Lenormand Cards: 6 - Clouds

[le_charior]

In the process of getting more interested in the Lenormand system these days, I was looking at quite a lot of decks. As I understand it so far, the actual images don't really matter that much, since the reading is based on the symbol and the meanings it does carry - but there are some aspects, especially direction, that do seem to matter. Where do the Gentleman and Lady face, which direction does the Rider move, what side of the Coffin is covered, where does the blade of the Scythe point... and which side of the Clouds is darker and which is lighter. 

 

Looking at the two historic decks I now have - the Brepols pattern in a Dutch language Carta Mundi edition, and the purple Dondorf (from the Fool's Dog app) I wonder why, especially the Brepols image seems to be very unclear... I hardly see any clouds on it, mainly water and some rocks, and have a really hard time telling which side, if any, is darker. On the Ur-Lenormand, as far as i can see without owning it, there also seems to be no difference in the two different sides. 

 

Did this directionality of the Clouds get added later? Does it matter? 

 

And, additional question: does it bug anyone else that some Cloud cards don't seem to really seem to show Clouds, at least not very clearly?

 

I find it so interesting how I have a tendency to have such strong opinions on visual elements of these cards, pretty much immediately after starting to use them. Clouds should be really visible and one side darker than the other! The Rider should move from left to right! The Book should be closed! The Letter should be closed, too! etc etc. Right now I am observing this in myself, but trying to stay open to different Lenormand decks and not letting my preconceptions control me too much 😉

 

If anyone has thoughts on this, it would be happy to read them, or also see other examples for Cloud cards! 

 

(Carta Mundi)

 

(Dondorf)

Edited March 19, 2021 by le_charior
typo

[DownUnderNZer]

 

Some do do directional like traditional readers and not just for Clouds. 

 

Don't think this is something that was added or modified over time going by the Game of Hope and Lenormand Symbols - could be wrong. The latter is written by Anthony Louis and I think can be bought from Amazon. 

 

I was taught directional when there were no English books around on the Lenormand, also, the importance of distance. However, as I've evolved over time, I personally feel it comes down to the reader and what feels right. Just as long as you understand the basics and fundamentals you should be fine and can't go wrong.

 

 

DND 🌞

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by DownUnderNZer
Spacing Correction

[Guest]

Hello @le_charior

 

Reference to the Clouds’ dark and light side appears in the original instructions — the so-called Philippe Lenormand sheet. 

 

There are several decks where it’s not too clear. Also, some decks did not use a light and dark motif but rather a clear and cloudy. 

 

If in doubt, you can look at the King’s regard. The direction he faces is the dark or cloudy side. In the Brepols pattern there is the rocks and disturbed water. It was clearer in the earlier editions.

 

Other cards that tend to be noted are the Serpent, the Coffin, the Scythe, Renard, the Mice, the Book and the Cross. Some cards like the Scythe, the High Tower, Cross and Mountain also have vertical directions that can be read in a GT or carré. But not all readers do so.
 

Some readers also read in the direction the significator faces. I call that directionality, to differentiate between direction which is more about nuance. 
 

The first English-language Lenormand book was a 1990s translation of Erna Droesbeke’s 1987 Dutch work. It came with a Blaue Eule in a bulky plastic box (like a VHS). They also did French and German editions.
 

That went out of print around 2003, and then you had Dos Ventos and the Steinbach in early and late 2007, respectively. 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Guest

[le_charior]

47 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

Hello @le_charior

 

Reference to the Clouds’ dark and light side appears in the original instructions — the so-called Philippe Lenormand sheet. 

Thank you! I was trying to find this on the gameofhopelenormand site, but the image doesn't come up for me - will google around a bit more to find it when I have time! 

 

47 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

There are several decks where it’s not too clear. Also, some decks did not use a light and dark motif but rather a clear and cloudy. 

 

If in doubt, you can look at the King’s regard. The direction he faces is the dark or cloudy side. In the Brepols pattern there is the rocks and disturbed water. It was clearer in the earlier editions.

