Barleywine's Thoth 101 Beginner Class

[Barleywine]

On 7/8/2019 at 8:45 PM, TheFeeLion said:

@Barleywine  I thought Ain Soph was "Without Limit"? Or am I getting mixed up? Is this why you chose "Light" as your descriptor in your summary of the Naples Arrangement? Because it's a something without form but is a bit easier to wrap our head around among other things? 

 

Here's my understanding of the 0-10 thing (please correct me if I'm wrong) 

 

0 = limitless possibly but without form. Both everything and nothing. 

 

First set of three:

1 = the Point. Position. Something out of nothing/everything. Like when trying to triangulate you need a starting point. Still a lot of potential but now there is more form. 

2 = the Line. As yet no measure of length like the question 'how long is a piece of string?' Gives the Point more form but doesn't limit capabilities/possibilities

3 = the Surface or Plane. Gives more form and solidity to the previous two. 2D. Start to see that each number contains the ones before it plus some of its own extraness (??) 

 

*each time we come to a new number a new Point is added. Each new point give new form to the ones before. 

 

Second set of three:

4 = the Solid. Matter. Gives the previous Points depth and even more solidity. 3D.

5 = Motion. Time. The Solid now has a place in time as well as space. 

6 = Self-awareness. Now the Solid has an awareness of self as well as a position in time and space. Capable of experience. 

 

Third set of three:

7 = Being. The experience (?)

8 = Thought or Intellection. (I like @Starlight's Memory addition here) 

9 = Bliss. "the pleasure experienced by Being in the course of events". "One must explore the possibilities of imperfection on the part of Perfection in order to be conscious of those possibilities and enjoy them". 

 

10 = Reality/Knowledge

The Line is the Point in extension, creating two poles; since there is distance between them, the Line has length but no other dimension. Placing a third point to one side and connecting all three creates the triangular Plane.

 

The three veils are Ain (Nothing), Ain Soph (the Boundless or Limitless) and Ain Soph Aur (the Boundless or Limitless Light). As I understand it, the origins of manifestation lie in the Ain Soph Aur, which is the least rarefied of the three and, as the saying goes, "it's all downhill from there." I get the sense that the Point "coalesces" out of that spiritual Light. (Later in the BoT, Crowley said "One may now proceed to imagine any point in this "light", to select it for observation; the fact of doing so makes it Positive.")

 

Crowley was clear that everything above the Abyss (that means the first three sephiroth) is entirely without form or substance, representing more an abstract mental state or Creative Idea than an observable reality. (I may not have that entirely right but the principle is valid.)

 

I never had much use for the Hindu attributions, preferring Crowley's "location on the Tree" comments for the 7, 8 and 9.

 

We will go over all of this in some detail as we get into the Minor Arcana.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Barleywine

[Starlight]

On 7/8/2019 at 12:49 AM, Barleywine said:

You've certainly grasped the essence of it.

Thankyou, @Barleywine. Without your knowledge and explanations, this would be *a lot* harder.

[TheFeeLion]

On 7/9/2019 at 1:46 PM, Barleywine said:

We will go over all of this in some detail as we get into the Minor Arcana.

Thanks for that @Barleywine 😁 I'd forgotten about the other two Ain!

 

I agree with @Starlight, your explanations are making this much more manageable! 

[KaiNO]

@Barleywine, this question might possibly derail the thread, sorry if it does, but I recently bought the deck "The Kingdom Within Tarot".

 

The system followed there is based upon that presented in the “Restored Tree of Life”, as presented by Charles Stansfield Jones, an initiate of Aleister Crowley. This material can be found in “Q.B.L” (also known as “The Bride’s Reception”), and “The Egyptian Revival” (or “The Ever-Coming Son in The Light of the Tarot”).

 

My question is: Should one stay far away from the "Restored Tree of Life" before one master the "Tree of Life"? (Is it an advantage or disadvantage to look at the "Restored Tree of Life" at the same time as learning the "Tree of Life"?)

