MissJones Posted May 30, 2020 Posted May 30, 2020 As a hobby I find old illustrations (around usually 100 - 150 years old, sometimes older) and edit them, clean them up, colour them and turn them into tarot cards - keeps me busy, and satisfies my addiction to colourIng 🙂 I’ve always thought I’d just print myself a deck once I’ve made all the cards, but I was chatting to friend recently, and the topic of deck creation came up. I shared a few of the cards I’m working on at the moment, and she was really encouraging about them. A different friend has mentioned how she’d like a copy of the deck once it’s finished a while ago, and I said sure, ok - and after 2 people have been so encouraging about it, I’m wondering whether it would be worth offering to others? It’s not near completion but I reckon I’ll have a finished deck in a few month’s time - would be really cool to share it if it brings joy to a bunch of different folks. So I guess I’m just wanting to see if it would be worth setting up a kickstarter or something for when it’s done, or whether it just my 2 mates who like it, only because they are nutty as I am... or whether they’re just being polite and it’s actually awful lollllll. If you saw this deck, would you be like: a) Hells yeah this is amazing, it speaks to my little vintage soul!! b) Meh...I‘d accept it if someone gave it to me, but I’d probably never use it.... c) GOD NO BURN IT WITH FIRE!!! FETCH THE BLEACH, MY EYES, MY EYEESSSSSSS!! All options will be accepted lol - and the typeface would probably change, I’ve not really sorted out formatting or anything yet, I’ve not really needed to before aha, sorry ‘bout that!
Grandma Posted May 30, 2020 Posted May 30, 2020 Hells yeah this is amazing, it speaks to my little vintage soul!! I'll buy this deck the moment it's available. If you don't know how many decks you want to print, you might consider this option. Quite a few people here have used Printers Studios where decks are printed to order. That's how the We Are One deck was done. I bet people who use it will tell you more about how it works. Seriously, @MissJones this looks like a wonderful deck.
MissJones Posted May 30, 2020 Author Posted May 30, 2020 13 minutes ago, Grandma said: Hells yeah this is amazing, it speaks to my little vintage soul!! I'll buy this deck the moment it's available. If you don't know how many decks you want to print, you might consider this option. Quite a few people here have used Printers Studios where decks are printed to order. That's how the We Are One deck was done. I bet people who use it will tell you more about how it works. Seriously, @MissJones this looks like a wonderful deck. Aw thanks @Grandma, as always, you’re so kind and supportive!! 💖 And thank you for the advice, that’s a great idea! I was thinking that if a few folks did want a deck, I’d have to figure out how many to print so I wouldn’t end up with 50 lol, but your suggestion is a MUCH better option ha 😅 So glad you like it!!! Once it’s close to being ready I’ll let you know for sure x
Papageno Posted May 30, 2020 Posted May 30, 2020 very lovely, and the World card reveals a hint of cultural diversity with the depiction of the globe set on top of the tortoise's back.
MissJones Posted May 30, 2020 Author Posted May 30, 2020 Thank you @Papageno! 4 hours ago, Papageno said: and the World card reveals a hint of cultural diversity with the depiction of the globe set on top of the tortoise's back. Life is too varied and stunning to experience it through just one perspective! Although, while I was keeping the world close to the original (I think a subconscious move to keep bc the image is so similar to the RWS?), now you mention the cultural aspect of the cards, it doesn’t sit right that some rando blonde lady is riding the world turtle, especially because it is a part of Hinduism and some Native American beliefs... I’m going to fix this rn! Thank you for highlighting this - I’m going to double check my cards today and make sure I haven’t followed the RWS unnecessarily closely somewhere else 🙂
gregory Posted May 30, 2020 Posted May 30, 2020 1 hour ago, MissJones said: .... now you mention the cultural aspect of the cards, it doesn’t sit right that some rando blonde lady is riding the world turtle, especially because it is a part of Hinduism and some Native American beliefs... I’m going to fix this rn! T Thank you MissJones - that was actually bugging the hell out of me ! "A hint of cultural diversity" does not sit well with me. It should never be a sort of afterthought.
