Pips/playing card insert theory

[HOLMES]

After reading a passage in caitlin matthews book i realized that i misunderstood the comparisons table and was actually saying the same meanings as andy b in his book. 

So I am rewriting this to reflect that only using 

Andy borroveshengra 

Lenormand thirty six cards

An introduction to the petit lenormand

And 

Cailtin matthews

The complete lenormand oracle handbook

Reading the languages and symbols of the card.

 

It is a beginners trap due to lack of information to assume that one could read the lenormand as an english card reader with established english meanings. Especially when you hear of this style or that style. 

Which could lead to the tarot trap of swords is spades is strife but would be mistaken due to the lenormand is based on german tradition rather then french tradition

 

So accordingly 

The hearts is spring, deals with home and love 

The diamonds are summer deals with enterprise and strategy 

The spades are fall and deals with work

The clubs are the most challenging symbols dealing with winter.

 

The court cards on each respective card deals with hair colour and possible type of person.

 

As a tarot reader i thought it goes 

Ace 2 3 onward

But actually goes 

678910 jack queen wand ACE

Due to the ranking score give to the ace 

 

So might come back to add more

 

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by HOLMES
To correct many mistakes

[katrinka]

9 hours ago, HOLMES said:

And only

anduly boroveshengra lenormand thirty six cards an introduction to the petit lenormand shows the club as spades energy. 

The reason for this is he was trained by romani so that is the way he learned. 

 

Andy never stated anything of the kind. 

Rather, he has said repeatedly that Lenormand is rooted in Alemannic cartomancy. Clubs are the trouble suit because they're Acorns and associated with hardship. Spades are Leaves and associated with growth. 

It's not a Romani method or "the way he learned", it's the way the deck IS. One has only to look at the suits on Das Speil der Hoffnung to verify this.

[gregory]

Andy's book is one of the best out there. If I had to pick one - that would be IT. 

 

And actually - there are not even "tarot standards" (look at swords and wands - often reversed for elemental affinities between fire and air) - but if there were, they do not relate to LeNormand.  Be very careful trying to invent a new way with "your own theory" - LeNormand is its own way. I would hate to see anyone sucked in to misinformation here.

Edited March 17, 2021 by gregory

[katrinka]

10 minutes ago, gregory said:

Andy's book is one of the best out there. If I had to pick one - that would be IT. 

 

And actually - there are not even "tarot standards" (look at swords and wands - often reversed for elemental affinities between fore and air - but if there were, they do not relate to LeNormand.  Be very careful trying to invent a new way with "your own theory" - LeNormand is its own way. I would hate to see anyone sucked in to misinformation here.

Agreed. When you start forcefitting Lenormand suits to hermetic Tarot (and that's apparently what's being alluded to here, since the OP named "Wands" rather than Staves), you get a dog's breakfast. The Lenormand method developed independent of Waite, Crowley, etc. Are the10 of Swords and the Ship equivalent? Of course not.

[katrinka]

11 hours ago, HOLMES said:

I have a personal theory why the pips start at 6 instead if say going 1 2 3 4 5 then 10 courts is the number five is usually the most severe number

So 6 onwards is recovery from the number.  I mean 2 3 4 are good numbers in general 

 

There is a mention of a 32 deck called piquet that starts at 7 so just added another suit number. 

But that is that, just adding it as discussing 6 onwards. 

There are piquet variants that utilize 36 cards. It's easy to fact check these things, and much more productive than guessing.

"The most popular card game in 16th-century Europe was Piquet, played with a 36-card deck that dropped ranks from 5 to 2. Around 1700, it dropped the 6s as well to create the 32-card deck, which is now the most popular format in France. 32 and 36-card decks are the most widespread in countries that were once part of the Holy Roman (the Low Countries, Germany, and Switzerland), Austro-Hungarian, and Russian empires."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stripped_deck#History

[Guest]

Hi @HOLMES

 

Can I just clarify that my interest in and knowledge of the suits’ signification are independent of my Aunt. She had no interest. Her method was very lean. 
 