[Barleywine]

4 hours ago, KaiNO said:

@Barleywine, this question might possibly derail the thread, sorry if it does, but I recently bought the deck "The Kingdom Within Tarot".

 

The system followed there is based upon that presented in the “Restored Tree of Life”, as presented by Charles Stansfield Jones, an initiate of Aleister Crowley. This material can be found in “Q.B.L” (also known as “The Bride’s Reception”), and “The Egyptian Revival” (or “The Ever-Coming Son in The Light of the Tarot”).

 

My question is: Should one stay far away from the "Restored Tree of Life" before one master the "Tree of Life"? (Is it an advantage or disadvantage to look at the "Restored Tree of Life" at the same time as learning the "Tree of Life"?)

Different authors have tried to "restore" the Tree of Life; Frater Achad (Jones), William Gray (in The Talking Tree) and Eden Gray (in The Complete Guide to the Tarot) are three. Most authorities I've read stay with the Kircher Tree, which is the de facto "standard." I've never been entirely happy with the Golden Dawn's assignment of the trumps to the paths of the Tree, and have made my own experiments with it, but I will stay away from that as well as from the other restorations. The Kircher Tree will work just fine for our purposes.

[fire cat pickles]

@Barleywine, I've searched online for the Kircher, and to be honest I'm having trouble finding a version that is legible. Do you have decent version that is readable that you can post here or on your blog (and link), please?

[Barleywine]

9 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said:

@Barleywine, I've searched online for the Kircher, and to be honest I'm having trouble finding a version that is legible. Do you have decent version that is readable that you can post here or on your blog (and link), please?

I'll see what I can find. I've been down that road too.

[Barleywine]

This is the best I can find. It's titled "The Sephirothic Tree of the Later Kabbalists" and "translated from Kircher's Aedipus Aegyptiacus." It appears to be the same one Pat Zalewski used in the book Kabbalah of the Golden Dawn." The names of the sephiroth aren't identical to our modern ones but close enough, and the structure is identical.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n7pzhuz3qohutzx/Kircher Tree.jpg?raw=1

Edited July 12, 2019 by Barleywine

[Barleywine]

The Book of Thoth, Part One, Sub-part II, The Tarot and the Holy Qabalah: The Naples Arrangement

 

For some unknown reason, Crowley put the short descriptions of the elements of the Naples Arrangement somewhere other than under the heading "The Naples Arrangement." In order to talk about it intelligently, I'm bringing it forward.

 

THE NAPLES ARRANGEMENT

 

61=0.

61 +146=0 as Undefined (Space).

61 +146+207=0 as basis of Possible Vibration.

1. The Point: Positive yet indefinable,

2. Distinguishable from I other.

3. Defined by relation to 2 others.

 

The Abyss-between Ideal and Actual.

 

4. The Point: Defined by 3 co-ordinates: Matter.

5. Motion (time)---He', the Womb; for only through Motion and in Time can events occur.

6. The Point: now self-conscious, because able to define itself in terms of above.

7. The Point's Idea of Bliss (Ananda).

8. The Point's idea of Thought (Chit).

9. The Point's idea of Being (Sat).

10. Itself fulfilled in its complement, as determined by 7, 8 and 9.

 

For all practical purposes, this is Crowley's Qabalistic number theory expressed in Tree of Life terms. At one point long ago, I puzzled out how he arrived at the numbers for the three Veils of Negativity, but I can't seem to duplicate the feat. It definitely derives from gematria, but - unless one of you has successfully worked it out - I'll have to tackle it again. Understanding it isn't really critical to our study of the cards except as it may apply to the Fool.

