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Yves Releases a Marseille Deck Said To Have Mlle Lenormands Handwriting On It


Raggydoll

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4 hours ago, KevinM said:

Hello, katrinka

 

 

The BNF have in their collection a second pack of tarot cards that have been written on: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10543303s.item

 

Regards

KevinM

The annotations on this second deck are thought to be in Paul Marteau's hand, see the descriptor: https://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb409188440

Incidentally, consider the deck, and consider which card is missing.

Edited by _R_
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This annotated deck, attributed to Mlle Lenormand is well-known, although whether she inscribed it or not is a moot point. It is quite likely that the nature and full extent of Mlle Lenormand's contribution to cartomancy will never be fully elucidated, and she herself played no small part in this obfuscation - why let the truth get in the way of a good story? 

 

Speaking of good stories, Mlle Lenormand plays an important role - as does the Tarot - in the remarkable French novel "Le Sang de Robespierre" by Alfred Boudry, a vampire mystery story set in the years following the French Revolution, the structure of which is somewhat based on the role-playing game, "Vampire: The Masquerade". It is unfortunate that this well-written and engaging book is presently out of print.

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3 minutes ago, _R_ said:

This annotated deck, attributed to Mlle Lenormand is well-known, although whether she inscribed it or not is a moot point. It is quite likely that the nature and full extent of Mlle Lenormand's contribution to cartomancy will never be fully elucidated, and she herself played no small part in this obfuscation - why let the truth get in the way of a good story? 

Absolutely. It turned out to be a stroke of genius for her (which she probably had already seen in her cards that it would be ☺️)

3 minutes ago, _R_ said:

Speaking of good stories, Mlle Lenormand plays an important role - as does the Tarot - in the remarkable French novel "Le Sang de Robespierre" by Alfred Boudry, a vampire mystery story set in the years following the French Revolution, the structure of which is somewhat based on the role-playing game, "Vampire: The Masquerade". It is unfortunate that this well-written and engaging book is presently out of print.

That’s interesting. Was it ever made available in English or just French? 

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2 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

Absolutely. It turned out to be a stroke of genius for her (which she probably had already seen in her cards that it would be ☺️)

That’s interesting. Was it ever made available in English or just French? 

Only French, but it is the kind of book I could see doing well in English, and not on account of vampires being the "in thing" these days, but because the quality of the story harkens (pun unintended) back to the classic novels of the 19th century.

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5 hours ago, Decan said:

I think this topic could interest particularly @_R_ @devin and @leroidetrèfle who are much more knowlegeable than me concerning this matter.

Thanks for mentioning me amongst such august company, Decan, but I don't think I deserve the honour. 😀 Still, you were right, I do find this thread particularly interesting!

Edited by devin
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Hello, _R_

 

Quote

The annotations on this second deck are thought to be in Paul Marteau's hand, see the descriptor: https://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb409188440

I was not aware, thank you.

 

Quote

Incidentally, consider the deck, and consider which card is missing.

I am intrigued; the four of coins is not included and though the said card usually bears initials, I fear that your hints are lost on me: I do not recognise the significance of the said card being absent, whether when considered in relation to the rest of the pack or otherwise.

 

I do hope that you will enlighten me.

 

Regards

Kevin

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4 minutes ago, KevinM said:

Hello, _R_

 

I was not aware, thank you.

 

I am intrigued; the four of coins is not included and though the said card usually bears initials, I fear that your hints are lost on me: I do not recognise the significance of the said card being absent, whether when considered in relation to the rest of the pack or otherwise.

 

I do hope that you will enlighten me.

 

Regards

Kevin

And me too, please 😊

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27 minutes ago, gregory said:

OK so - it SORT of works, though in the deck first linked, 8 batons is missing. I also seem to have two numbers that are apparently 57. At least assuming it's a 5 gives me 78 numbers less two (one ?duplicate and one missing card.)

That’s really interesting! 

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Great thread and interesting comments! Thanks!

Concerning the first deck (annotations attributed to Mlle lenormand) I really don't know if she(?) refers to the TdM or to the Etteilla Tarot... I say that because what is written on several cards is strange with regard to the TdM but could make sense with regard to the Etteilla. Well, I'm wondering here.

For example for the Hermit the word striped at the top is "traitor" and the annotations are "ruse" and "deceit".

For the Star the word striped is unreable, but on the card it is written "bad deals"; concerning the Etteilla Tarot I remember that the Star card has a negative meaning, but concerning the TdM I never saw a bad meaning for this card.

 

The second deck annotated (posted by KevinM is very interesting with regard to the words annotated on it, more classical I would say)

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4 minutes ago, Decan said:

Great thread and interesting comments! Thanks!