I first became interested in the suits upon acquiring Mary Marco and Jeanine Goffinet’s book. I started to note multiples and suit dominance. Over time, I became aware that trèfle was referred to kreuz in German.  My French mentor likened it to “carrying your cross.” 
 

At the time of writing my book, we knew of the existence of the Das Spiel der Hoffnung (A Wicked Pack of Cards).  That carried carried the German suits and the Alsace-French equivalent.  When writing the book, I researched the (German or Alemannic) pattern in greater detail. I focused on Central and Eastern European sources (Caitlín focused on Dutch sources).

 

The former were and are common to Austria, Switzerland, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Croatia, Hungary and Romania.   These are used for Schafkopf, Jass and Septica. Like many systems, these use a reduced deck of 32 or 36 cards. Due to time spent in the latter regions, I was familiar with the pattern but not schooled in it.
 

Acorns or crosses are associated with winter, hardship and toil. The acorn was associated with serfdom, too. Hence pictures such as the Cross, the Mice, the Birch Rod and the Fox.  

 

Leaves, never seen as or referred to as piques or spades, are symbols of the autumn harvest, growth and society vis-à-vis the Flowers, the Park and the Lilies cards.

 

Cards in Hungary, Romania, Croatia often show seasons on the deuces (there are no aces): Hearts are spring, Bells are Summer, Leaves are autumn and Acorns are winter. 

The Bavarian pattern predates tarot between ten and fifteen years. 

On an aside the 10♠️ was associated with voyages, a tradition preserved and transferred to English cartomancy in the writings of Minetta and even Cecily Kent. This of course differs to the Hermetic root interpretation of the 10 of Sworrds.

 

andy b

Edited March 17, 2021 by Guest
Typo

[gregory]

There's also Bezique, which developed from Piquet and has 64 cards - two packs with 32 each, both omitting cards 2-6. But neither one has anything to do with cartomancy.

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, gregory said:

There's also Bezique, which developed from Piquet and has 64 cards - two packs with 32 each, both omitting cards 2-6. But neither one has anything to do with cartomancy.

Yes. Minetta refers to the 32-card deck as Bezique. Chad Goddall and the other card manufacturers used that name for the double pack cards favoured by cartomantes in the UK. 
 

There is a strong links between the preferred cartomancy card deck (32, 36, 48 and so on) and games played in regions.
 

We have no records from Hechtel and no one knows where he plucked the GoH from.  But in the game’s instructions, he notes the cards can also be used to play card-games and tell fortunes.

Either he or his partners had to be familiar with the common North European parlour traditions of the late eighteenth century. He also follows Etteilla, to some extent, with the Lord and Lady mirroring the Mars and Venus cards. 

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Guest

[HOLMES]

6 hours ago, katrinka said:

 

Andy never stated anything of the kind. 

Rather, he has said repeatedly that Lenormand is rooted in Alemannic cartomancy. Clubs are the trouble suit because they're Acorns and associated with hardship. Spades are Leaves and associated with growth. 

It's not a Romani method or "the way he learned", it's the way the deck IS. One has only to look at the suits on Das Speil der Hoffnung to verify this.

 

 Your right of course it was the forward by alison cross i will go edit that. 

[HOLMES]

I think for me regarding the pips, the caitlin matthews book deals with them better, it has pip combos, groupings,  and more chapter devoted to them. 

 

Over here i am just using rana george, caitlin matthews, you know andy b book, alexandre musruck book. 

 

For me a stave is the same as baton, wand, it always been so for me 

In these books the majority of them put the pips as the same suits. 

I used to debate which is it.. wand fire or air one book said that, one book said this even a deck creator now and then 

Finally i just decided  ok wand is fire, sword is air

 

For the ten of spades being on the ship it would add colouring wouldn't replace the ship meaning.  

I am not sure 10 of spades would be seen as straight up ten of swords in playing cards as it must have some own playing cards meaning over the years.  I am looking at it through my books though. 

 

So as for misinformation simply they come based on what i am reading through the contrast and compare method, for beginners learning like me.

 

Thanks katkinka for the wiki information 

 

@timtoldrum oh who is your aunt ?

[Guest]

Hi @HOLMES

 

I am the author of Lenormand: Thirty Six Cards (I’m andy).  My Aunt’s name was Elisa.  
 