 

The rest of the content in this section elaborates on the brief descriptions at some length. Getting a feel for his train of thought is important for an understanding of how the potency and purity of the energy in the Minor Arcana become constrained (and to some extent corrupted)  as the elemental force descends the Tree of Life and becomes increasingly bound to Matter.  His use of the Vedic concepts of Bliss, Thought and Being becomes a little clearer by thinking of them as "the Point's idea" of these qualities, but it's still difficult to square them with his later assertions that the Seven and Eight are weakened and unbalanced by being "low on the Tree and off the Middle Pillar." But we will get there in due time. It would probably be a good idea to have some general discussion of these thoughts before we do.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Barleywine

[KaiNO]

1 hour ago, Barleywine said:

At one point long ago, I puzzled out how he arrived at the numbers for the three Veils of Negativity, but I can't seem to duplicate the feat. It definitely derives from gematria, but - unless one of you has successfully worked it out

 

1. Ain: ( Hebrew אין )
Aleph(1)
Yod(10)
Nun(50)
= 61

 

2. Ain Soph: ( Hebrew אין   סוף)  
Soph:
Samekh(60)
Vaw(6)
Phe(80) (Or: Phe Sophith, to indicate end of word)
= 146

 

3. Ain Soph Aur: ( Hebrew אין   סוף   אור)
Aur:
Aleph(1)
Vaw(6)
Reysh(200)
= 207

[Barleywine]

11 minutes ago, KaiNO said:

 

1. Ain: ( Hebrew אין )
Aleph(1)
Yod(10)
Nun(50)
= 61

 

2. Ain Soph: ( Hebrew אין   סוף)  
Soph:
Samekh(60)
Vaw(6)
Phe(80) (Or: Phe Sophith, to indicate end of word)
= 146

 

3. Ain Soph Aur: ( Hebrew אין   סוף   אור)
Aur:
Aleph(1)
Vaw(6)
Reysh(200)
= 207

Thanks! That's how I remember it.

[Starlight]

On 7/13/2019 at 7:37 PM, Barleywine said:

His use of the Vedic concepts of Bliss, Thought and Being becomes a little clearer by thinking of them as "the Point's idea" of these qualities, but it's still difficult to square them with his later assertions that the Seven and Eight are weakened and unbalanced by being "low on the Tree and off the Middle Pillar." But we will get there in due time. It would probably be a good idea to have some general discussion of these thoughts before we do.

I feel completely inadequate and woefully out of my depth when it comes to having an intelligent discussion about the Thoth system. At this point the only thing I can contribute is that Crowley's story about the 7, 8 and 9 reminds me of something I read in Neal Donald Walsh's Conversations with God about how God (Creator/Source) existed (perhaps akin to the 7 - bliss?) and then comprehended that it existed (8 - thought) and then realised that in order to know and understand its potential it would have to Become (9) - and so the One divided into smaller parts until we have everyone and everything that exists today in our known universe.

 

Of course, that story could also relate to 0, 1 and 2... and so on into 7, 8, 9.

 

I suppose that's why there's different levels on the tree of life. Because you spiral through stages that are almost similar but not alike?

 

ETA: I am trying to correlate what I know and have experienced with what I think I'm understanding from Crowley's text...

Edited July 14, 2019 by Starlight

[Barleywine]

20 hours ago, Starlight said:

I feel completely inadequate and woefully out of my depth when it comes to having an intelligent discussion about the Thoth system. At this point the only thing I can contribute is that Crowley's story about the 7, 8 and 9 reminds me of something I read in Neal Donald Walsh's Conversations with God about how God (Creator/Source) existed (perhaps akin to the 7 - bliss?) and then comprehended that it existed (8 - thought) and then realised that in order to know and understand its potential it would have to Become (9) - and so the One divided into smaller parts until we have everyone and everything that exists today in our known universe.

 

Of course, that story could also relate to 0, 1 and 2... and so on into 7, 8, 9.

 

I suppose that's why there's different levels on the tree of life. Because you spiral through stages that are almost similar but not alike?

 

ETA: I am trying to correlate what I know and have experienced with what I think I'm understanding from Crowley's text...