Papageno Posted May 30, 2020 Posted May 30, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, MissJones said: Thank you @Papageno! it doesn’t sit right that some rando blonde lady is riding the world turtle, especially because it is a part of Hinduism and some Native American beliefs... I’m going to fix this rn! Thank you for highlighting this - I’m going to double check my cards today and make sure I haven’t followed the RWS unnecessarily closely somewhere else 🙂 Actually the World card imagery is a classic depiction of Kuan Yin on the back of the tortoise, which was a representation of the world. However, my comment was not intended as a criticism, it was merely an observation, and a friendly one at that. IMHO, there's nothing wrong with an Intelligent depiction of spiritually inspired cross-cultural hybridization. Consider that there are many other Tarot artists who meld Eastern and Western philosophies and imagery in their decks in very appropriate ways with great success, and without offending anybody. Are all European Tarot artists now supposed to stop using I-Ching Hexagrams in their work? I wouldn't rush off to "fix" anything if I were you, but it is your art, not mine. Edited May 30, 2020 by Papageno
Tanawylfen Posted May 30, 2020 Posted May 30, 2020 I like it! Were you planning to do pip minors or pictorial?
katrinka Posted May 30, 2020 Posted May 30, 2020 1 hour ago, MissJones said: Thank you @Papageno! Life is too varied and stunning to experience it through just one perspective! Although, while I was keeping the world close to the original (I think a subconscious move to keep bc the image is so similar to the RWS?), now you mention the cultural aspect of the cards, it doesn’t sit right that some rando blonde lady is riding the world turtle, especially because it is a part of Hinduism and some Native American beliefs... I’m going to fix this rn! Thank you for highlighting this - I’m going to double check my cards today and make sure I haven’t followed the RWS unnecessarily closely somewhere else 🙂 Yes, it's obviously not Kuan Yin - it looks like an old European alchemical picture - but if people are getting "Kuan Yin" because she's on a turtle, it's surely best to do something else. Props.
MissJones Posted May 30, 2020 Author Posted May 30, 2020 (edited) There’s a bit more here than I was expecting! I’ll try put my thoughts into words as best I can, and thank you everyone for your input 🙂 2 hours ago, gregory said: Thank you MissJones - that was actually bugging the hell out of me ! "A hint of cultural diversity" does not sit well with me. It should never be a sort of afterthought. Yes, it made me immediately pause, and quickly re-evaluated what I’d done to see what was up. It’s really important that I admit when I’ve messed up, and fix it. This is going to sound stupid, but the world-turtle in the pic was a nod to the turtle in the Discworld series, (which obviously now thinking about it, TP got from existing religions. When I put it in though, it was just a kind of literary Easter egg in a RWS World card). As soon as I realised the wider significance of it, I had to change it - it definitely didn’t make sense anymore, and would be wrong if I kept it as is. I’m very glad I had the chance to change the card! 2 hours ago, Papageno said: However, my comment was not intended as a criticism, it was merely an observation, and a friendly one at that. IMHO, there's nothing wrong with an Intelligent depiction of spiritually inspired cross-cultural hybridization. @Papageno I took absolutely no offence, no worries (anyways, it would be silly of me to take offence, especially if I had messed up to begin with) - I hadn’t even realised I’d put something cultural in there until you mentioned it, which is why I changed it. That, in and of itself is no excuse, I should have done the research on world-turtles before putting one in! But thank you for pointing it