The first draft of my book did contain more information on the pips. My editors cut 40% of the book. In particular it had a chart that showed suit combinations, such as Clubs (majority) with Hearts indicate problems in relationships and day-to-day problems building up.  That was cut as it was available in my free courses. 
 

In the Petit Lenormand the 10 of Spades’ meaning is travel. The 10 of Spades is the Boat. They have one meaning.  The reason I singled out that card is it is often the one people cite when arguing that the suits contradict the cards’ meanings. But in several Cartomancy systems, the 10 of Spades signifies voyages and water.  

 

However, like all stripped deck systems, you can note the suit predominance.  Lots of spades in a Lenormand reading indicate issues around socialising, growth and so on. It is also the suit of the maternal line in the family.  

I appreciate you saying a baton is a wand. But you must understand that the Lenormand trèfle/club is not a wand or fire. Of course, if you wish to see it that way you can. But if you look through the cards (ring, cross, mice, mountain, fox, bear, birch rod, serpent and clouds) you should see they are quite different in essence to the GD wands.

 

[HOLMES]

Let me take my foot out of my mouth

 

I do love your book, ohh that must of been frustrating to have it edited like that. Especially since many of us don't know about your free course, i know i didnt. You figure the editor would have your free course mentioned right at the beginning or at the back of the book. Edited to add 

I do see it is mentioned you wrote the first course so i think i assumed it was for a school in a differnt country. 

 

I am humbled to meet you

I am going to pm you with  a couple of questions. 

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by HOLMES

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, HOLMES said:

 

 Your right of course it was the forward by alison cross i will go edit that. 

 

6 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

Can I just clarify that my interest in and knowledge of the suits’ signification are independent of my Aunt. She had no interest. Her method was very lean. 
 

I first became interested in the suits upon acquiring Mary Marco and Jeanine Goffinet’s book.

 

Alison's foreword only states that he was taught by his aunt, not that his analysis of the suits comes from her, or that they are Romani. He's obviously done research beyond what he learned as a child.

 

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by katrinka

[gregory]

34 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

I am going to pm you with  a couple of questions. 

Please ask your questions in the thread - we can all learn so much from Andy.

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

I do love your book, ohh that must of been frustrating to have it edited like that. Especially since many of us don't know about your free course, i know i didnt. You figure the editor would have your free course mentioned right at the beginning or at the back of the book. Edited to add 

I do see it is mentioned you wrote the first course so i think i assumed it was for a school in a differnt country. 

 

I am humbled to meet you

I am going to pm you with  a couple of questions. 

Caitlín Matthews had similar experiences.   When editors go over manuscripts, they identify" unnecessary "information and where they feel a" disconnect." For example, there were three additional spreads, but two (the couples' spread and cross of five) were thought to be too positional.  In the appendix, I had a different GT read exactly how my Aunt did it.  The editor felt that it created a disconnect between the section she called titled the traditional GT (I called it all future/big picture) and how Aunt Elisa read.  

 

It was frustrating. It influenced my decision not to publish a second book. 

 

26 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Alison's foreword only states that he was taught by his aunt

 

Yes. And it was not formal lessons. She put a card down and moved it around. She saw cards as quite specific situations. 

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, gregory said:

Please ask your questions in the thread - we can all learn so much from Andy.

Agreed. People can benefit content like his. 

 

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

Yes. And it was not formal lessons. She put a card down and moved it around. She saw cards as quite specific situations. 

Yes. And if I remember correctly, the reason you were able to publish on Lenormand is because it isn't a Romani method. I don't recall where you said she learned, but it isn't one of those closely guarded family secrets.

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by katrinka

[Guest]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

Agreed. People can benefit content like his. 

I’m happy for such a thread. But I am but one reader. 
 

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

Yes. And if I remember correctly, the reason you were able to publish on Lenormand is because it isn't a Romani method or family secret

 

There was a reticence with regards to palmistry, but since my mother’s illness she no longer objects. It was often more as some bits came with family anecdotes, and to a lesser extent, certain beliefs concerning why certain things occur. 
 

