Jump to content

On the *need* for non-personal ethics


Dr_T
 Share

Recommended Posts

Anyone want to talk ethics? [surprising it a topic that causes many to start gnawing there own limbs off]

 

I’ve been looking at different codes-of-ethics on tarot sites and there appears to be very little consistency (or indeed actual ethics) 😯 I’m a philosopher and have an interest in professional ethics so keen to hear any forum members opinion on the below (or other) ethical topics.

 

* most so-called codes-of-ethics are just a list of codified rules to follow … not ethics

 

* there is no such thing as ‘personal ethics’ as this would be divorced of any external method of judgement and incapable of assessing right/wrong … it’s just pure subjectivism… but does that matter? Is judgement important?

 

* many ‘codes’ stress respect … without taking the time to discuss what respect means. Does every one get respect just because they re living humans? Why? Doesn’t respect have to be earned?

 

…and oh so many others.

 

just dipping my toe in to see if anyone else is interested in the topic 🙂

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very interesting topic, @Dr_T.   I might be interested in a discussion but before we get started, let's get on the same page.  As a philosopher, what is your definition of ethics?  You say 

2 hours ago, Dr_T said:

most so-called codes-of-ethics are just a list of codified rules to follow … not ethics

 

yet www.britannica.com disagrees: "The term ethics may refer to the philosophical study of the concepts of moral right and wrong and moral good and bad, to any philosophical theory of what is morally right and wrong or morally good and bad, and to any system or code of moral rules, principles, or values" (emphasis mine).

 

Ahead of learning what you actually mean by ethics I might briefly add that personal ethics, which you apparently disdain, is indeed a "philosophical theory of what is morally right and wrong or morally good and bad" and your somewhat startling conviction that 

2 hours ago, Dr_T said:

there is no such thing as ‘personal ethics’

perplexes me.

 

Further, your questions

2 hours ago, Dr_T said:

Does every one get respect just because they re living humans? Why? Doesn’t respect have to be earned?

are quite the ethical dilemmas themselves.  I can think of two examples off the top of my head where the answers are yes to the first and no to the second. 

 

The National Association of Social Workers Code of Ethics is built on six core values and principles, of which the third is 

          Value: Dignity and Worth of the Person

          Ethical Principle: Social workers respect the inherent dignity and worth of the person.

 

The Unitarian Universalist Association affirms and promotes seven Principles, which are held as strong values and moral guides. The first of these is "The inherent worth and dignity of every person".

 

I eagerly await your response!

 

 

 

Edited by Grandma
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ooh ooh PS - The American Philosophical Society itself has a Code of Ethics.  Is this an exception to your assertion that

2 hours ago, Dr_T said:

most so-called codes-of-ethics are just a list of codified rules to follow … not ethics

 

or do the philosophers not understand what ethics are?

 

@Dr_T I don't mean to be snarky and I don't mean to be mean.  I mean to engage in spirited, passionate intellectual debate.  Ready, set, go!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi @Grandma,

 

there is a difference between moral (as referenced to nature of right and wrong) and ethics (on an applied level)

 

you can of course have moral rules; I.e. utilitarianism follows the rule ‘do that which promotes the most x’ where x is some form of the good. Similarly virtue ethics has a moral theory around the nature of a good person.  This is quite different from a codified list (As many so called codes of ethics are). Respect Others, for example, is just a rule unless backed by ethical reasoning.

 

many philosophers dismiss the claim of personal ethics on the grounds there is no universal standard of right/wrong. Consider I invent a card game to which only I know the rules. You witness me playing and I claim to win. How can this be assessed? How can anyone tell I accurately apply or follow the same rules each time I play.the same with persona; ethics; we only have the word of the individual that they have abided by there personal ethics (and we know how fickle bias can be).

 

you can of course choose on a personal level which ‘rules’ from externally determined ethical codes you will follow …

 

the social workers code is based on the notion of respect derived from Kant (that all persons are ends in themselves - and have inherent worth) … doesn’t make the answer a yes though. Many disagree with this notion. Singer for example believes worth resides in sentience. Others deny the existence of inherent worth.

 

We need to know both the reasoning and the theory to understand what is meant… both by the term ‘respect’ and in terms of who deserves it.

 

….only scrapes the surface but hopefully expands on what you asked.

 

thanks

 

Dr.T

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lol, Fair call on APA… I did say most 🙂 …I’m not getting all absolutist 

 

the APA code of ethics is a far different beast than the type of codifies list you find on most sites. It’s certainly no a list of codifies rules. 
 

…and probably ‘not entirely’ as philosophers are endlessly arguing about ethics 🙂

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have never, ever posted a code of ethics, nor do I intend to. The closest I came to doing that was this blog post explaining why I don't like them:

https://fennario.wordpress.com/2017/06/28/on-ethics/


I may be wrong, but fortunetelling codes of ethics seem to be a fairly recent phenomenon. I can't quite imagine Mlle. Lenormand or Madame Thebes displaying such a thing. And I don't care to be a part of contemporary new age reading.

