resource! Worth waiting as you said!

4 hours ago, reall said:

note Piatnik also have *shorter 32 card deck version with older looking illustrations aka Bidermeier & modern 1920 Art Deco 52 card deck expansion that is my fav & harder to find!:)

I found out at the end of the last year that Piatnik has good quality decks! For the Bidermeier & modern 1920 Art Deco which look really nice I didn't realize that one has only 32 cards and the other 52.

Regarding directions it's not exactly the same than with the first one by Piatnik (which comes in a green box with Cupid on it), but I guess people work with that aspect from the cards in front of them.

4 hours ago, reall said:

Cigany Kartya /GYPSY CARD Hungarian Gypsy Fortune Telling Cards by Kvíz (blue box with lady!:) look like less quality version of Piatnik  deck above

But very nice drawings, close to the Piatnik in a green box, and directions seem the same, except for Thief and Fidelity. Interesting deck!

4 hours ago, reall said:

Vetőkártya - Fortune teller cards by Bonart (36 card deck in white box with cupid) are also from Hungary, but usually feat card name in only 1 or up to 4 languages, also illustrations looks older than decks mentioned above & resemble Bidermeierd deck most so probably older?:)

here is Serbian Cirilic text edt

Yes it looks like the Bidermeierd; maybe they wanted to create a Bidermeierd with 36 cards, and as well a more colored version. I don't understand the titles of course but I think I identified the cards though.

4 hours ago, reall said:

i also find this deck on fb named simply "Karte za Gledanje" by Dad Trade from Serbia, but it looks like someone decided to print old child book illustrations with card names on our local language (Latinic text this time!:)

Here I had some difficulties to identify the cards, except for the House card (they took it from the Piatnik)!

4 hours ago, reall said:

& modern photo deck with effect made for tv show *Zlatna zora/Golden Dawn named simply*Sudbinske karte/Destiny cards & printed with magazine Astral, again in our local language latinic text, it source also mentions similar deck was created in Hungary for esoteric tv magazine Ezo tv?:)

also on this link you can see all cards Pic with classic img & basic meaning again only our local language!:)

Yeah, a more modern version here. Good idea to display the classic card beside the new version on their website. For the cards you posted, there is no problem to identify them!

4 hours ago, reall said:

& what i find interesting is some of these cards looks like sibbila!:) example butterfly & cat card illustrations are imo unique to sibbila?:)

Yes, indeed, I already read that the Italian Sibilla was devived from these decks in the mid to late 19th Century.

4 hours ago, reall said:

also what i find interesting is we have plenty of gypsies in my part of world (politically correct term is "Rom" meaning human!:)

It's the reason why Baba will named their deck "Bohemian" instead of "Gypsy". Since English isn't my native language I don't see the word Gypsy as offensive, but maybe it could be, while it is also currently used with decks though.

Otherwise it's really possible as you said that decks of cards were mainly used for the Ladies of Salons!

 

Thanks again @reall, this thread is already a great resource!!

Edited May 17, 2020 by Decan

[katrinka]

On 5/17/2020 at 9:38 AM, Decan said:

I found out at the end of the last year that Piatnik has good quality decks!

Better late than never!

Quote

For the Bidermeier & modern 1920 Art Deco which look really nice I didn't realize that one has only 32 cards and the other 52.

I have those. I actually passed my Zigueners on (between the 50's pulp comics art style and the racial stuff with the name, I wasn't using them much) but kept the Biedermeier and the Art Deco.

One minor correction: the Art Deco cards were first published in 1936. In 1920 the clothing was quite different!

 

There's a more recent addition to that deck category, the Little Czech. Not Piatnik, but good stock and it reads well. https://baba-store.com/products/little-czech-oracle-deck

 

Quote

Regarding directions it's not exactly the same than with the first one by Piatnik (which comes in a green box with Cupid on it), but I guess people work with that aspect from the cards in front of them.

Direction? When did this become a major concern? I smell a Toni-ism.
Direction can be taken into consideration if you like, but I've never known it to be a major factor in reading these decks.

Edited June 16, 2020 by katrinka

[Decan]

30 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Better late than never!

Ah ah, yes!! 🙂

30 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I have those. I actually passed my Zigueners on (between the 50's pulp comics art style and the racial stuff with the name, i wasn't using them much) but kept the Biedermeier and the Art Deco.

 

There's a more recent addition to that deck category, the Little Czech. Not Piatnik, but good stock and it reads well. https://baba-store.com/products/little-czech-oracle-deck

I have it too, and it is cute, but not much explanations for the cards. Of course we can deal with it since the cards speak for themselves.

30 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Direction? When did this become a major concern? I smell a Toni-ism.
Direction can be taken into consideration if you like, but I've never known it to be a major factor in reading these decks.

Yes, good nose, lol! I have no idea if everyone use direction with this deck, but it's the way she explains how to deal with it.

From what said Reall, I got the sense that people not necessarily use it with direction though.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Decan

[katrinka]

I've never really seen any Eastern European readers using it. Maybe once in awhile someone will note some perceived interaction between cards, the way people sometimes do with Tarot, but really, it's not A Thing.