out! Quote Consider that there are many other Tarot artists who meld Eastern and Western philosophies and imagery in their decks in very appropriate ways with great success, and without offending anybody. Are all European Tarot artists now supposed to stop using I-Ching Hexagrams in their work? I wouldn't rush off to "fix" anything if I were you, but it is your art, not mine. It’s a very complicated topic, and I think for me, I want to make sure if I’ve got a very specific reference in a card, I don’t westernise it or whitewash it where possible. I’ve been as careful as I can with the cards I’ve done, but this slipped through my general knowledge cracks, and I should have been better at doing the research before thinking about sharing them. Parts of my own culture (and beyond that, identity) are often appropriated, and it sucks when you’re erased from your own narrative - so I completely agree that diverse representation in a deck is really important (everyone deserves to feel seen and heard), and it should be done with care and ample consideration. That’s pretty much why I changed it - I want to keep the world turtle, so it should be the best version of the world turtle it can be! 2 hours ago, katrinka said: Yes, it's obviously not Kuan Yin - it looks like an old European alchemical picture - but if people are getting "Kuan Yin" because she's on a turtle, it's surely best to do something else. Props. @katrinka bingo! It’s an old European plate I bastardised a bit. The Latin translates to something close to “happiness arrives slowly // on the slowness with which good fortune arrives”, and I just coloured in the world bit myself. The saying has roots to the 1500s, which is around when this plate is from - sometimes the lady is on a ball though, and balding haha! This plate has all those good fortune symbols used in alchemy, crowns and sceptres and olives and wheat etc. I thought it would be a lovely message for the card, because the World turns inevitably, good fortune will come, but the pace at which it comes is slow and steady 🙂 But as you rightly say, once I added the world on the back of the turtle, it became something else, and required a change! 2 hours ago, Tanawylfen said: I like it! Were you planning to do pip minors or pictorial? @Tanawylfen thank you!! I’ve done a fair few pictorial minors, so I think in the end, the entire deck will be pictorial. I have some wonderfully absurd french prints from the early 1800s which work so well for the minors! I mean, who doesn’t want a card with a chonky King penguin on a throne?? 😂 Edited May 30, 2020 by MissJones
Tanawylfen Posted May 30, 2020 Posted May 30, 2020 54 minutes ago, MissJones said: I have some wonderfully absurd french prints from the early 1800s which work so well for the minors! I mean, who doesn’t want a card with a chonky King penguin on a throne?? Ha ha - they sound amazing, and a King penguin on a throne is an obvious choice if you ask me!😄 Your deck is sounding better and better!
gregory Posted May 30, 2020 Posted May 30, 2020 58 minutes ago, MissJones said: There’s a bit more here than I was expecting! I’ll try put my thoughts into words as best I can, and thank you everyone for your input 🙂 Yes, it made me immediately pause, and quickly re-evaluated what I’d done to see what was up. It’s really important that I admit when I’ve messed up, and fix it. This is going to sound stupid, but the world-turtle in the pic was a nod to the turtle in the Discworld series, (which obviously now thinking about it, TP got from existing religions. When I put it in though, it was just a kind of literary Easter egg in a RWS World card). As soon as I realised the wider significance of it, I had to change it - it definitely didn’t make sense anymore, and would be wrong if I kept it as is. I’m very glad I had the chance to change the card! That doesn't sound silly AT ALL - now I want a Discworld deck. Kindly get moving !