Edited by katrinka
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@katrinka  Thanks 🙂 Barbara Moore has some similar points https://www.llewellyn.com/blog/2015/06/your-tarot-ethics/

 

I don’t entirely agree that individual and professional ethics are the same; does a priest and a bartender have the same onus of confidentiality? Certain occupation do seem to infer additional responsibilities.

 

Entirely agree about individuals not posting codes of ethics (especially if they are not experts in the field). Not really a new phenomenon though, there are some incredibly old ones. Does however seem to have become something of a buzz of late…

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can someone explain this "Tarot Code of Ethics" to me?

 

I do have personal ideas about what I would or wouldn't feel comfortable about, but I wouldn't expect everyone to abide by the same ones. All I can do is offer my own reasoning as to why I think that way but I can't force people to adhere to it. At the end of the day, I think there are bigger issues in the world that I find a lot more worrying.

 

The only exception are behaviours that are just obviously scammy or unprofessional, like giving people fake readings and the like.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

marinaoracles
1 hour ago, katrinka said:

I have never, ever posted a code of ethics, nor do I intend to. The closest I came to doing that was this blog post explaining why I don't like them:

https://fennario.wordpress.com/2017/06/28/on-ethics/


I may be wrong, but fortunetelling codes of ethics seem to be a fairly recent phenomenon. I can't quite imagine Mlle. Lenormand or Madame Thebes displaying such a thing. And I don't care to be a part of contemporary new age reading.

 

I agree with @katrinka here. I never posted any "reader ethics" because I would like to believe I am (or strive to be) guided by general ethics in my interactions and endeavours. I'll not aid in things that condone violence, racism, xenophobia, sexism etc. I'll not help rapists, stalkers, pedophiles, neo-nazis, violent criminals, bunny boilers, people who kick dogs, drown kittens or beat their families etc. Of course, usually these people are not upfront about these aspects of their lives, but if I find out there is any of these involved, I'll deny service. Also, I don't read for minors.

 

I do not judge people's peccadilloes though (I am a psychology undergraduate after all). If someone comes desperate for a reading on their ex, I will do it. But if they come desperate for a reading on their ex for the 5th time in a month, I will sit down and have an honest conversation. Not because I find it unethical to read on the subject itself, but because I'm not really helping this person anymore and I don't like to encourage this sort of obsession. In my experience though, obsessed people don't stick to readers who don't tell them what they want to hear...

 

I am, however, VERY careful to separate my activities as a card reader and as a psychology student (especially because the Code of Ethics in Psychology here in Brazil is very strict about what the things one can do as a psychologist, and reading cards is NOT on of them). If someone comes for a reading hoping they will get therapy, I right away clarify that my oracle practices are NOT psychology and that I do not base them on any psychological techniques. They are fortune-telling, period. If you want something backed up by psychological theories and sciences, then it's not my cards that you want and I can refer you to licensed professionals (as I am not one yet).

Edited by marinaoracles
typo <3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, dust said:

Can someone explain this "Tarot Code of Ethics" to me?

 

I do have personal ideas about what I would or wouldn't feel comfortable about, but I wouldn't expect everyone to abide by the same ones. All I can do is offer my own reasoning as to why I think that way but I can't force people to adhere to it. At the end of the day, I think there are bigger issues in the world that I find a lot more worrying.

 


Soons as you label it Ethics you are making a statement about The Good; what is right and what is wrong. … it is therefore more universal in nature 

 

differs from a simple code ; I will or won’t do this…. (Because it would make you uncomfortable or whatever). I think this approach is fine as it just what you personally will/won’t do without going down the path of labelling the actions as right or wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, marinaoracles said:

 

I am agree with @katrinka here. I never posted any "reader ethics" because I would like to believe I am (or strive to be) guided by general ethics in my interactions and endeavours.


If you follow a specific set of ‘general’ ethics…

…and apply those ‘general’ ethics within your reading practice…

 

isn’t that having a set of ethics for Tarot reading but not being transparent about them?
 

Hmmm, that sounds harsh, not being rude 😯 By the comment I just mean a set of ethics is in play but I don’t know what they are because I don’t know what set of ‘general’ ethics you adhere to…

 

guess it would never matter except if we hit a scenario where they came into play? …but if we did???

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, Dr_T said:

@katrinka  Thanks 🙂 Barbara Moore has some similar points https://www.llewellyn.com/blog/2015/06/your-tarot-ethics/

 

That's kind of surprising. In a good way.
People at Llewellyn tend to follow all the trends. It's good to see someone bucking this one and speaking up about it.
 