Concerning the first deck (annotations attributed to Mlle lenormand) I really don't know if she(?) refers to the TdM or to the Etteilla Tarot... I say that because what is written on several cards is strange with regard to the TdM but could make sense with regard to the Etteilla. Well, I'm wondering here.

For example for the Hermit the word striped at the top is "traitor" and the annotations are "ruse" and "deceit".

For the Star the word striped is unreable, but on the card it is written "bad deals"; concerning the Etteilla Tarot I remember that the Star card has a negative meaning, but concerning the TdM I never saw a bad meaning for this card.

Those are some interesting keywords for sure..

4 minutes ago, Decan said:

The second deck annotated (posted by KevinM is very interesting with regard to the words annotated on it, more classical I would say)

Gaah I wish I knew French! 😭 I wonder if there is a translation of it somewhere. They should have at least documented what it said in French I think 🤔

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14 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

Those are some interesting keywords for sure..

Gaah I wish I knew French! 😭 I wonder if there is a translation of it somewhere. They should have at least documented what it said in French I think 🤔

If you need any help with French, I'm willing to help out. (Am fluent in French). Perhaps you could group everything you want to know in one post. If you translate with google, google may not understand any subtleties if there are any and that would be a pity. Also generally speaking, if anyone wants a translation from the French, they can always PM me.

Edited by Marigold
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The TdM with the alleged Mlle Le Normand annotations is well-known.  

 

Examples of Le Normand’s handwriting exist but the attribution is far more complicated than matching her handwriting.  

 

Le Normand herself is a figure shrouded in mythology and legend; much of her own invention. Her writings indicate that she did utilise the tarot we refer to as TdM. However the exact variation is both unknown and would be impossible to confirm. On her death, much of the estate was auctioned. Without getting out her file I cannot remember specifically the details.

 

Depending on the service her client paid for it appears she used several different cards - TdM, German and French playing cards, several cards utilising varied designs. The cards could have belonged to her.  I’m doubtful.

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1 hour ago, gregory said:

OK so - it SORT of works, though in the deck first linked, 8 batons is missing. I also seem to have two numbers that are apparently 57. At least assuming it's a 5 gives me 78 numbers less two (one ?duplicate and one missing card.)

And if you assume it's a 9 and not a 5, would that give anything ? It could very well be a 9. It's an odd 9 I admit, but I tried to write a 9 and it didn't seem impossible. It's also an odd 5. But it's either a 5 or a 9 I would think. Can't see it being anything else.

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1 minute ago, Marigold said:

If you need any help with French, I'm willing to help out. (Am fluent in French). Perhaps you could group everything you want to know in one post. If you translate with google, google may not understand any subtleties if there are any and that would be a pity. Also generally speaking, if anyone wants a translation from the French, they can always PM me.

That is very generous ❤️. Im not sure if I could even decipher that French handwriting on that other deck that KevinM linked to, so I probably wouldn’t know how to type it out to translate it unfortunately 😟

 

(But if anyone ever needs any help with Swedish - and to some extent, Norwegian and danish - then I’ll gladly help out.)

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1 minute ago, Raggydoll said:

That is very generous ❤️. Im not sure if I could even decipher that French handwriting on that other deck that KevinM linked to, so I probably wouldn’t know how to type it out to translate it unfortunately 😟

 

 

Well, I'll see if I have time tomorrow to look closer (if the writing is decipherable). Am too lazy this evening to do it. 

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1 hour ago, Marigold said:

And if you assume it's a 9 and not a 5, would that give anything ? It could very well be a 9. It's an odd 9 I admit, but I tried to write a 9 and it didn't seem impossible. It's also an odd 5. But it's either a 5 or a 9 I would think. Can't see it being anything else.

If it were a 9 you would have several numbers in the nineties, which seems strange.  As a 5, at least they all end up within the 78 as you might say. I might try and post the list....

 

I'm going to go see if I can see the full deck of the Marteau one.

 

OK - much writing, no numbers !

Edited by gregory
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King Cups 1
6 Lovers 2
Knight Swords 3
10 Swords 4
7 Coins 5
5 Pope 6
Page Coins 7
3 Empress 8
8 Justice 9
1 magician 10
Knight Cups 11
2 HP 12
King Coins 13
Queen Swords 14
0 Fool 15
17 Star 16
13 Death  17
7 Chariot 18
Ace Coins 20
4 Swords 21
Knight Wands 22
2 Cups 23
Ace Cups 24
Knight Coins 25
11 Strength 26
8 Swords 27
21 World 28
5 Cups 29
9 Hermit 30
8 Coins 31
3 Cups 32
4 Emperor 33
Ace Swords 34
2 Coins 35
3 Coins 36
6 Wands 37
King Wands 38
Queen Wands 39
10 Cups 40
4 Cups 41
9 Cups 42
Page Swords 43
8 Cups 44
Page Cups 46
10 Coins 47
King Swords 48
5 Swords 49
Page Wands 50
5 Wands 51
2 Swords 52
7 Wands 53
12 Hanged Man 54
Queen Cups 55
18 Moon 56
Ace Wands 57
9 Wands 57
6 Swords 58
3 Wands 59
Queen Coins 60
9 Swords 61
19 Sun 62
6 Coins 63
10 Wands 64
10 Wheel 65
9 Coins 66
16 Tower 67
3 Swords 68
20 Judgement 69
14 Temperance 70
7 Swords 71
15 Devil 72
4 Wands 73
6 Cups 74
4 Coins 75
7 Cups 76
2 Wands 77
5 Coins 78
8 Wands  