Thanks again - very useful information! Now that you said it can really see the worried look on the King's face, looking towards the dark clouds, that will be easy to remember! 

 

47 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

Other cards that tend to be noted are the Serpent, the Coffin, the Scythe, Renard, the Mice, the Book and the Cross. Some cards like the Scythe, the High Tower, Cross and Mountain also have vertical directions that can be read in a GT or carré. But not all readers do so.
 

Some readers also read in the direction the significator faces. I call that directionality, to differentiate between direction which is more about nuance. 
 

The first English-language Lenormand book was a 1990s translation of Erna Droesbeke’s 1987 Dutch work. It came with a Blaue Eule in a bulky plastic box (like a VHS). They also did French and German editions.

I'll read the Droesbeke book next - will be a good exercise to practice both my Dutch and learn about Lenormand next! Two birds with one stone, so to say! 🙂 I had hoped to find it on a Tarot / cards / esoteric book shop here in Amsterdam, but all the books they had were by an author called Christiane Renner. 

 

Well noted also about directions and directionality - useful to have this distinction!

 

47 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

That went out of print around 2003, and then you had Dos Ventos and the Steinbach in early and late 2007, respectively. 

 

It is clearer on this card - even if I still see rocks and water first and mainly, and have to really think about the clouds. But at least there is no boat on the water to add to my confusion, as in some other decks! 😉

[DownUnderNZer]

 

@le_charior

 

Lenormand Symbols - Explorer The Origins of The Images On The Cards by Anthony Louis has a run down of the Phillipe Lenormand instructions under each individual card - even Dondorf.

 

Pips too and various other meanings going right back to Coffee grounds in 1796.

 

 

DND 🌞

 

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, le_charior said:

Thank you! I was trying to find this on the gameofhopelenormand site, but the image doesn't come up for me - will google around a bit more to find it when I have time! 

That is where I send people as there was a facsimile of an old American translation. Helen Riding, Björn Meuris and I have all translated old editions and there is a copy in the appendix in my book:

 

6. Clouds, when the light side faces the person, it is a happy sign, but if it is the dark side, then some problem will soon appear.

The original inference concentrated on the side “facing” the significator.  So, if you were reading for a female client with the Brepols pattern, you would prefer to see the Clouds on the right side of card 29. 

 

If it was on the left side the dark-side predominates. 

 

The astrologer Antony Louis’ text has some info. But do read with care. There are issues I will not bore you with.
 

46 minutes ago, le_charior said:

Thanks again - very useful information! Now that you said it can really see the worried look on the King's face, looking towards the dark clouds, that will be easy to remember! 

For disclosure, some readers reverse the concept so that he faces the light-side. But if one remembers he is kreuz-könig that does not make sense. 
 

46 minutes ago, le_charior said:

I'll read the Droesbeke book next - will be a good exercise to practice both my Dutch and learn about Lenormand next! Two birds with one stone, so to say! 🙂 I had hoped to find it on a Tarot / cards / esoteric book shop here in Amsterdam, but all the books they had were by an author called Christiane Renner. 

A few years back, Droesbeke rereleased the Dutch edition for its anniversary. I think it is called Kaartleggen met Mlle Lenormand. 
 

Droesbeke also provides the LWB to the Dutch, English and (I believe) German Carta Mundis. 
 

46 minutes ago, le_charior said:

Well noted also about directions and directionality - useful to have this distinction!

I prefer the distinction. It makes sense to me. But others disagree. What I never understood was why, if we change the direction we read, we do not change the direction we lay the cards. It seems inconsistent and odd. 

 

46 minutes ago, le_charior said:

It is clearer on this card - even if I still see rocks and water first and mainly, and have to really think about the clouds. But at least there is no boat on the water to add to my confusion, as in some other decks! 😉

Well I don’t want to add to the confusion. But the Boat motif on the Ship, Fishes and Anchor is a useful reminder that those three cards have connected significations lol. 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Guest

[fire cat pickles]

39 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

 

 Helen Riding, Björn Meuris and I have all translated old editions and there is a copy in the appendix in my book:

 

 

@le_charior you can also do a google search for helen riding's lenormand dictionary. It should be the first hit. 