58 minutes ago, Dr_T said:

I don’t entirely agree that individual and professional ethics are the same; does a priest and a bartender have the same onus of confidentiality? 


In a professional sense, no. A bartender is not bound by whatever requires a priest to hold his mud, or a doctor's Hippocratic Oath. If you confide in him and he puts your business on blast, you have no legal recourse. And some do that.

Others, however, don't, It's because they're decent people and they have ethics. He doesn't need the threat of losing his job or getting sued to make him behave. It's called "not being an ***hole."
 

58 minutes ago, Dr_T said:

Entirely agree about individuals not posting codes of ethics (especially if they are not experts in the field). Not really a new phenomenon though, there are some incredibly old ones. Does however seem to have become something of a buzz of late…


What's the earliest you've seen, and where? I'm honestly curious...

I really only started seeing them after the internet gained traction. Before that, people just hung out a sign or put an ad in the back of a magazine. I never saw mention of a "code of ethics." 


One of the first I saw was at a sham certification website. The certifications were ranked (Apprentice, Professional, and so on up to "Certified Tarot Grand Master" or somesuch nonsense, at a cost of $50-$100 per rank.) At one point, participants had to verify that they’d qualified students for at least 25 certification ranks, so it was a pyramid scheme. And one of the requirements for students was to write a code of ethics. 

 

The site was racist, too, and dripping with ethnic slurs.

Seeing THAT told me in no uncertain terms what a "code of ethics" amounts to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Dr_T said:

If you follow a specific set of ‘general’ ethics…

…and apply those ‘general’ ethics within your reading practice…

 

isn’t that having a set of ethics for Tarot reading but not being transparent about them?
 

Hmmm, that sounds harsh, not being rude 😯 By the comment I just mean a set of ethics is in play but I don’t know what they are because I don’t know what set of ‘general’ ethics you adhere to…

 

Allow me to butt in for a second.
You don't know what ethics anyone adheres to, if any, even if they DO post a code of ethics. Maybe especially if they post one. See my last post here.
It's like people who are always saying "I'm honest, I'm honest." If they do that, it's a pretty good indication that they aren't.

 

Like The Bard said, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, katrinka said:

What's the earliest you've seen, and where? I'm honestly curious...


I’ll have to dig through some of my texts. Some of the Cartomancy ones go way back. Will see what I can dig up (don’t have the books with me unfortunately)

 

but, unfortunately, I agree… far too many codes of ethics are just as you describe; a sham, or part of some course to extract a few more $, or exist just because it’s something you ‘have’ to have. Sigh. Despite all that I think there’s a place for them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, katrinka said:

You don't know what ethics anyone adheres to, if any, even if they DO post a code of ethics. Maybe especially if they post one. See my last post here.
It's like people who are always saying "I'm honest, I'm honest." If they do that, it's a pretty good indication that they aren't.


True. But if they do post one it’s something to hold them accountable against…

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's not a lot of accountability in this business, though, whether they've posted a code of ethics or not.
And really, not having a code of ethics posted doesn't mean you can't call someone out, seek a refund, or give them bad word of mouth if they do you dirty. 

It's different if they work for a service of some kind. If they violate the company policy, you have some recourse. But a code of ethics has no teeth. It's window dressing, at best.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, katrinka said:

It's different if they work for a service of some kind. If they violate the company policy, you have some recourse. But a code of ethics has no teeth. It's window dressing, at best.


guess it depends where you are from? Breach of ethics will (here) usually see you disbarred from a professional association which will impact your career… so has quite an impact for lawyers, accountants, doctors, unions, educators, -professional sports players etc.

 

But that only works where belonging to the association has major benefits.

 

in general though I think business care more if you call them out and can point to a breach of ethics than if you just call them out? If they’ve done the window dressing then they probably (?) care that it looks good…

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Dr_T said:


guess it depends where you are from?

 

I think that sums up my initial reaction to this whole discussion. I am Scandinavian and if I were to address this topic among fellow readers here, I don't think it would generate friction or even much interest at all, to be perfectly honest!. I remember many years ago when I started socializing on international tarot forums. That was when I first heard people talk about the need for having disclaimers, as to not get sued, and to be clear about your "ethics" or "code of conduct". I do remember thinking that it felt peculiar. Here, people typically don´t sue others on matters like these. The culture is different. And even though many Swedes are christian on the paper.. very few are active participants in any religion and as such don't discuss 'morals' very often. 

 

I know that Benebell Wen once made a video about her thoughts on this topic. She basically said that she didn't think it was right to use the phrase "for ethical reasons" when you turn a client down, because that implies that you are morally superior than them. This was particularly in regards to readings that revolve around health issues. She expressed that she feels it is perfectly fine to reject certain type of requests, but that its best to not make it about ethics or morals. She did also address the legal situation, based on where she herself is located. Again, all this will differ depending on where you are from/at. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, katrinka said:

 

That's kind of surprising. In a good way.
People at Llewellyn tend to follow all the trends. It's good to see someone bucking this one and speaking up about it.

