Thoth : Etteilla vs Crowley

[jaygon]

Hi all,

 

I'm not as familiar with the Thoth system of Tarot reading as with the RWS System but understood (based on background reading) the Thoth system to be based on the Crowley/Harris Deck which was, in turn, based on Crowley's 1944 Book of Thoth.

 

I have more recently come across a reference to Le Grand Etteilla, which is also referred to as a 'Thoth Deck'.

 

As Le Grand Etteilla is an older Tarot system, it obviously pre-dates Crowley's Thoth. Are both systems equally known as 'Thoth' or is Grand Etteilla a fourth system of Tarot (parallel to RWS/TdeM/Crowley's Thoth)? 

 

Most sources seem to accredit Thoth solely to Crowley.

 

I'm presuming that Le Petit Etteilla is something completely different?

 

Best again,

 

Jay

[vulprix]

Hi Jay!

 

When people refer to the “Thoth” tarot as a system (in the same sense as RWS or Tarot de Marseille), they are referring to the Crowley/Harris Thoth Tarot.  The Crowley/Harris Thoth deck actually has some major similarities to the RWS system, but it makes some overt changes per Aleister’s will, and I would say is a lot less subtle. Magnificent deck. I love it 🥰

 

I am much more familiar with the Crowley/Harris Thoth deck than Etteilla deck(s). But it’s my understanding that Etteilla tarots referring to Thoth are referring to the fact that Alliette, the French occultist who developed the Etteilla tarot subscribed to the word-of-mouth that the tarot arose out of ancient Egypt, from their god, Thoth.

(‘Etteilla’ is ‘Alliette’ spelled backwards 🙃)

 

Crowley’s Thoth Tarot is attributed in much the same way—in the Egyptian tradition, to the god Thoth. You can see this on a number of cards, like Crowley’s Trump XX “The Aeon” (instead of ‘Judgement’), which depicts the turning of the times from the Aeon of Isis, to the Aeon of Osiris, to the Aeon of Horus—per Egyptain mythology.

*wanted to add that Etteilla decks are WAY different from Crowley Thoth decks. Totally different system. They are not mainstream at all, and personally, I don’t know how to read them. I do have a copy of a Grimaud Etteilla deck though. Maybe I will learn to read it one day...

Edited July 2, 2021 by vulprix
Final note

[jaygon]

Hi Vulprix!

 

Thank you so much for the reply. I had assumed that when readers refer to the ‘Thoth’ system, they were indeed referring to Crowley’s work which is why  I was so confused when I came across Etteilla. Crowley was possibly influenced by the work of Alliette? 

 

I gather from your response that there are more than one Etteilla deck/system for reading Le Grand Etteilla? 

 

Are there many older Tarot systems (forgive my ignorance) which pre-date the now-current mainstream three (RWS, TdeM, Thoth)? 
 

ps. Le Petit Etteilla is stripped playing card deck, rather than tarot, right? 
 

Jay 

[TheLoracular]

HI @jaygon

Like @vulprix, I have a Etteilla deck that I have not yet started to use:  This one specifically.    Le Petit Etteila is a fortune-telling deck, just not an esoteric one.  Etteila himself was a contemporary of Eliphas Levi and they didn't like or respect each other very much.  Etteila is often written off by Qabalists (people who link the 22 Aramaic letters to the tarot cards which is everyone from the Golden Dawn) as "just a fortune teller making a buck" but even if he started out that way, he didn't end that way.  Etteila focused on astrology (and possibly some alchemy), not Christian Cabala.  Everyone back then was looking to Egypt as a source for "occult" wisdom and that is how Thoth gets brought into the equation.