The Tree of Life can be envisioned as a projection of the Mind of God into the manifest Universe in ten emanations that gather substance to themselves the way a snowball acquires mass as it rolls downhill. That's a bit too simplistic but it gets the idea across; the main difference is that the snowball gains speed while the spiritual energy slows and becomes more ponderous as it descends. The top three spheres on the Tree are entirely abstract and inaccessible to normal comprehension; the next three are transitional, conveying the "above" to the "below" in slightly more scrutable terms; the three following provide the "working model" for physical reality and the last sphere - "Kingdom" - represents the world as we know it. The top three spheres form a triangle pointing upward toward Spirit, while the next six form two downward-pointing triangles penetrating deeper into Matter, and the last one is appended to the bottom of the structure. The four "worlds" thus depicted are, respectively, Archetypal (pure ideas); Creative (mental patterns); Formative (processes of actualization) and Material (physical sensation). The vast majority of people who aren't philosophers or mystics live entirely in the realm of the senses (represented by the tarot Tens).

Edited July 15, 2019 by Barleywine

[Starlight]

11 hours ago, Barleywine said:

The Tree of Life can be envisioned as a projection of the Mind of God into the manifest Universe in ten emanations that gather substance to themselves the way a snowball acquires mass as it rolls downhill.

I get it! (@Barleywine, you are really explaining this so well. Thank you!)

 

The 10s (Kingdom?) are heavier and slower as they're the most fully present in our physical reality, while 0 and 1 and 2 are beyond our ability to comprehend. (The 0, 1 and 2 are the top three spheres, is that right? Or is it the 1, 2 and 3?)

 

I also see what you mean by not necessarily having to believe what Crowley believed about how the Universe is set up; just knowing what he believed so we can understand the Thoth system. 🙂

 

Is there any Platonic thought in this? The shadows on the walls of a cave - the world of the abstract. (I'm just looking for hooks to hang knowledge on.)

[Barleywine]

1 hour ago, Starlight said:

I get it! (@Barleywine, you are really explaining this so well. Thank you!)

 

The 10s (Kingdom?) are heavier and slower as they're the most fully present in our physical reality, while 0 and 1 and 2 are beyond our ability to comprehend. (The 0, 1 and 2 are the top three spheres, is that right? Or is it the 1, 2 and 3?)

 

I also see what you mean by not necessarily having to believe what Crowley believed about how the Universe is set up; just knowing what he believed so we can understand the Thoth system. 🙂

 

Is there any Platonic thought in this? The shadows on the walls of a cave - the world of the abstract. (I'm just looking for hooks to hang knowledge on.)

Zero relates to the "Veils of Negative Existence;" the first three sepiroth are One (Kether, the Crown), Two (Chokma, Wisdom) and Three (Binah, Understanding). I think all of the 19th Century occultists were influenced by Neoplatonist thought, but I can't point to any specifics. The idea with the Tens is that the original elemental force that was so abundant in the Aces has reached its last gasp, and is about to cede the field to the Ace of the next suit. "Kingdom" is the title of the tenth sephiroth, Malkuth, and each element has a piece of it.

[TheFeeLion]

Hmmm this is how I think it's working out in my head... 

 

On 7/15/2019 at 2:26 AM, Starlight said:

At this point the only thing I can contribute is that Crowley's story about the 7, 8 and 9 reminds me of something I read in Neal Donald Walsh's Conversations with God about how God (Creator/Source) existed (perhaps akin to the 7 - bliss?) and then comprehended that it existed (8 - thought) and then realised that in order to know and understand its potential it would have to Become (9) - and so the One divided into smaller parts until we have everyone and everything that exists today in our known universe.

I like this, it's kinda how I was thinking too. I'll add some extra thoughts though 

 

10 - is like the 0 of the next phase in the energy's evolution

 

The god-being has realised its existence (7, 8, 9)and now wants to create something new (10 and 0). Once god-being decides what to create they start (1-5). New creation become conscious (6) realises its existence (7-9) and goes through the same motions as its predecessor with progeny of its own. 