geoxena Posted May 30, 2020 Posted May 30, 2020 (edited) Most images I've seen of Kwan Yin have her standing on the back of a dragon. I have a beautiful framed one like that. When I see a turtle as the world, I think Native American. The blonde hair of the woman does goes with the golden frame, but I think changing her hair color and/or skin tone would help achieve a balance. While avoiding cultural appropriation is very important and laudable, it is indeed a tricky thing for an artist with something they want to express and I think sometimes trying to be absolutely correct can water down your intention and make something bland. It sounds like your reasoning for having a map of the world on the turtle's back was logical and fit in with the Euro origin of the print - it made sense to me as I read it. It could be an homage rather than appropriation! On a related note, I was sort of shot down when I pointed out that one of the cards a member made for our collaborative deck here had included an image of a Native American dream catcher in it, which I saw as cultural appropriation. But I was told that its use there wasn't direspectful and other members didn't seem to have a problem with it, so the artist kept it. Nonetheless, the use of it still makes me cringe when I see that card. My point is that we never know how someone else will react to any kind of creative effort and, in the act of making art, sometimes we make mistakes, while other times we are very conscious to avoid such mistakes, and still other times we include certain imagery as a way to acknowledge and honor other cultures rather than steal from them. You can't please everyone all the time and art is very personal. Make it for yourself, share it with the world, and just know that some will love it and some will not. The work you've shown here is beautiful! I believe it would definitely sell as a deck. Edited to add: are the prints you're finding hard copies from antique books, etc., that you scan? I'm curious how you come across so many lovely prints. Edited May 30, 2020 by geoxena
MissJones Posted May 30, 2020 Author Posted May 30, 2020 38 minutes ago, Tanawylfen said: Ha ha - they sound amazing, and a King penguin on a throne is an obvious choice if you ask me!😄 Your deck is sounding better and better! Haha I thought so lol - penguins are awesome 😂 thank you, I’m looking forward to seeing it when it’s all done! 36 minutes ago, gregory said: That doesn't sound silly AT ALL - now I want a Discworld deck. Kindly get moving ! OMG yes a full Discworld deck would be amazing - I would snap that up in a heartbeat! I’ll try keep in a few more refs in mine 😉 17 minutes ago, geoxena said: Most images I've seen of Kwan Yin have her standing on the back of a dragon. I have a beautiful framed one like that. When I see a turtle as the world, I think Native American. The blonde hair of the woman does goes with the golden frame, but I think changing her hair color and/or skin tone would help achieve a balance. I totally agree!! Did a little bit of an adjustment to get things balanced 👍 Quote While avoiding cultural appropriation is very important and laudable, it is indeed a tricky thing for an artist with something they want to express and I think sometimes trying to be absolutely correct can water down your intention and make something bland. It sounds like your reasoning for having a map of the world on the turtle's back was logical and fit in with the Euro origin of the print - it made sense to me as I read it. It could be an homage rather than appropriation! On a related note, I was sort of shot down when I pointed out that one of the cards a member made for our collaborative deck here had included an image of a Native American dream catcher in it, which I saw as cultural appropriation. But I was told that its use there wasn't direspectful and other members didn't seem to have a problem with it, so the artist kept it. Nonetheless, the use of it still makes me cringe when I see that card. My point is that we never know how someone else will react to any kind of creative effort and, in the act of making art, sometimes we make mistakes, while other times we are very conscious to avoid such mistakes, and still other times we include certain imagery as a way to acknowledge and honor other cultures rather than steal from them. You can't please everyone all the time and art is very personal. Make it for yourself, share it with the world, and just know that some will love it and some will not. The work you've shown here is beautiful! I believe it would definitely sell as a deck. Very, very true, and a lot of wisdom here! It’s a fine line for sure, and I guess the best we can do is be considerate of what we use, and how, and be open to change if needs be. I know I’m never going to get things right 100% every time, but as you say, everyone approaches art differently and as long as I’m open to criticism and growth, things should be ok in the end 😊 also thanks for the support, I’m so glad you like the cards so far!! Quote Edited to add: are the prints you're finding hard copies from antique books, etc., that you scan? I'm curious how you come across so many lovely prints. Most of them are from online records from libraries/collections, that are open source etc. So British Library is a goody, they just released A TON of stuff, the Getty Museum, even Google Books, and a few different individual websites that publish scans of old books. I’ve done a couple of scans of physical books to (I inherited a few really old encyclopaedias, and *usually* have access to an epic library), but I’d say probably 95% of the images I find are online - especially recently, as there seems to be nothing else to do lol. Also, if I find an artist I really love, say from the 1800s or something, I’ll just google image search their work - a lot from this period is already online!
katrinka Posted May 30, 2020 Posted May 30, 2020 3 hours ago, MissJones said: It’s a fine line for sure, and I guess the best we can do is be considerate of what we use, and how, and be open to change if needs be. I know I’m never going to get things right 100% every time, but as you say, everyone approaches art differently and as long as I’m open to criticism and growth, things should be ok in the end 😊 also thanks for the support, I’m so glad you like the cards so far!! Exactly this. So many people get super defensive when somebody points out that they've made a mistake like that. But it has to be acknowledged before we can change it! 5 hours ago, MissJones said: . I have some wonderfully absurd french prints from the early 1800s which work so well for the minors! I mean, who doesn’t want a card with a chonky King penguin on a throne?? 😂 Oh, dear. It's not this one, is it? http://www.fantasticmenagerie.com/Cups.htm If it is, you're probably in the clear legally. There's at least a couple of decks out there that use Grandville's art. lt's so old, it has to be Public Domain. I'm just not sure you want to be the third.
