jaygon Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 I wondered if both Le Livre du Destin and Le Petit Cartomancien are derived from this French Parlour Sibilla? Are there other French Sibilla decks? Also wondered if Le Jeu du Destin Antique (Piatnik) is related to this family of decks?
reall Posted July 22, 2021 Posted July 22, 2021 wopc list Le Livre du Destin as printed by Grimaud (aka same publisher) & France section: https://www.wopc.co.uk/france/livre-du-destin I'm not expert but looks similar to me!:) also here is another listed as French https://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/la-vera-sibilla/ I prefer Italian version the one LS publish (older with playing card inserts!:)
Guest Posted July 25, 2021 Posted July 25, 2021 On 7/22/2021 at 5:58 PM, jaygon said: I wondered if both Le Livre du Destin and Le Petit Cartomancien are derived from this French Parlour Sibilla? I cannot remember which of the three is older but they all derive from the “parlour oracles.” The Petit Lenormand is a member of this family, too. I use the Sibylle des Salons a lot and like the Petit Cartomancien too.
jaygon Posted July 27, 2021 Author Posted July 27, 2021 Interesting. I didn't know that Le Petit Lenormand was part of this family. Are there many other French Parlour Oracles? Perhaps Le Jeu du Destin Antique also fits into this category?
katrinka Posted July 27, 2021 Posted July 27, 2021 The Jeu du Destin Antique is a Sibilla. Then there's the Petit Oracle des Dames. It does stray into Etteilla Tarot a bit, but it has playing card insets, so it's a Sibilla-type deck. I think that the confusion stems from the titles. People see "Sibyl" or "Sibilla" and start grouping decks accordingly. But you can't pay attention to titles, they're often sales gimmicks. Lenormand started in Germany, not Paris. And it's the same broad type as the others.
jaygon Posted July 27, 2021 Author Posted July 27, 2021 4 minutes ago, katrinka said: The Jeu du Destin Antique is a Sibilla. Then there's the Petit Oracle des Dames. It does stray into Etteilla Tarot a bit, but it has playing card insets, so it's a Sibilla-type deck. I think that the confusion stems from the titles. People see "Sibyl" or "Sibilla" and start grouping decks accordingly. But you can't pay attention to titles, they're often sales gimmicks. Lenormand started in Germany, not Paris. And it's the same broad type as the others. As always Katrinka, you are a wealth of information (particularly for an interested newbie like myself). I can't find a lot of information online on the various Sibilla decks (Sibilla origins, Sibilla decks by country of origin, which Sibilla decks came first, which Sibilla decks are derived from others etc. etc.) I'm guessing that both Kipper and Bohemian decks were influenced by the earlier Sibillas.
jaygon Posted August 10, 2021 Author Posted August 10, 2021 So I’m hoping to create a list of known Sibilla decks. As there seems to be limited information online, I was hoping that folks could make further suggestions to the below list : French : La Sybille des Salons Le Livre du Destin Le Petit Cartomancien Le Jeu du Destin Antique Le Petit Oracle des Dames German : Le Petit Lenormand Sibille Italian : La Vera Sibilla Sibilla Della Zingara Sibilla Originale del 1890* *Is this the same deck as La Vera Sibilla?
gregory Posted August 10, 2021 Posted August 10, 2021 (edited) 19 minutes ago, jaygon said: Sibilla Originale del 1890* *Is this the same deck as La Vera Sibilla? Depends where you look. I'd say no. https://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/la-vera-sibilla/ https://tarotbg.eu/en/il-meneghello-decks/302-sibilla-originale-1890.html BUT: https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/890669870/rare-sibilla-originale-del-1890-per Edited August 10, 2021 by gregory
katrinka Posted August 11, 2021 Posted August 11, 2021 It's the same pattern. It's just tinted in watercolors. There are a lot of variations on La Vera, with and without lottery numbers and reversed meanings text. It would be impossible to list all the Italian Sibillas, much less all Sibillas. Many have come and gone without us ever knowing of them - it's not unusual for antique decks to turn up that no one has seen before. The Sibilla della Zingara is a LS reproduction of a deck published in the late 20's or early 30's by Faustino Solesio, and it should be referred to as the Faustino Solesio, not the Sibilla della Zingara - you wouldn't use "French Cartomancy" as a catch-all for the Dondorf pattern, after all. More recently, there's been I Misteri Sibilla, Sibilla '800 and La Magica Sibilla. Probably others, too. It's hugely popular in Italy and I'm told you can get Sibillas at supermarket checkouts, the way we can get pocket horoscopes and Farmer's Almanacs. There are American Sibilla-type decks, too - usually Lenormand knockoffs. Here are a couple of examples: http://gameofhopelenormand.bigcartel.com/product/old-gypsy-fortune-cards-c-1940 http://gameofhopelenormand.bigcartel.com/product/nielen-lenormand I've probably confused the issue more than I've helped, but it is what it is.