[Decan]

5 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I've never really seen any Eastern European readers using it. Maybe once in awhile someone will note some perceived interaction between cards, the way people sometimes do with Tarot, but really, it's not A Thing.

Thanks for that, interesting to note!

[reall]

Happy you like & find it interesting!:) yes, it's more about proximity & direction may be used secondary?!;)

& you noticed well that House is familiar!:) lol

 

I also prefer Bohemian name but if Piatnik still use it should not be offensive term?:)

 

@katrinka Art Deco my fav!:D oh! tnx for link i forgot to include it as illustrations are different from what I used to see in this deck but titles looks same so it's a same deck just Artzy version?x,x facepalm lol

[katrinka]

3 hours ago, reall said:

I also prefer Bohemian name but if Piatnik still use it should not be offensive term?:)

Piatnik exists to sell decks. People are familiar with the deck by that name, so they just leave it as is.
But Piatnik is not the arbiter of what the Roma want to be called. The Roma are - and most of them don't want to be called "gypsies", in any language.
Karen and Alex are working on a deck similar to the ones mentioned ITT - and they're going to be called Fortune Telling Cards, or maybe Bohemian Fortune Telling Cards. I think Piatnik, Lo Scarabeo, etc. need to take note.

ETA: Ah, here we go!

 

Quote

@katrinka Art Deco my fav!:D oh! tnx for link i forgot to include it as illustrations are different from what I used to see in this deck but titles looks same so it's a same deck just Artzy version?x,x facepalm lol

Yes, there's a lot of decks that fit this designation! Some very good ones! (And IMHO, the best ones don't call themselves "gypsy cards".)

Edited May 18, 2020 by katrinka

[Decan]

Ah yeah, their deck will be great!

 

A lot of cards in this deck are similar to the Kipper, but it's not the same system of course (and with the Kipper I'm lost, so I can't really compare). But to take into account directionality could make sense, it really depends on how people in Eastern Europe deal with that.

From what I heard direction is something more flexible with this one, so I understood that it probably isn't the Thing, indeed, so a secondary consideration (depending), but not something essential like with the Kipper.

 

Well, everything is on the table! In 5 years I will be able to do something correct (or 10 years???) LOL

Edited May 18, 2020 by Decan

[reall]

@katrinka agree Bohemian & Fortune Telling sounds better!  Was not sure about term in question as English is not my original language but Roma is what they are prefered to be called so maybe  their representative in EU should take notice?;) also please feel free to add links for other decks in this topic? I was not aware there is more!:)

 

Like Baba Studio deck reminds me of my fav Ciro Kipper!^^ lol but just to add as far as i know these *fortune telling cards are most open to free interpretation & no strict rules!^^ that's why popularity here!^^ lol

[Decan]

13 hours ago, reall said:

but just to add as far as i know these *fortune telling cards are most open to free interpretation & no strict rules!

This is in line with what said Katrinka above, I note that, thanks!

The way Toni explains this deck seems kipper-ized somehow, maybe people in germany use it that way, actually I don't know but the "Gypsy" Cards aren't really german though, much more from central and eastern Europe, and germany too. In France this deck isn't known.

Well, this topic needs further explorations on my side, for sure!! I feel something with these cards!

[katrinka]

2 minutes ago, Decan said:

This is in line with what said Katrinka above, I note that, thanks!

The way Toni explains this deck seems kipper-ized somehow, maybe people in germany use it that way, actually I don't know but the "Gypsy" Cards aren't really german though, much more from central and eastern Europe, and germany too. In France this deck isn't known.

Well, this topic needs further explorations on my side, for sure!! I feel something with these cards!

People in Germany don't even use Kipper the way that Toni says.
There's a little directional stuff, sure, but I've never seen German readers and authors putting the heavy emphasis on it that Toni does.
Malkiel says he's never even heard of "stop cards". Nor have his colleagues - he asked. I've never seen Susanne Zitzl or Kersten Kolb doing any of that. Nor have I seen it on Waldfee.
It's not a Kipper thing, it's a Toni thing. And it's certainly nothing to do with eastern European fortune telling cards.

[Decan]

2 hours ago, katrinka said:

People in Germany don't even use Kipper the way that Toni says.
There's a little directional stuff, sure, but I've never seen German readers and authors putting the heavy emphasis on it that Toni does.
Malkiel says he's never even heard of "stop cards". Nor have his colleagues - he asked. I've never seen Susanne Zitzl or Kersten Kolb doing any of that. Nor have I seen it on Waldfee.
It's not a Kipper thing, it's a Toni thing. And it's certainly nothing to do with eastern European fortune telling cards.

Hmm hmm, I see, and of course we shouldn't find stop cards in the "Gypsy" Cards system either. To learn cards is a great adventure and at times a winding road that push us to move forward, I can choose to look at this that way 🙂

[reall]

I think I hear/seen that *Stop card in action (was surprised by it as well!:) but as far as I know it's playing card thing?;)

[reall]

Eta just remembered I ching have it too!:)