MissJones Posted May 30, 2020 Author Posted May 30, 2020 36 minutes ago, katrinka said: Exactly this. So many people get super defensive when somebody points out that they've made a mistake like that. But it has to be acknowledged before we can change it! Totally agree!! Quote Oh, dear. It's not this one, is it? http://www.fantasticmenagerie.com/Cups.htm If it is, you're probably in the clear legally. There's at least a couple of decks out there that use Grandville's art. lt's so old, it has to be Public Domain. I'm just not sure you want to be the third. Darn-tootin’ fish-nuggets! That would be the lil’ rascal (edited & coloured quite differently) but yup, that’s our royal misfit. I had no idea he made an appearance in other decks, but to be fair, Grandville’s work is so fun, well preserved, and extensive, I’m not surprised he’s in multiple decks! Thanks so much for the heads up!! I might have to rethink the cards of his I’ve done.... maybe my edits make them different enough, but I’m not sure I want to widen the same trenches. Food for thought wot wot 🤔
reall Posted June 14, 2020 Posted June 14, 2020 I like vintage illustrations!:) would go with fancy vintage text font to match it something like menagerie!;)
MissJones Posted June 14, 2020 Author Posted June 14, 2020 35 minutes ago, reall said: I like vintage illustrations!:) There’s always something surprising to find, I really enjoy them too! Quote would go with fancy vintage text font to match it something like menagerie!;) I was thinking I might create a font for them once I have finished them all - something that would suit the overall deck style ☺️
reall Posted June 14, 2020 Posted June 14, 2020 Oh! That would be Awesome! I like Vintage fonts!:) but it can be tricky to find good one that will look good & readable printed!:) so share if you have font tips!:)
katrinka Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 On 5/30/2020 at 9:24 AM, MissJones said: I totally agree!! Did a little bit of an adjustment to get things balanced 👍 You could put her on a big snail and convey the same message. While it's quite common to see Kuan Yin on a dragon, she's also portrayed on a lotus leaf, a lion...all manner of creatures. She has a lot of forms...Thousand Hands Kuan Yin, Kuan Yin with fish basket, etc. And the turtle is fairly common in her iconography. I think if you swap the turtle out for a snail, you'll be fine.
MissJones Posted June 16, 2020 Author Posted June 16, 2020 On 6/14/2020 at 4:50 PM, reall said: Oh! That would be Awesome! I like Vintage fonts!:) but it can be tricky to find good one that will look good & readable printed!:) so share if you have font tips!:) Will do!! ☺️ On 6/15/2020 at 4:06 AM, katrinka said: You could put her on a big snail and convey the same message. While it's quite common to see Kuan Yin on a dragon, she's also portrayed on a lotus leaf, a lion...all manner of creatures. She has a lot of forms...Thousand Hands Kuan Yin, Kuan Yin with fish basket, etc. And the turtle is fairly common in her iconography. I think if you swap the turtle out for a snail, you'll be fine. Definitely worth looking at, thank you! ⭐️
offramp Posted June 25, 2020 Posted June 25, 2020 For the OP, if she is interested in my opinion, then the High Priestess is the weakest, but the other 2 are both a) Hells yeah this is amazing, it speaks to my little vintage soul!! The word DEATH would have to be removed or reduced in size to be the same as the others: it's too dramatic! I'd like to see a non-thematic deck, i.e. 78 unrelated pictures taken from worldwide sources. (The pictures would be appropriate for the Tarot card.) I think your system would be perfect for that.
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