Yves Releases a Marseille Deck Said To Have Mlle Lenormands Handwriting On It

[Raggydoll]

Link: https://tarot-de-marseille-heritage.com/english/historic_tarots_gallery.html (scroll down)

 

Whether this truly is Mlle Lenormands handwriting or not is still up for debate. But it’s definitely an interesting deck! I believe it will be made available soon. 

 

 

 

 

 

[katrinka]

Whoa. 

I'm sure there's a scan of Mlle.'s signature online someplace. Need to find it and compare...

[katrinka]

In any case, I want this one. I'm a sucker for old decks people wrote on. 🙂

[Decan]

I note that this means that she used the TdM reversal!

For Le Mat it is written "illness" at the bottom and reversed "illness knowledge".

The Fool has really a different meaning in the TdM with regard to the Fool in the RWS, not positive at all finally.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Decan

[Raggydoll]

44 minutes ago, katrinka said:

In any case, I want this one. I'm a sucker for old decks people wrote on. 🙂

Me too. I am definitely getting it!

[Raggydoll]

39 minutes ago, Decan said:

I note that this means that she used the TdM reversal!

For Le Mat it is written "illness" at the bottom and reversed "illness knowledge".

The Fool has really a different meaning in the TdM with regard to the Fool in the RWS, not positive at all finally.

My French is almost non existent so perhaps we can all try to join forces and decode what each card says? Would be a really cool project. Also, she has re-numbered them for some reason. That’s really intriguing too! 

[Decan]

1 minute ago, Raggydoll said:

My French is almost non existent so perhaps we can all try to join forces and decode what each card says? Would be a really cool project. Also, she has re-numbered them for some reason. That’s really intriguing too! 

I was writting this complement to my post:

I just add that reversed it is written illness then knowledge, not precisely knowledge of an illness, actually maybe but it would be an interpretation, so we can't jump right away to this conclusion.

And of course an identification (Mlle Lenormand or not?) would be necessary too!

 

As a complement it is written on the other cards:

Happy conclusion of a matter / loss (Sun upright/reversed)

Success in businesses ; could be maybe "in cases" (instead of businesses) here, a precision would be useful because "les affaires" in french can refer to several matters (Justice upright)

[Guest]

Thank you for sharing the present news, @Raggydoll

 

High-resolution scans of 76 of the cards are available for download from the BNF digital library: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10537348r/f1.item

 

Regards

KevinM

[Guest]

Hello, Decan

 

Quote

I note that this means that she used the TdM reversal!

For Le Mat it is written "illness" at the bottom and reversed "illness knowledge".

The Fool has really a different meaning in the TdM with regard to the Fool in the RWS, not positive at all finally.

 

Certainly; one need only consider the the corresponding card of such examples as the pack that was thought to have been illustrated by Bonifacio Bembo circa 1450-1480: the subject appears to be a malnourished vagrant who has developed a goiter.

 

As a result of the aforesaid example, three of the many nouns that I assign to The Fool are homelessness, malnutrition, and unemployment.

 

Regards

KevinM

Edited August 1, 2019 by Guest

[Guest]

Hello, katrinka

 

Quote

In any case, I want this one. I'm a sucker for old decks people wrote on.

 

The BNF have in their collection a second pack of tarot cards that have been written on: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10543303s.item

 

Regards

KevinM

Edited August 1, 2019 by Guest

[Marigold]

1 hour ago, Decan said:

I note that this means that she used the TdM reversal!

For Le Mat it is written "illness" at the bottom and reversed "illness knowledge".

The Fool has really a different meaning in the TdM with regard to the Fool in the RWS, not positive at all finally.

I will just sneak in and sneak out as this will veer way off topic.  I've been with the TdM for more than 20 years now almost exclusively and I've never heard nor seen that Le Mat reversed means illness. Perhaps a mental health problem at the push if the surrounding cards support this. Doesn't mean it can't NOT mean ill health. But it's not something that a TdM reader will exclaim aloud with a Fool reversed like a Eureka moment.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Marigold

[Raggydoll]

3 minutes ago, KevinM said:

Hello, katrinka

 

 

The BNF have in their collection a second pack of tarot cards that have been written on: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10543303s.item

 

Regards

KevinM

Thank you so much for sharing! This is very exciting! 

[Decan]

I think this topic could interest particularly @_R_ @devin and @leroidetrèfle who are much more knowlegeable than me concerning this matter.

 

On the BNF website the general informations about the first TdM annotated said indeed that the writings are attributed to Mlle Lenormand, so...

 

[Decan]

20 minutes ago, Marigold said:

I will just sneak in and sneak out as this will veer way off topic.  I've been with the TdM for more than 20 years now almost exclusively and I've never heard not seen that Le Mat reversed means illness. Perhaps a mental health problem at the push if the surrounding cards support this.

Yes it is what is written on this card, even upright! Intriguing!