Edited March 19, 2021 by fire cat pickles

[Guest]

Just now, fire cat pickles said:

You can also do a google search for helen riding's lenormand dictionary. It should the first hit. 

Hello @fire cat pickles How are you? I didn’t know it was still up.

 

@le_charior Helen’s translation was commissioned, and the German instructions she worked from were/are considered to be the oldest surviving. 
 

They were originally printed for a deck now held in a private collection. A beautiful facsimile was issued in the 1980s (Leipzig), which was then reissued by Alexandre Gluck. 

[katrinka]

3 hours ago, le_charior said:

Thank you! I was trying to find this on the gameofhopelenormand site, but the image doesn't come up for me - will google around a bit more to find it when I have time! 

 

I'll just leave this here.

https://marygreer.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/evening-worlds-magazine-tell-fortunes-1903-version-21.jpg

 

[joy]

On 3/19/2021 at 11:58 AM, katrinka said:

 

I'll just leave this here.

https://marygreer.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/evening-worlds-magazine-tell-fortunes-1903-version-21.jpg

 

wow amazing, thanks !

[le_charior]

Yes! Thank you! (am away from the computer this weekend, so only a short thanks right now, will read all properly next week!) 

[Misterei]

#6 Clouds. I struggle to know the difference between catastrophizing Clouds or sugar-coating them.

In the original text we have only: Clouds if their clear side is turned towards the Person, are a lucky sign; with their dark side turned to the Person, something disagreeable will soon happen.

Disagreeable covers a wide range of experiences! They didn't use the word "catastrophic" but rain at harvest time could be a huge problem back in the day [for example]. Even today bad weather can cause chaos for air travel or shipping.

 

In MOD clouds are said to cloud other cards. Clouds near are trouble. Above is much worse than below. Clouds alters Clover, Stars, Tower, Crossroads, Letter, and Lilly which cards become negative with Clouds near.

 

In top line of this GT, clouds is above the Lady with the dark side facing her. Yikes!

But Clouds fall to the left which makes them past troubles or troubles of shorter duration.

 

Clouds strikes me as one of the most difficult cards to assess the severity. Is it foggy weather? or a ruined harvest and starvation?

 

Edited April 29, 2024 by Misterei

[joy]

Hey @Misterei what was the question?

[Misterei]

deleted. off topic

Edited April 29, 2024 by Misterei

[akiva]

10 hours ago, Misterei said:

But Clouds fall to the left which makes them past troubles or troubles of shorter duration.

From memory is it not cards that fall to the left of Clouds (if the light side is leftwards) that get lessened? Or is it just all cards that fall to the left of the querent?

[joy]

According to many, the Clouds is one of the most difficult cards. It is a storm and yes it will pass but still it is a storm. You do not want to have it close to you/significator. Andy B says if it is left of the signifcator the problems/issues are of shorter duration. If to your right, the storm is ahead of you. And he said if the dark side of the clouds is to the right, it is up to you to reverse this rule.

 

I do not think that the clouds-star combo shows an end to the issue at hand.

@Misterei I think we should move this as it is becoming a personal reading. What do you think?

[Misterei]

@joy I deleted the personal  bits to keep on topic of assessing the Clouds generally.

[Misterei]

7 hours ago, akiva said:

From memory is it not cards that fall to the left of Clouds (if the light side is leftwards) that get lessened? Or is it just all cards that fall to the left of the querent?

Both. Andy B. says specifically Clouds have "shorter duration" to the left.

Then there's the general 'unwritten rule' that left = past or not as important and right = future or more important.

 

This gives 2 different approaches to Clouds on the left.