 

 

So there you have it.... two 57s, and a missing card...

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@KevinM Thank you for the link, and @Decan, thanks for translating!

2 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

The TdM with the alleged Mlle Le Normand annotations is well-known.  

 

Examples of Le Normand’s handwriting exist but the attribution is far more complicated than matching her handwriting.  

 

Le Normand herself is a figure shrouded in mythology and legend; much of her own invention. Her writings indicate that she did utilise the tarot we refer to as TdM. However the exact variation is both unknown and would be impossible to confirm. On her death, much of the estate was auctioned. Without getting out her file I cannot remember specifically the details.

 

Depending on the service her client paid for it appears she used several different cards - TdM, German and French playing cards, several cards utilising varied designs. The cards could have belonged to her.  I’m doubtful.

I seem to recall a story that she left everything to her nephew, who was a devout Catholic. Didn't he destroy a lot of her things, as well?

And if the original owner of the deck used some Etteilla-isms, that doesn't surprise me. I'm guessing Etteila's book would have been the only one available there in those times.

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12 hours ago, KevinM said:

Certainly; one need only consider the the corresponding card of such examples as the pack that was thought to have been illustrated by Bonifacio Bembo circa 1450-1480: the subject appears to be a malnourished vagrant who has developed a goiter.

 

As a result of the aforesaid example, three of the many nouns that I assign to The Fool are homelessness, malnutrition, and unemployment.

Illness does make sense for the Fool.
He lacks the means and the cognitive ability to take care of himself.
In our own times, we have modern medicine and in some cities, outreach workers trying to ensure that the homeless population is taking meds for TB, etc. But during the era referenced in the cards, this obviously wasn't the case. The arrival of a vagrant could herald an epidemic of smallpox, plague, or other diseases.

(I am not saying this to cast aspersions on the homeless. If anything, we should be taking much better care of them - for everyones' sake.)

Edited by katrinka
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18 hours ago, katrinka said:

 

@KevinM Thank you for the link, and @Decan, thanks for translating!

I seem to recall a story that she left everything to her nephew, who was a devout Catholic. Didn't he destroy a lot of her things, as well?

And if the original owner of the deck used some Etteilla-isms, that doesn't surprise me. I'm guessing Etteila's book would have been the only one available there in those times.

Her nephew, Alexandre Hugo (going on memory), initiated legal proceedings against certain individuals who utilised Le Normand’s name to promote their services. He was quite keen to distance himself from her celebrity/infamy. It is believed that he destroyed some of her belongings. 

 

The TdM could have belonged to her. It could be her writing. But it could also have belonged to someone else.

 

There is nothing to place that specific deck in her possession - as far as I am aware. 

 

Le Normand is the doyenne of cartomancy. Her name is attractive. Personally, I am open to the idea that she may have utilised the Game of Hope or a lost variation.

 

From her writing she used a TdM. Etteilla ? Maybe.

 

She claimed to have learned to read from a Madame Gilbert - that was her mother’s maiden name. It’s assumed to be a relative but no one has positively identified her.

 

Gilbert, from Le Normand’s writings, used Tarot cards which Caitlín Matthews thought was Etteilla. But I never knew why, as the relevant text give card titles found in both the GE and TdM. 

Edited by leroidetrèfle
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13 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Illness does make sense for the Fool.
He lacks the means and the cognitive ability to take care of himself.
In our own times, we have modern medicine and in some cities, outreach workers trying to ensure that the homeless population is taking meds for TB, etc. But during the era referenced in the cards, this obviously wasn't the case. The arrival of a vagrant could herald an epidemic of smallpox, plague, or other diseases.

(I am not saying this to cast aspersions on the homeless. If anything, we should be taking much better care of them - for everyones' sake.)

The Fool as a madman connects directly to sickness. Early modern views did not differentiate between physical and mental health.

 

It is quite clear on the Visconti tarots that the Fool has cretinism and an enlarged thyroid.

 

The Anglo-Saxon Fool is an extremely different animal to his counterparts ...

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