Edited August 1, 2019 by Decan

[Decan]

35 minutes ago, KevinM said:

As a result of the aforesaid example, three of the many nouns that I assign to The Fool are homelessness, malnutrition, and unemployment.

I think that fits the traditional meanings I read about this card.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Decan

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

Thank you so much for sharing! This is very exciting! 

You are very welcome 🙂

 

Regards

KevinM

[Guest]

Hello, marigold

 

Quote

I will just sneak in and sneak out as this will veer way off topic.  I've been with the TdM for more than 20 years now almost exclusively and I've never heard nor seen that Le Mat reversed means illness. Perhaps a mental health problem at the push if the surrounding cards support this. Doesn't mean it can't NOT mean ill health. But it's not something that a TdM reader will exclaim aloud with a Fool reversed like a Eureka moment.

 

Since The Fool is sometimes known in Italian and French by titles that translate as the madman, mental illness could be assigned to the said card by default, though one would not ordinarily apply such a signification.

 

Owing to the designation, the fool, one could also associate the said card, as I do, with the nouns foolishness, idiocy, and stupidity.

 

Regards

KevinM

Edited August 1, 2019 by Guest

[Marigold]

34 minutes ago, KevinM said:

Hello, marigold

 

 

Since The Fool is sometimes known in Italian and French by titles that translate as the madman, mental illness could be assigned to the said card by default, though one would not ordinarily apply such a signification.

 

Owing to the designation, the fool, one could also associate the said card, as I do, with the nouns foolishness, idiocy, and stupidity.

 

Regards

KevinM

Sounds good. Also further up in the post that mentions homelessness and whatnot. 

 

But I think mental illness could be indicated if it's reversed. Not if it's upright (although.... maybe maybe it could now I come to think about it. But this would not be the case for all mental illnesses or what may be CONSIDERED a mental illness.)

 

Just want to add that when Decan mentions traditional meanings (and I know I'm splitting hairs here, I do understand that "traditional" is a figure of speech which can naturally slip into any tarot discussion because it's a useful and handy word), but one should keep in mind that there's no such thing as a traditional meaning for TdM cards. There are perhaps some common interpretations that have taken a certain hold and then perpetuated in books that are written by people who've read previously other books saying similar things, or perpetuated now through the means of the internet. (This is not to denigrate these interpretations - on the contrary, if they've taken hold they must have some authenticity about them, but to call them traditional I think is incorrect and misleading.)

Edited August 1, 2019 by Marigold

[gregory]

But we need to realise that these are her (or someone's) views - not "the original" or canon meanings. I am interested that she has numbered the cards - I thought at first they were the Etteilla numbers, but no....

[Raggydoll]

2 minutes ago, gregory said:

But we need to realise that these are her (or someone's) views - not "the original" or canon meanings. I am interested that she has numbered the cards - I thought at first they were the Etteilla numbers, but no....

Absolutely. These handwritings are like a window into one persons view of the possible interpretations. I find it very exciting because we get an understanding of one way in how they could have been interpreted back then. I hope someone will chime in with a theory of those numbers. Should we try to list the trumps in her order here? Maybe it will shed some light. The next step will be to arrange an official seance where we ask her about it. Or not.. ☺️

 

 

 

[Guest]

Quote

I hope someone will chime in with a theory of those numbers.

 

I had not even considered the numbers until now; perhaps he or she who made the inscriptions intended a similar purpose as the numbers that appear on sibyl cards and on such fortune-telling cards as kipper cards.

 

Regards

KevinM

Edited August 1, 2019 by Guest

[Eric13]

Oh no. I wake up to this. Where's that de-enable thread. 

[gregory]

28 minutes ago, KevinM said:

 

I had not even considered the numbers until now; perhaps he or she who made the inscriptions intended a similar purpose as the numbers that appear on sibyl cards and on such fortune-telling cards as kipper cards.

 

Regards

KevinM

I have realised I have issues with some of the numbers....

 

This - at first I pegged it as 19.

 

 

 

But then I hit this:

 

 

 

94 ? Makes no sense. But if 54 - why underline it to suggest the old this is a 9 not a 6 thing.... So is it a 5, then ? - as I am now assuming for purposes of this examination... back later with a full list !

Edited August 1, 2019 by gregory

[Raggydoll]

32 minutes ago, gregory said:

I have realised I have issues with some of the numbers....

 

This - at first I pegged it as 19.

 

 

 

But then I hit this:

 

 

 

94 ? Makes no sense. But if 54 - why underline it to suggest the old this is a 9 not a 6 thing.... So is it a 5, then ? - as I am now assuming for purposes of this examination... back later with a full list !

It might be some cartomancy reference as I believe that mlle lenormand preferred regular playing cards for her divinatory work. Not sure if it makes any more sense in that context though. I look forward to your compilation! 

[Raggydoll]

45 minutes ago, Joe said:

Oh no. I wake up to this. Where's that de-enable thread. 

Go back to bed and pretend this was all a dream 😋