1. Andy B approach = still bad, still coming, but shorter duration.
2. General cartomancy = past or not as important.

 

I struggle to know which to apply. The approaches are somewhat similar ... yet different enough to change the severity of the card vis a vis predictions of future. The original word "disagreeable" is so ambiguous. It doesn't help rate the severity.

 

Edited April 29, 2024 by Misterei

[akiva]

6 hours ago, Misterei said:

I struggle to know which to apply. The approaches are somewhat similar ... yet different enough to change the severity of the card vis a vis predictions of future. The original word "disagreeable" is so ambiguous. It doesn't help rate the severity.

Do you think it would be best to pick one of the 2 and try using that in your readings? If it doesn't work, then you can swap to the other one!

Though I think Andy B's interpretation of "still bad, still coming, but of shorter duration" is referring to the light side of the Clouds card. In your case, the dark side is touching Stars, so maybe apply the unspoken rule? 🤔

 

Regarding the original word, I think it was used to show it's not the worst card in the deck, which is Cross going by the PL sheet.

I do think it's better to use the word "problems" for Clouds and look to the cards nearby to describe said problem. This is on Andy B's site:

"6. Clouds, when the light side faces the person, it is a happy sign, but if it is the dark side, then some problem will soon appear."

 

A lot easier than disagreeable! 🤣 To see what problem look to Stars and Paths, which could be issues/lack of clarity around making a choice. 

[joy]

@Misterei also worth noting is, that the clouds are above the Path/Crossroad. Do you have to make a decision? If yes, I think it is not going to be easy.

[Misterei]

4 minutes ago, akiva said:

Do you think it would be best to pick one of the 2 and try using that in your readings? ...

I hear what you say ...  I'm leaning toward the general cartomancy method of Left=past and right=future. But this goes somewhat against the traditional grain of PL instructions and Andy B. book. So it's a sticky wicket. Then there's the decks with a clear 2-sided could vs. decks where a cloud is a cloud. *sigh*.

 

In Tarot I have methods that tell me how severe is the Tower [for example]. In Tarot I can tell whether the Devil means your accountant embezzled all your money and you're ruined vs. your product launch got delayed a few days.

 

In Lenormand? Ugh!

 

[Misterei]

10 minutes ago, joy said:

... also worth noting is, that the clouds are above the Path/Crossroad. Do you have to make a decision? If yes, I think it is not going to be easy.

Here's the thing. The Clouds over crossroads [difficult, confusing, decisoin] hits 100% for recent past events.

 

As I was mentioning to @akiva ... my mind tends to work on the general cartomancy track of left=past and right=future. Which isn't proper/pure Lenormand per se ... but if a readers' mind works that way ... the cards may fall that way for that reader. [in this case, moi]

 

I'm still experimenting both with how to time Clouds and how to weigh their severity. *sigh*

Edited April 29, 2024 by Misterei

[Rose Lalonde]

1 hour ago, Misterei said:

Then there's the decks with a clear 2-sided could vs. decks where a cloud is a cloud. *sigh*.

That's a picky pet peeve for me. I like a clear dark and light side with dark on the left. Luckily both of the decks I use regularly meet the requirements. 

 

I read clouds as the worst card in the deck because it can even turn positive cards negative just by being near to them. In the PL sheet, Clover becoming 'great pain', for example. The Tower's 'happy old age' becomes sickness. 

 

That said, if I did a GT for the month ahead, the Clouds is going to be in there every month darkening several cards every time. I thankfully don't have a terrible month every month. Like you, @Misterei, I find myself wondering what the severity will be. In general readings I don't read Clouds literally as weather; I do that sort of thing more when I ask where a missing item is. But that's not because I think it's wrong. I just consider myself a beginner and have stuck close to the PL sheet and Andy. I don't have the comfort level I do with tarot after a couple of decades -- you know when you start to get idiosyncratic because you've read so many times that you know when a card means something particular for you that you won't find in any book. And also, idiosyncrasies are not encouraged in Lenormand circles. (I actually don't mind that. It makes reading Lenormand refreshingly different from reading tarot when I want a change.)