Mum also once had a run in with another palmist who told her she was doing it wrong. That certainly made her jaded in terms of sharing.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Guest

[katrinka]

I seriously doubt she was "doing it wrong." 
And I see what you mean, it would probably be very difficult to explain and not have people get all kinds of wrongheaded ideas. There's a lot of that going around...

[HOLMES]

Well before moving on

@gregory i wasn't ignoring you, i was waiting for response  by andy by pm 

 

 

@katrinkai sincerly thought by the comment " with a long family line of romani readers that it meant andy was carrying on that tradition being taught by his aunty who must be when i first read it roman.  I mean no disrespect to andy in that regards. I also took it that hes been reading for 20 years. 

Is it alison cross who comes from a long family line of romani readers?

Confused by the wording i am 

 

@timtoldrum  am sorry that your mom went through that.

i think we all must of went through that at some point when sharing ideas. We have traditionalists vs modernist, vs inuitatative. 

I personally recall when a teenager just about to turn 20 i shared a clairovision  and the teacher at the workshop i was at told me can you be more specific and i said no, and she toore me down saying i had to get specific,more attuned. It took a lot of courage for me as i am a shy person in life and and so  i closed my gift down for some years just quietly studying a bokk here and there. 

 

So after thinking about that, just going to include  your style of using the suits as well,  let others decide which way works best for them 

It goes back to the other arguements  

Is air sword or wand

Is 11 strength or justice 

Do you use reversals or not

A person will decide for themselves

 

 

 

 

[katrinka]

57 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

i sincerly thought by the comment " with a long family line of romani readers that it meant andy was carrying on that tradition being taught by his aunty who must be when i first read it roman.  I mean no disrespect to andy in that regards. I also took it that hes been reading for 20 years. 

Is it alison cross who comes from a long family line of romani readers?

Confused by the wording i am 

He does carry on the tradition, but Lenormand is not part of that tradition even though his aunt taught him. She learned it someplace else. 
It's like a Thai person showing you how to make tortillas. That doesn't make tortillas Thai. It's just a skill they picked up. 

And Alison is not Romani to my knowledge.

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by katrinka

[le_charior]

12 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

The first draft of my book did contain more information on the pips. My editors cut 40% of the book. In particular it had a chart that showed suit combinations, such as Clubs (majority) with Hearts indicate problems in relationships and day-to-day problems building up.  That was cut as it was available in my free courses. 

 

11 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

Caitlín Matthews had similar experiences.   When editors go over manuscripts, they identify" unnecessary "information and where they feel a" disconnect." For example, there were three additional spreads, but two (the couples' spread and cross of five) were thought to be too positional.  In the appendix, I had a different GT read exactly how my Aunt did it.  The editor felt that it created a disconnect between the section she called titled the traditional GT (I called it all future/big picture) and how Aunt Elisa read.  

 

It was frustrating. It influenced my decision not to publish a second book. 

 

What a pity, and sorry to read about this frustrating experience! I am happy your book exists, but would still be nice to have it the way you originally intended it. 

 

Speaking of courses - will you be offering a Lenormand group course this year again? I think I saw it announced on your website (edit: yes, here) - do you have a newsletter or mailing list for folks (like me) who would be interested in this - or should we just follow on your social media (sorry this is a bit off topic!)

 

11 hours ago, gregory said:

Please ask your questions in the thread - we can all learn so much from Andy.

I am following this with a lot of interest, so I second this! I am learning a lot from everybody's input here actually! 

 

I grew up playing Schafkopf (in Munich), with playing cards from 6-10, King, Ober and Unter instead of Queen and Jack, and Bells, Leaves, Hearts and Acorns, so I am very familiar with this deck. We would usually take out the 6s, you only need them for variants of the regular game, and then play with 4 players, 8 cards each. I can never remember what suit of this deck corresponds to what suit of the deck with spades, etc, and even less to the tarot minors, so I'll just learn a new system for the Lenormand, happily unaware and uninfluenced by any ideas of correspondence 😉

[gregory]

9 hours ago, katrinka said:

I seriously doubt she was "doing it wrong." 
And I see what you mean, it would probably be very difficult to explain and not have people get all kinds of wrongheaded ideas. There's a lot of that going around...