katrinka Posted August 11, 2021 Posted August 11, 2021 3 hours ago, jaygon said: Sibille What's this?
katrinka Posted August 11, 2021 Posted August 11, 2021 (edited) Something that might simplify this is that the Italian Sibillas all follow the same system. So you could just do a catch-all like you did with Petit Lenormand. It's the French ones that are all different, though Petit Cartomancien does have a lot of similarities to the Parlor Sybille. And you can add the Grand Jeu to the list. Edited August 11, 2021 by katrinka
Decan Posted August 11, 2021 Posted August 11, 2021 The Oracle Belline could be added to the French list, since it is a sibyl; aesthetically it looks different than the other ones but it is I think. I haven’t the exact definition of what a sibyl is though. A deck used for divination that isn’t Tarot?
jaygon Posted August 11, 2021 Author Posted August 11, 2021 6 hours ago, katrinka said: What's this? 1870 by Conrad Jegel entitled ” Sibille , the fortune telling gypsy mother.” https://tarotator.com/the-gypsy-fortune-telling-cards/ I imagine that it might also be suitable to add the Bohemian family decks to the list. French : La Sybille des Salons Le Livre du Destin Le Petit Cartomancien Le Jeu du Destin Antique Le Petit Oracle des Dames The Oracle Belline German : Le Petit Lenormand Le Grand Jeu de Lenormand Sibille (Conrad Jegel) Austrian : Art Deco Fortune Telling Cards (52 cards) Zigeuner Wahrsageketen (36 cards) Biedermeier Aufschlagkarten (32 cards)* *Is there a variation of this last deck with 36 cards? Italian : La Vera Sibilla Sibilla Della Zingara/Sibilla Faustino Solesio IMisteri Sibilla Sibilla '800 La Magica Sibilla Sibilla Della Fortuna Sibilla Originale del 1890 US : Bohemian Witch *Various Petit Lenormand style decks, some titled in the Bohemian category. ** There are lots of Petit Lenormand decks (knockoffs) which deviate from the original standard 1799 pattern, meanings etc? Ps. Is there a modern reproduction of La Vera Sibilla (possibly the LS Everyday Oracle or Masenghini) which follows the original pattern and system, complete with lottery numbers and reversed meaning texts?
Decan Posted August 11, 2021 Posted August 11, 2021 (edited) Concerning Germany don't forget the most important maybe: the Kipper! ETA: le Grand Jeu de Mlle Lenormand ou Grand Lenormand (called as well the Astro Mythological by Mlle Lenormand) is French not German, while the Petit Lenormand is German, well... 🙃 Edited August 11, 2021 by Decan
jaygon Posted August 11, 2021 Author Posted August 11, 2021 I wasn’t sure whether or not to include the Kipper! I guess it comes back to the definition of a Sibilla deck : Is it a requirement for this type of deck to have (or to have originally had) the cartomancy insets? I’m not sure if Kipper cards ever had corresponding playing card insets.
katrinka Posted August 11, 2021 Posted August 11, 2021 (edited) 25 minutes ago, jaygon said: 1870 by Conrad Jegel entitled ” Sibille , the fortune telling gypsy mother.” The Jegel? It isn't a Sibilla. 25 minutes ago, jaygon said: I imagine that it might also be suitable to add the Bohemian family decks to the list. French : La Sybille des Salons Le Livre du Destin Le Petit Cartomancien Le Jeu du Destin Antique Le Petit Oracle des Dames The Oracle Belline German : Le Petit Lenormand Le Grand Jeu de Lenormand Sibille (Conrad Jegel) Austrian : Art Deco Fortune Telling Cards (52 cards) Zigeuner Wahrsageketen (36 cards) Biedermeier Aufschlagkarten (32 cards)* *Is there a variation of this last deck with 36 cards? Italian : La Vera Sibilla Sibilla Della Zingara/Sibilla Faustino Solesio IMisteri Sibilla Sibilla '800 La Magica Sibilla Sibilla Della Fortuna Sibilla Originale del 1890 12 minutes ago, Decan said: Concerning Germany don't forget the most important maybe: the Kipper! 😉 1 hour ago, Decan said: The Oracle Belline could be added to the French list, since it is a sibyl; aesthetically it looks different than the other ones but it is I think. I haven’t the exact definition of what a sibyl is though. A deck used for divination that isn’t Tarot? A Sibilla type deck has an image/images and a playing card inset. So not the Bohemian decks, Kipper, Jegel, etc. And why are the Italian Sibilla decks being listed individually? The Lenormands aren't. I'd just put "Italian Sibilla" and be done with it. Edited August 11, 2021 by katrinka
Decan Posted August 11, 2021 Posted August 11, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, jaygon said: I wasn’t sure whether or not to include the Kipper! I guess it comes back to the definition of a Sibilla deck : Is it a requirement for this type of deck to have (or to have originally had) the cartomancy insets? I’m not sure if Kipper cards ever had corresponding playing card insets. This is a question for specialists (I'm not)! The Oracle Belline hasn't playing card insets and the bohemian decks like the Zigeuner Wahrsageketen, Biedermeier Aufschlagkarten or the Art Deco Fortune Telling Cards haven't too. 29 minutes ago, jaygon said: *Is there a variation of this last deck with 36 cards? Yes, the Hungarian cigany kartya (sort of clone of the Zigeuner Wahrsageketen), no playing card insets too. Edited August 11, 2021 by Decan
Decan Posted August 11, 2021 Posted August 11, 2021 4 minutes ago, katrinka said: A Sibilla type deck has an image/images and a playing card inset. So not the Bohemian decks, Kipper, Jegel, etc. Ah, okay, so the Oracle Belline isn't part of this category.