 

So the way I understand it is the energy moves ever downward becoming more substantial as it goes;

 

Pure source 0

Fire 1-10

Water 1-10

Air 1-10

Earth 1-10

 

Once reaching the bottom the only place it can go from here is up, so it ascends to begin the cycle again. I think that's why the Swords suit can seem so negative; it's nearly finished it's descent and is reaching rock bottom. Once it gets to Pents it starts to get excited again because it gets to ascend and do this all over again. 

[Starlight]

8 hours ago, Barleywine said:

The idea with the Tens is that the original elemental force that was so abundant in the Aces has reached its last gasp, and is about to cede the field to the Ace of the next suit.

 

5 hours ago, TheFeeLion said:

So the way I understand it is the energy moves ever downward becoming more substantial as it goes;

 

Pure source 0

Fire 1-10

Water 1-10

Air 1-10

Earth 1-10

Oh! I'm so glad the descent was made clear. I thought all the suits were descending at the same time! So Fire is considered less substantial than Water, in that case? And Earth is akin to "flesh"? Full incarnation of a human? (Cos we are talking only about humans, right? Querents and Tarot users are human. Or is the Thoth system more than just Tarot?)

Edited July 16, 2019 by Starlight

[Barleywine]

4 hours ago, Starlight said:

 

Oh! I'm so glad the descent was made clear. I thought all the suits were descending at the same time! So Fire is considered less substantial than Water, in that case? And Earth is akin to "flesh"? Full incarnation of a human? (Cos we are talking only about humans, right? Querents and Tarot users are human. Or is the Thoth system more than just Tarot?)

In practical terms, they are; otherwise our world would be populated with gnomes (Earth), undines (Water), sylphs (Air) and salamanders (Fire), which are unalloyed expressions of the elemental energies.  In theoretical terms, the qabalists split the Tree into four increasingly concrete "worlds." The Archetypal world is related to Fire, the most subtle of the elements; the Creative world is associated with Water, for what Paul Foster Case called "the fluid plasticity of the cosmic mind-stuff;" the Formative world, which gives the blueprint and motive force behind physical reality, is connected with Air; and the Material world of Earth clothes that mental architecture with substance, which is really a mixture of the other three elements. The Tree of Life represents the "Cosmic Man" (Adam Kadmon), of which we are the microrcosmic version, so the tarot is the four-fold expression of that idea, but - like the Tree itself - it is also inclusive and flexible  enough to portray all manner of being. The Golden Dawn used the tarot as the portal to initiation into the Western Mystery Tradition, so its primary purpose was to elevate the human consciousness.

[Barleywine]

10 hours ago, TheFeeLion said:

Hmmm this is how I think it's working out in my head... 

 

I like this, it's kinda how I was thinking too. I'll add some extra thoughts though 

 

10 - is like the 0 of the next phase in the energy's evolution

 

The god-being has realised its existence (7, 8, 9)and now wants to create something new (10 and 0). Once god-being decides what to create they start (1-5). New creation become conscious (6) realises its existence (7-9) and goes through the same motions as its predecessor with progeny of its own. 

 

So the way I understand it is the energy moves ever downward becoming more substantial as it goes;

 

Pure source 0

Fire 1-10

Water 1-10

Air 1-10

Earth 1-10

 

Once reaching the bottom the only place it can go from here is up, so it ascends to begin the cycle again. I think that's why the Swords suit can seem so negative; it's nearly finished it's descent and is reaching rock bottom. Once it gets to Pents it starts to get excited again because it gets to ascend and do this all over again. 

Yes, I agree with Alejandro Jodorowsky (although I came to the conclusion independently) that the Ten of each suit gives way to the Ace of the next suit (10 = 1+0 = 1), not that of the same suit. So in essence the progression of the suits in Tree of Life terms is a descending spiral or staircase rather than a circle. A circle would mean that we are just repeating ourselves by going over the same ground. The Pentacles are succeeded by the Wands, but on what I consider a "higher arc;" in other words, the new starting point has ideally been elevated.