Even if Etteila and everyone else was misguided in their pre-Rosetta stone understanding of Egyptian hieroglyphs and had a very glamourized and mythical understanding of the Hermes-Thoth mystery cults of the ancient Ptolemaic/Hellenistic world?  None of them were completely wrong either, if you want to trace where stuff like the four classic elements, the zodiac, Pythagorean numerology, etc.,. etc., originated.  "Egypt" especially Alexandria did have a huge influence on all of that.   Its just so did Greece and Mesopotamia.  🙂

Etteilla like the other French occultists used the pips we associated with Tarot de Marseilles; if you've ever read with that type of deck, learning Etteilla's would be easy.  His system is remarked on by Papus in Tarot of the Bohemians but that is a book better for learning 1800s-1900s French occultism vs. learning divination.  

There is a book that I'm just ~about~ to start reading called Occult Paris: The Lost Magic of the Belle Époque  that I'm really super excited about because it basically tells the story of Etteilla, Papus, and how the French Occult tarot tradition (and the drama between different French occultists) happened.  This was happening more or less at the same time that the Golden Dawn (Mathers, A.E. Waite, Paul Foster Case, Crowley) were busy in England having their drama the same way if not worse.

Also, the English tarot-magicians and the French tarot-magicians apparently hated the other faction even more than they hated members within their own faction which is why so little of the Fench occult tradition got published into English.  LOL.    For that matter, a lot of people in the modern esoteric tarot community have a strong favoritism towards either Continental tarot vs. English/American tarot to this day.    Crowley is part of English/American tarot;  Etteila is part of French/Constinental tarot.   ~Most~ tarot readers I personally know just like.... tarot.   They don't deeply devote themselves to the esotericism (aka Qabalah or stuff like Golden Dawn-based, or Papus/Wirth/Levi-based texts), even if their decks were created by magicians-mystics.

This is a link about the French occult tradition on one of my favorite tarot websites.

 

[jaygon]

This detailed information is fascinating and really really appreciated! 

[katrinka]

5 hours ago, jaygon said:

I'm not as familiar with the Thoth system of Tarot reading as with the RWS System but understood (based on background reading) the Thoth system to be based on the Crowley/Harris Deck which was, in turn, based on Crowley's 1944 Book of Thoth.

 

I have more recently come across a reference to Le Grand Etteilla, which is also referred to as a 'Thoth Deck'.

 

Etteilla's predilection for Egypt aside, I suspect the Thoth association comes from this reproduction of a later Etteilla deck:

https://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/book-of-thoth-etteilla/

 

"Book of Thoth" is simply the title Lo Scarabeo gave it. They probably thought it would be good for sales. It's NOT a Thoth, nor does it follow the same system.

 

5 hours ago, jaygon said:

As Le Grand Etteilla is an older Tarot system, it obviously pre-dates Crowley's Thoth. Are both systems equally known as 'Thoth' or is Grand Etteilla a fourth system of Tarot (parallel to RWS/TdeM/Crowley's Thoth)? 
 

 

Etteilla's system is his own and is not known as "Thoth." Just "Etteilla" will do. 😉
 

5 hours ago, jaygon said:

Most sources seem to accredit Thoth solely to Crowley.

 

They are correct, though I suspect Lady Harris contributed more than she was given credit for.
 

5 hours ago, jaygon said:

I'm presuming that Le Petit Etteilla is something completely different?

 

Yes, it's a method for reading a piquet deck:

 

 

Additionally, the Petit Oracle des Dames is heavily Etteilla-based. It's a wonderful little deck, reads true, and its surprisingly easy.

https://thecartomancer.bigcartel.com/product/etteilla-s-petite-oracle-des-dames-c-1780-1807

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by katrinka

[jaygon]

Thanks so much! Not to go too-off topic but is the original Le Petit Etteilla currently available in an English translation deck? 

[katrinka]

Yes, it is. I recall people saying that there were some issues with the translation, but it does look usable:

https://www.thegamecrafter.com/games/petit-etteilla-in-english

 

There appears to be another one available. I don't know if it's better, though.

https://www.makeplayingcards.com/sell/marketplace/petit-etteilla-in-english.html

Edited July 2, 2021 by katrinka

[_R_]

Alliette called the Tarot "The Book of Thot," elaborating on Court de Gébelin's characterisation of the deck as a heritage of Egyptian wisdom.