katrinka Posted August 11, 2021 Posted August 11, 2021 7 minutes ago, Decan said: The Oracle Belline hasn't playing card insets and the bohemian deck like the Zigeuner Wahrsageketen, Biedermeier Aufschlagkarten or the Art Deco Fortune Telling Cards haven't too. Exactly. Is this intended to be a list of Sibilla type decks as stated upthread, or a list of everything that is not a Tarot? A list of every deck type ("Petit Lenormand") or a list of every single individual deck? What is the criteria here? It isn't clear from the list at all.
jaygon Posted August 11, 2021 Author Posted August 11, 2021 The lack of clarity may well stem from a limited understanding (my own) of what constitutes a Sibilla deck. I will amend the list to reflect agreed Sibilla decks only : French : La Sybille des Salons Le Livre du Destin Le Petit Cartomancien Le Jeu du Destin Antique Le Petit Oracle des Dames German : Le Petit Lenormand Le Grand Jeu de Lenormand Sibille (Conrad Jegel) Italian : La Vera Sibilla Sibilla Della Zingara/Sibilla Faustino Solesio IMisteri Sibilla Sibilla '800 La Magica Sibilla Sibilla Della Fortuna Sibilla Originale del 1890
jaygon Posted August 11, 2021 Author Posted August 11, 2021 @Decan regarding the Biedermeier Aufschlagkarten (32 cards) (which I accept is NOT a Sibilla) ; I wondered if there was a variation of this deck, same deck, same title but with 36 cards rather than 32 cards.
katrinka Posted August 11, 2021 Posted August 11, 2021 31 minutes ago, jaygon said: The lack of clarity may well stem from a limited understanding (my own) of what constitutes a Sibilla deck. I will amend the list to reflect agreed Sibilla decks only : French : La Sybille des Salons Le Livre du Destin Le Petit Cartomancien Le Jeu du Destin Antique Le Petit Oracle des Dames German : Le Petit Lenormand Le Grand Jeu de Lenormand Sibille (Conrad Jegel) Italian : La Vera Sibilla Sibilla Della Zingara/Sibilla Faustino Solesio IMisteri Sibilla Sibilla '800 La Magica Sibilla Sibilla Della Fortuna Sibilla Originale del 1890 If you're going to list individual Italian Sibilla decks, you'll need to do the same with Petit Lenormands. Good luck with that. 25 minutes ago, jaygon said: @Decan regarding the Biedermeier Aufschlagkarten (32 cards) (which I accept is NOT a Sibilla) ; I wondered if there was a variation of this deck, same deck, same title but with 36 cards rather than 32 cards. Zigeuner Wahrsagekarten.
gregory Posted August 11, 2021 Posted August 11, 2021 As a matter of interest - why do you want to create this list ?
jaygon Posted August 11, 2021 Author Posted August 11, 2021 I enjoy collecting and learning about the origins of the various decks. We all have our thing.
Decan Posted August 11, 2021 Posted August 11, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, jaygon said: @Decan regarding the Biedermeier Aufschlagkarten (32 cards) (which I accept is NOT a Sibilla) ; I wondered if there was a variation of this deck, same deck, same title but with 36 cards rather than 32 cards. Ah yes, I misunderstood your question, but Katrinka already answered you, the Zigeuner Wahrsagekarten (and since the Hungarian cigany kartya is a sort of clone of this latest, this one too). Your list could be complicated to elaborate IMO, because there are decks which are not Sibyls (no playing card insets) but called a Sibyl. I have one like that, the Sibyl of the Heart. Otherwise, I read in the past that the Sibilla Italiana could be an extension of the Bohemian cards (not Sibyl), so well... Edited August 11, 2021 by Decan
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