[Starlight]

So, the four suits are the four "worlds", and there are also, incidentally, four levels on the tree - 1,2,3 and 4,5,6 and 7,8,9, and 10 at the bottom. But the four worlds and four levels do not have any other correlation. (Or do they?)

 

25 minutes ago, Barleywine said:

In practical terms, they are; otherwise our world would be populated with gnomes (Earth), undines (Water), sylphs (Air) and salamanders (Fire), which are unalloyed expressions of the elemental energies. 

Ahem. Ok! We're heading into more fantasy realms, then.

 

25 minutes ago, Barleywine said:

The Archetypal world is related to Fire, the most subtle of the elements

Can you explain what that means in terms of the human make-up, @Barleywine? What does it correspond to in more concrete terms? In the RWS Fire is passion or spirituality. How did Crowley see it?

 

25 minutes ago, Barleywine said:

The Tree of Life represents the "Cosmic Man" (Adam Kadmon), of which we are the microrcosmic version,

Does that mean the Tree of Life maps human energy fields - e.g. physical body, emotional, mental and etheric?

 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Starlight
Typo

[Starlight]

11 hours ago, TheFeeLion said:

I think that's why the Swords suit can seem so negative; it's nearly finished it's descent and is reaching rock bottom

Interesting! You're right. The further you travel into the swords, the bleaker it gets. I never really thought about that before. But as a descent it makes sense.

[Barleywine]

7 minutes ago, Starlight said:

So, the four suits are the four "worlds", and there are also, incidentally, four levels on the tree - 1,2,3 and 4,5,6 and 7,8,9, and 10 at the bottom. But the four worlds and four levels do not have any other correlation. (Or do they?)

 

Ahem. Ok! We're heading into more fantasy realms, then.

 

Can you explain what that means in terms of the human make-up, @Barleywine? What does it correspond to in more concrete terms? In the RWS Fire is passion or spirituality. How did Crowley see it?

 

Does that mean the Tree of Life maps human energy fields - e.g. physical body, emotional, mental and etheric?

 

The interrelationship of the four qabalistic worlds is a vast, complex and technical topic; I could point you at some reading on the subject, but it's far beyond out purpose here.

 

It's not the realm of fantasy, it's the Astral Plane.

 

The letter Shin in Hebrew meant both Fire and Spirit, so the two were interchangeable to Crowley in an esoteric sense. In practical terms he related Fire to work, business and ambition in general.

 

The human energy fields can definitely be mapped to the Tree. Israel Regardie considered the Tree of Life to be a "giant filing cabinet" which can absorb and catalogue any idea whatsoever.

[Barleywine]

10 minutes ago, Starlight said:

Interesting! You're right. The further you travel into the swords, the bleaker it gets. I never really thought about that before. But as a descent it makes sense.

The higher-numbered Swords have fewer redeeming qualities than in any other suit. It's like the mental energy becomes cut off from its source of inspiration, and Swords are too single-minded to adapt and "go with the flow." Crowley's comment on the 9 of Disks might be applied to all of the suits: “As a general remark, one may say that the multiplication of a symbol of Energy always tends to degrade its essential meaning, as well as to complicate it.”

[Starlight]

17 minutes ago, Barleywine said:

It's not the realm of fantasy, it's the Astral Plane.

I must apologise. I didn't mean my comment to be derogatory. I meant the genre of story these beings appear in. (Tolkien, Rothfuss, etc.) I know occultists and metaphysicians know these beings exist on a plane not visible to ordinary people.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Starlight

[Starlight]

18 minutes ago, Barleywine said:

The interrelationship of the four qabalistic worlds is a vast, complex and technical topic; I could point you at some reading on the subject, but it's far beyond out purpose here.

Fair enough. I'd like to work my way gradually to that level of knowledge.

 

14 minutes ago, Barleywine said:

It's like the mental energy becomes cut off from its source of inspiration, and Swords are too single-minded to adapt and "go with the flow."

And how did that happen? Are the suits almost like a forecast of what happens when you approach life from a particular perspective? Like a teacher of sorts?