 

Barbara will ALWAYS do her own thing, wherever she is. She is an ultra good egg.

 

Morals are not the same as ethics.

 

“Ethics” leans towards decisions based upon individual character, and the more subjective understanding of right and wrong by individuals; “morals” emphasises the widely-shared communal or societal norms about right and wrong.

 

Someone doesn't need to be moral to be ethical. Someone without a moral compass may follows "ethical codes" to be in good standing with society. On the other hand, someone can violate ethics all the time because they believe something is morally right. 

 

https://www.dictionary.com/e/moral-vs-ethical/

 

 

So someone here posting some code of ethics is basing that upon their own personal understanding of right and wrong. IF I were to post a list of my reading ethics (nothing would induce me) I would have bits in with which I KNOW Katrinka here, for one, will profoundly disagree - and she and I are both - in my view - moral individuals. But while there are - for instance - a few individuals that my personal ethics would allow me to murder for the good of society (in my view) - morally, I couldn't do it. And there are things like Omerta - fine by the ethics of the mafia, but... and the right of a spouse not to have to testify against their partner - I think that's morally just awful - but ethically it hold sup in law even. There IS a difference.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most Tarot codes of ethics strike me as being heavily influenced by the new age and self help industries, name checking empowerment, non-judgement, personal boundaries, inner guidance, etcetera. This is a big turn off for me.

 

I'm also not sure we need to refer to a breach of code to prove that a Tarot reader gossiping about their clients' problems or flogging spells to counteract invented curses is a shitehawk.

 

Personally, my ethical processes are based on the kind of person I want to be and the kind of effect I want to have on the world around me. Now, this could be seen as entirely subjective, based on idiosyncratic cultural, psychological, and possibly even biological complexes, but since I am to some extent a religious person, it is more true to say that my ethics and morality, or ethical and moral urges, from my perspective at least, are at core based on metaphysical principles (or assumptions, if you prefer), IE. some variation of natural law. 

 

Of course, I often fail miserably in my attempt to live an ethical and moral life and I am certainly no moral philosopher!

 

Though, if I did ever decide to post a code of ethics, I would find my template in that Tarot reader who said they would no longer accept sex as payment for readings unless they really, really fancied the client.

 

Anyway, This thread is an interesting take on a dull topic. Thanks be to the starter.

 

24 minutes ago, gregory said:

And there are things like Omerta - fine by the ethics of the mafia, but... and the right of a spouse not to have to testify against their partner - I think that's morally just awful - but ethically it hold sup in law even. There IS a difference.

 

Yes, but each ethical example you give is based on a moral principle at its core, right?

Edited by devin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think Omerta holds up under any moral code. I don't think there is any MORAL principle that says it's OK to keep quiet about a murder if a member of your club did it. I don't personally think it's morally OK for a wife not to have to tell on her child-abusing rapist husband either. She should have to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, gregory said:

Someone doesn't need to be moral to be ethical. Someone without a moral compass may follows "ethical codes" to be in good standing with society. On the other hand, someone can violate ethics all the time because they believe something is morally right. 


‘yes it’s true you could fake moral character by strictly following ethical codes thus creating the appearance of morality. But that person is not ethical they are simply good at following rules. 
 

But moral theory is an explanation of the good and (assuming a valid theory) it’s north possible for someone to act for the good/right and to act unethically.  They might act against a set of codified rules, but that is all.

 

a (so called) ethical code and ethics are not the same thing.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, devin said:

Anyway, This thread is an interesting take on a dull topic. Thanks be to the starter.


thank you 🙂

 

49 minutes ago, devin said:

Yes, but each ethical example you give is based on a moral principle at its core, right?


yes!! There has to be some theory of ‘the good’ upon which the code are based otherwise they are just baseless rules

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The terms morality and ethics get used interchangeably …  and thus the waters get all murky.

 

perhaps a better way to think of it is in terms of 3 levels of ethics meta- normative- & applied-

 

meta-ethics is the very nature of ethical properties. what is TheGood?

 

normative-ethics are the theories I.e. Kantian rights, Utilitarianism, VirtueEthics,Egoism etc

 

appied-ethics is the theories put into action to answer the question ‘what ought I do in this situation’

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Dr_T said:

Breach of ethics will (here) usually see you disbarred from a professional association which will impact your career…

 

I was talking about fortunetellers. 😐

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.

Our Forum host is raising their prices, so every little bit helps!

 

Guests

Thank you for paying us a visit!

Please consider joining and the Google Ads will vanish.

 

Registered Members

The only ads you will see are those run by your fellow readers.

Please consider turning off AdBlock so their contribution isn't in vain!