Edited April 30, 2024 by Rose Lalonde
typo

[akiva]

8 hours ago, Misterei said:

I hear what you say ...  I'm leaning toward the general cartomancy method of Left=past and right=future. But this goes somewhat against the traditional grain of PL instructions and Andy B. book.

You're allowed to make your own methods, the lenormand swat team won't take you to jail! 😁 Next time you do a GT just experiment with the intention that anything to the left has weakened/diminished and see what happens 

 

8 hours ago, Misterei said:

Then there's the decks with a clear 2-sided could vs. decks where a cloud is a cloud. *sigh*.

Andys remedy to this when it's not clear, is to look at the direction the King of Clubs is facing as the more severe side 😊

 

8 hours ago, Misterei said:

In Tarot I have methods that tell me how severe is the Tower [for example]. In Tarot I can tell whether the Devil means your accountant embezzled all your money and you're ruined vs. your product launch got delayed a few days.

 

In Lenormand? Ugh!

How long have you been reading Tarot vs Lenormand? Don't be hard on yourself, you'll develop all these sort of tricks in time, enjoy the journey 🤗

[Misterei]

17 hours ago, Rose Lalonde said:

That's a picky pet peeve for me. I like a clear dark and light side with dark on the left. Luckily both of the decks I use regularly meet the requirements. 

Yes. My Blaue Eule has very obvious dark and light side and the King faces the dark side. Nothing ambiguous there!

17 hours ago, Rose Lalonde said:

I read clouds as the worst card in the deck because it can even turn positive cards negative just by being near to them. In the PL sheet, Clover becoming 'great pain', for example. The Tower's 'happy old age' becomes sickness. 

In that respect I see Clouds a bit like Devil in Tarot. Other than my recent experiences with the helpful side of Devil, I typically find Devil evokes the shadow side of cards it combines with, especially Cups.

17 hours ago, Rose Lalonde said:

That said, if I did a GT for the month ahead, the Clouds is going to be in there every month darkening several cards every time. I thankfully don't have a terrible month every month....  I find myself wondering what the severity will be. ...I don't have the comfort level... when you start to get idiosyncratic because you've read so many times that you know when a card means something particular for you that you won't find in any book. And also, idiosyncrasies are not encouraged in Lenormand circles.

LOL the wonderful world of LN inconsistencies🤣 If we go ONLY by the PL instructions, if the Clouds fall far from the Person card ... it's actually good news.

Clouds if their clear side is turned towards the Person, are a lucky sign; with their dark side turned to the Person, something disagreeable will soon happen.

 

NOTE: my erroneous post was later corrected by @Rose Lalonde 

In PL text Negative combination is mentioned for Clouds with: Clover, Stars, Dog, Tower, Crossroads, Letter, and Lilly

 

Meanwhile, I intend to experiment until I find my "working idiocyncracies" with LN.

10 hours ago, akiva said:

You're allowed to make your own methods, the lenormand swat team won't take you to jail! 😁 Next time you do a GT just experiment with the intention that anything to the left has weakened/diminished and see what happens 

Lenormand SWAT team. Yikes! 😱

In Lenormand Jail they lock you in a cell with the Clouds, the Coffin, and the Cross, while Fox and Snake look on and laugh at your torment and the Birds yell, "Shame Shame!". They feed you bread and water but the Mice will try to nibble it unless you drive them off.

And, yes, this discussion has led me to some Conclusions I'll note in my journal. In the foreseeable future I intend to go with my gut about left=past and apply that to Clouds; but also give some attention to the other methods since I am still in the experimental stage.

10 hours ago, akiva said:

How long have you been reading Tarot vs Lenormand?

LOL 45 years vs. 5 years [on and off]. Until now, I never studied LN deeply. I used it only as an add-on for my Tarot readings in a surface way. Whereas I've always studied Tarot deeply.

Edited April 30, 2024 by Misterei