 

It's like trying to explain tarot to someone who really wants to get it but no "explanation" works !

 

5 hours ago, katrinka said:

He does carry on the tradition, but Lenormand is not part of that tradition even though his aunt taught him. She learned it someplace else. 
It's like a Thai person showing you how to make tortillas. That doesn't make tortillas Thai. It's just a skill they picked up. 

And Alison is not Romani to my knowledge.

 

I suspect the Romani thing is picked up from some random on-line remark by someone who had no idea what they were talking about. Alison's blog doesn't mention it at all. I have little respect left for her anyway since she became closely involved with the evil reprinting of the Greenwood, which is of questionable legality but is certainly deeply immoral.

 

Lenormand =/= Romani, either. Marie was an upper-class woman who had nothing to do with Romani. Didn't the Romani use gypsy cards more anyway ?

 

5 hours ago, HOLMES said:

So after thinking about that, just going to include  your style of using the suits as well,  let others decide which way works best for them 

It goes back to the other arguements  

Is air sword or wand

Is 11 strength or justice 

Do you use reversals or not

A person will decide for themselves

 

Lenormand isn't a "decide for yourself" thing, I believe. And swords/wands - air/fire and the 8/11 thing have nothing to do with Lenormand,. I wasn't aware that Lenormand used reversals either.

 

[HOLMES]

Your right gregory, always see in the books, websites lenormand doesn't use reversals. 

I wasn't going to use them for anything else to a dear friend told me why not for an differnt oracle and that cleared a mental block for me. 

Could be in 5 10 maybe 15 to 20 years be a lenormand reversals book out there released hehe or not.(not by me but someone i bet ) 

 

 

I will read up on the website le chariot

[gregory]

There won't be such a book - unless by someone who doesn't know what they are doing. The Lenormand system is very specific in its rules - I believe the only "choices" are whether to follow the French or German tradition.

 

I think you will find some useful info here - though @katrinka please tell me if it's off. You will note it is quite specific that reversals are not used. You'll also find a bit about the playing card associations and numerology but I'm not sure how good that bit is; I am only just starting to look at Lenormand myself.

 

Please don't try and force some other system on it - the whole point of studying something new is to learn something new, not to force it into some other mould and use it that way. It isn't tarot. That's most of the point. It has set meanings - something that I am finding particularly hard, as I don't do tarot that way when I read. I don't get to say "ooh look there are clouds around that mountain, which suggests something is hidden". There isn't; I am looking at stasis, the end. This is a steep learning curve for someone who has only ever done tarot - and it deserves better than "Ooh I think I can make this like tarot if I look hard enough." Or even "I am looking to develop a new THEORY about this." Learn it as it is - it will be worth it.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, katrinka said:

I seriously doubt she was "doing it wrong." 
And I see what you mean, it would probably be very difficult to explain and not have people get all kinds of wrongheaded ideas. There's a lot of that going around...

It all centred on the mounts. Neither Mum nor the relatives who practiced use planetary names. We just refer to them by topic and significance. Other families do use the names. It’s just transmissions. I was also never taught psychic hands, conic hands, et cetera. 

 

Some of the stuff involves family anecdotes — but since her brain haemorrhage she no longer objects. I have some posts half written on palmistry, but need to get some hand prints. 

 

7 hours ago, HOLMES said:

@katrinkai sincerly thought by the comment " with a long family line of romani readers that it meant andy was carrying on that tradition being taught by his aunty who must be when i first read it roman.  I mean no disrespect to andy in that regards. I also took it that hes been reading for 20 years. 

Is it alison cross who comes from a long family line of romani readers?

Confused by the wording i am 

 

@timtoldrum  am sorry that your mom went through that.

i think we all must of went through that at some point when sharing ideas. We have traditionalists vs modernist, vs inuitatative.

Alison is just referring to the fact that several members of my mother’s family were readers (mostly palmistry, coffee grounds and few read playing cards).  However, only my Aunt Elisa used the Petit Lenormand. She later came to live with us, and she showed me how to read them. I do not who taught her but she was illiterate so must have learned off another reader. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Guest