 

Alliette was a century earlier than the Belle Époque, and half a century earlier than Éliphas Lévi. His body of work, now mostly available as scans in French, still awaits a proper appraisal and study, never mind translation.

 

Far from being "not mainstream," if we look closely at what happened in the 19th century, it becomes clear that even though Alliette was criticised by many of the later occultists, his cartomantic readings were still very much the norm, in the absence of anything else, until the end of the 19th century at least. One can see this from the second book Papus published on the subject, now available in English as The Divinatory Tarot, which is essentially a crib of Alliette's works. So there has been a lot of osmosis in this respect, even if the more complex spreads and rules Alliette set up have now been largely left aside.

 

That is not to say that later generations did not take exception to some of his definitions, they did, but they did not reject his system outright, as the prevailing view would have it.

 

There is a lot more obscure overlap between the Continental and Anglo-American traditions (and personal contact between their members) than is generally suspected, but this is a little-researched area, aside from Dummett, Decker and Depaulis' books A Wicked Pack of Cards and A History of the Occult Tarot, which are well worth reading.

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, _R_ said:

Alliette called the Tarot "The Book of Thot," elaborating on Court de Gébelin's characterisation of the deck as a heritage of Egyptian wisdom.

 

Thanks so much for clearing that up, _R_ - I was aware that Etteilla ascribed Egyptian origins to Tarot, but not his use of the phrase "Book of Thoth."
 

1 hour ago, _R_ said:

Alliette was a century earlier than the Belle Époque, and half a century earlier than Éliphas Lévi. His body of work, now mostly available as scans in French, still awaits a proper appraisal and study, never mind translation.

 

Yes. That leaves us with massive blind spots. I wish publishers would concentrate on translating these old works rather than churning out "How To Learn Tarot In 10 Minutes" and books of endless spreads type dribble.
 

1 hour ago, _R_ said:

Far from being "not mainstream," if we look closely at what happened in the 19th century, it becomes clear that even though Alliette was criticised by many of the later occultists, his cartomantic readings were still very much the norm, in the absence of anything else, until the end of the 19th century at least. One can see this from the second book Papus published on the subject, now available in English as The Divinatory Tarot, which is essentially a crib of Alliette's works. So there has been a lot of osmosis in this respect, even if the more complex spreads and rules Alliette set up have now been largely left aside.

 

The influence can definitely be seen. Even in the 1970's, authors were saying Tarot comes from Egypt. Of course this has been thoroughly debunked, but I fear people are throwing the baby out with the bathwater

 

[_R_]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

Thanks so much for clearing that up, _R_ - I was aware that Etteilla ascribed Egyptian origins to Tarot, but not his use of the phrase "Book of Thoth."

Yes, he was also responsible for a number of other terms and ideas usually attributed to later writers, for instance, calling the cards lames - thin strips of metal, on which the designs were engraved. This is even now still a common term for the cards of the tarot pack, as opposed to ordinary playing cards.

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

Yes. That leaves us with massive blind spots. I wish publishers would concentrate on translating these old works rather than churning out "How To Learn Tarot In 10 Minutes" and books of endless spreads type dribble.

I think it is unlikely a mainstream publisher would take on a project like Etteilla. One of my correspondents is working on a massive and very comprehensive Etteilla project, which ought to clarify his Tarot system. In the mean time, the translations scattered about on the Tarot History Forum are very helpful as a rule, not to mention freely available.

 

Those with patience and a taste for deciphering 18th century cursive will enjoy General Rainsford's renditions of Etteilla, and one must bear in mind that he would attended Alliette's talks and workshops in Paris before the Revolution.

 

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

The influence can definitely be seen. Even in the 1970's, authors were saying Tarot comes from Egypt. Of course this has been thoroughly debunked, but I fear people are throwing the baby out with the bathwater

 

 

One of the issues is that, while we know of the Bologna cartomancy tradition, perhaps in inverted commas, there is no evidence for anything similar in France prior to Etteilla, as far as I recall. Despite his claims that he learned from an Italian gent, nobody else appears to have done the same, although Etteilla himself criticises de Mellet (the second author in Court de Gébelin's book) who he claimed had only learned a few tricks from his kitchen maid. Was that a simple put-down, or did it point to some more extensive folk tradition? It's too sketchy to say, and whatever else was going on, it does not seem to have left any traces at all: everything else later is more or less derived from Etteilla and his system.

[jaygon]

So were all three (I have found reference to three) Grand Etteilla Deck systems created by Alliette himself, during his own lifetime? 
 

Have all three been reproduced and/or been made available on the English speaking market?

[katrinka]

10 hours ago, _R_ said:

I think it is unlikely a mainstream publisher would take on a project like Etteilla. One of my correspondents is working on a massive and very comprehensive Etteilla project, which ought to clarify his Tarot system.

 

That would be very helpful - I hit a wall with the Etteilla some time ago!
 

10 hours ago, _R_ said:

In the mean time, the translations scattered about on the Tarot History Forum are very helpful as a rule, not to mention freely available.

 

I need to revisit that place. A lot of what I saw there was just endless images of different versions of decks, so I drifted away. I'll go back and look for translations - thanks!
 

10 hours ago, _R_ said:

One of the issues is that, while we know of the Bologna cartomancy tradition, perhaps in inverted commas, there is no evidence for anything similar in France prior to Etteilla, as far as I recall. Despite his claims that he learned from an Italian gent, nobody else appears to have done the same, although Etteilla himself criticises de Mellet (the second author in Court de Gébelin's book) who he claimed had only learned a few tricks from his kitchen maid. Was that a simple put-down, or did it point to some more extensive folk tradition? It's too sketchy to say, and whatever else was going on, it does not seem to have left any traces at all: everything else later is more or less derived from Etteilla and his system.

 

It's my personal belief that card reading has existed in some form as long as cards have, since people are naturally inclined to look for signs and patterns and cards offer a perfect medium for this. Maybe nothing elaborate, and possibly as simple as cutting the pack and noting the suit or the number, considering certain cards lucky or unlucky. It's possible this was refined into a method or methods. If it was passed orally, it's lost in time and we may never find proof of it. But I don't debate the point, it would amount to asking the other person to prove a negative. Totally nonsensical. 😉

[Guest]

 

8 hours ago, jaygon said:

So were all three (I have found reference to three) Grand Etteilla Deck systems created by Alliette himself, during his own lifetime? 

 

The tarot historians often refer to the Grand Etteilla’s as I, II and III, &c.  As far as I recall, there is no extant copy of GE I (Etteilla’s actual deck).  II and III were published after his death. 

 

The deck TheLoracular linked to, I believe, is GE III.  I prefer the pattern published by Grimaud but use a facsimile version.  In the current edition, Grimaud replaced Etteilla’s keywords.  There are no English books or resources on the Etteilla decks/systems.  

 

As @_R_ stated, Etteilla's works are (mostly) available in eighteenth century French.  However, despite the criticism he received, most occultists appropriate his work/ideas. 

Edited July 3, 2021 by Guest

[devin]

Michael Howard has some Etteilla translations (and musings) up. The descriptions below are those provided by himself.

 

http://etteillastrumps.blogspot.com/ Etteilla's comments on the trump cards of his deck, in his 2nd Cahier.

 

http://thirdcahier.blogspot.com/ Original French and translation of Etteilla's 3rd  Cashier, plus its supplements. These discuss the keywords on the cards and how to do readings.

 

http://neopythagoreanisminthetrot.blogspot.com/  Discusses Etteilla's followers' word-lists for the numeral cards and connects them, by means of Neopythagorean writings, with the corresponding images of the Sola-Busca deck of c. 1491 and the Waite-Smith deck of 1910.

 

http://templeinmemphis.blogspot.com/ Discusses a diagram that is the frontispiece to Etteilla's Leçons Théoreque et Pratique du Livre de Thot in terms of an essay by his follower Hugand, of which I translate the relevant portion. 

 

http://etteillasangelology.blogspot.com/ Translates and discusses the portion of Etteilla's 1785 book Philosophie des Hautes Sciences that deals with the "72 angels of God".)

 

A full listing of Mr. Howard's multitudinous and very worthwhile blogs can be found here: https://www.blogger.com/profile/06488567669455421279

 

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by devin

[jaygon]

Just as an afterthought : Is Crowley’s Thoth deck a standard design or are there variations, much like the RWS and TdM decks? 

I do know that there are different deck sizes but wondered about variation in design.

 

I have the both the AGM and the US Games releases. 

Edited August 6, 2021 by jaygon

[gregory]

I have never seen a "genuine Thoth" deck that was sort of redone like the Smith-Waite - as in almost identical in design but not (think the Radiant etc.) The closest I have EVER seen is the LiberT.

 

https://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/liber-stars-eternal/

 

But just as Baroque Bohemian Cats is seen as being "in the Waite tradition", the Love is in the Earth tarot claims to be in the Thoth tradition.

 

https://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/love-earth-crystal/ 

 

as does the Sun and Moon https://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/sun-moon/

 

There are also decks like the Rosetta and the Tabula Mundi - but they are much more Golden Dawn than Crowley.

 

If I understand your question correctly - no.

[jaygon]

Meaning the US Games version and the AGM version are an exact reproduction of the original Crowley/Harris deck?

 

 

[katrinka]

More or less. But these gold box editions are more correct:

https://picclick.com/Aleister-Crowley-Thoth-Tarot-Cards-Deck-Gold-Box-382466825335.html

 

[jaygon]

Interesting. Is it the colour reproduction which is superior in the Gold Box?

[katrinka]

Yes. It tells you everything at the link.

[jaygon]

Regarding the modern Grand Etteilla decks (Etteilla III) ; is there a difference between the decks which are titled : 

 

Grand Etteilla

Le tarot égyptien

Grand Jeu de l'Oracle des dames

 

Different titles of the same deck or altogether different decks? 

 

[katrinka]

58 minutes ago, jaygon said:

Grand Etteilla

 

https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-4740225

 

58 minutes ago, jaygon said:

Le tarot égyptien

 

https://www.amazon.com/Tarot-Egyptiens-Anima-Antiqua-Etteilla/dp/0738760595

 

https://tarotgarden.com/tarot-egyptien-grand-jeu-de-loracle-des-dames/

 

58 minutes ago, jaygon said:

Grand Jeu de l'Oracle des dames

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=Grand+Jeu+de+l'Oracle+des+dames&tbm=isch&chips=q:grand+jeu+de+l+oracle+des+dames,online_chips:dusserre:DAbPC9OArPU%3D&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiGkrPHvaf0AhUDKa0KHXf-CmwQ4lYoA3oECAEQGA&biw=1349&bih=605

 

58 minutes ago, jaygon said:

Different titles of the same deck or altogether different decks? 

I'm seeing two different decks here, but not three. LS is fond of giving decks misleading titles for some reason. They published that last one as "The Book of Thoth Etteilla." 😬

 

When talking about these in a historical context, use the real (original) titles. When shopping, well...a google image search is your friend.

[AJ-ish/Sharyn]

there is quite a bit of difference between my Grand Etteilla (left) 1977 edition, and  Tarot Egyptien Oracle de Dames (right) also a 1977 edition. Both have plain pips. Same decks but Dames is more elegant I think. And the little books included are very fortune telling oriented. 

If I haven't already said so, welcome to the forum 🙂 

[jaygon]

Thank you 🙂 

 

So two very different decks. I wonder if there are many more decks which fit into the Etteilla III/Grand Etteilla category?