Learning Tdm (Resources And Discussions)

[Lee]

2 hours ago, katrinka said:

The card image, the correspondences, etc. should all be different ways of conveying the same essence, and said essence can likewise be put into different contexts and applied as needed.

 

2 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Sometimes the Five of Pentacles is the heating breaking down and other times it’s the feeling of being rejected or out in the cold. 

Yes, these are good descriptions of exactly how I read. 

[katrinka]

30 minutes ago, Lee said:

 

Yes, these are good descriptions of exactly how I read. 

Then, where the rubber meets the road, we're really not at odds.

 

[Raggydoll]

9 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Hi @Raggydoll

 

What I admire with Colette Silvestre is her directness. She is concise and focused.  However some of her critics find this pedestrian and on her books can be a mixed bag. 

Le Soleil in Relationships:

 

This card is an indication of happiness, joie de vivre, fulfillment and shared love. All relationships and connections are bursting with spontaneity and radiance.

 

Her example readings are done in a similar direct manner.  Short and sweet.  That can be problematic as sometimes you wonder “why”. But overall I enjoy the focus. 

I think short and sweet is good when you want to be sure that you (or the sitter) actually got something out of the reading. It’s easier to understand and to follow along. And it’s easier to remember.  I personally feel that it’s important to actually try to understand every reading that you receive, not just consume them like fast food. Otherwise it can’t do anything significant for you and you’ll just get a short lived high. 

[devin]

14 hours ago, Lee said:

Not addressing this next thought to anyone in particular but just in general, I think there's an interesting discussion to be had about the move by some authors toward treating the TdM as a playing card deck and thus focusing on mundane concerns, and whether that means all religious/mystical/spiritual/psychological influences to the Triumphs (which I think people in the 14th-18th centuries would have taken for granted) should be ignored.

Not, of course, that the mundane doesn't have religious, mystical, and spiritual significance. Demeter searched for Persephone in the world. The timeless can be plotted as it moves through time. The Word is made flesh. A thread has two ends. (Oh, how pompous I sound.) So, in other words, and while admitting that my knowledge of esotericism is super-duper scant, I think the two areas of focus can go beautifully hand in hand.

 

In other news: I was interested to learn recently that earlier authors used certain trumps as straight-up significators. This pleased me as I have for some time now been treating the Emperor and Empress as functional siginificators. I was inspired to do so by, first, lenormand, and, second, by never finding the Empress and Emperor to be particularly useful cards. (That, and they so often showed up in my readings as representing the querent or their most significant other of the opposite sex). Using significators in a dynamic fashion (shuffling them into the pack) is such a wonderful way to add perspective to a reading.... ie. is the Devil whispering his temptation from afar or does he have you by the crotch? Anyway, it was gratifying to find this approach has tarot pedigree.

 

On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2020 at 11:36 AM, Raggydoll said:

I’m definitely no scholar either so you’re in good company. Please still contribute, it makes it less daunting for others like us to jump in. I think it’s important that we don’t make these discussions feel too inaccessible. A lot of people aren’t scholarly inclined and many of us also have a limited English vocabulary (like myself). But everyone can contribute, I truly think that! 

That's the great thing, us simple minded folk can sit back, let the scholars do the heavy lifting, and enjoy the fruits!

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I think short and sweet is good when you want to be sure that you (or the sitter) actually got something out of the reading. It’s easier to understand and to follow along. And it’s easier to remember.  I personally feel that it’s important to actually try to understand every reading that you receive, not just consume them like fast food. Otherwise it can’t do anything significant for you and you’ll just get a short lived high. 

Well said. It is important to stress that Silvestre’s directness and focus is centred on individual questions. When she discusses each card in specific context Silvestre is really just illustrating essence read as function. This is clearer in her examples where she relates cards - such as in the astrological wheel. 

She does explain the cards, too. She’ll discuss their iconography, associations, numerology, et cetera. 
 

Generally I am no fan of books that give you cards’ ”meanings” under different areas, e.g. love, finances, health. Silvestre does it the best - across the board, her Lenormand book is the best. 
 

As said some of her books are disappointing - the chakra and daily draws - but when she’s on fire she’s good. 

 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, katrinka said:

Then, where the rubber meets the road, we're really not at odds.

 

This.

 

All too often the arguments are unnecessary. Very often we align more to certain approaches - either through interest, beliefs or culture - but these need not be battle lines. 

[sixdegrees]

1 hour ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Well said. It is important to stress that Silvestre’s directness and focus is centred on individual questions. When she discusses each card in specific context Silvestre is really just illustrating essence read as function. This is clearer in her examples where she relates cards - such as in the astrological wheel. 

She does explain the cards, too. She’ll discuss their iconography, associations, numerology, et cetera. 
 

Generally I am no fan of books that give you cards’ ”meanings” under different areas, e.g. love, finances, health. Silvestre does it the best

 

*sigh* I do wish that someone would translate her works into English. From what I can tell, she's prolific enough to warrant it, and there a growing market. 

[_R_]

On 1/3/2020 at 11:52 AM, Lee said:

I will say, as TT&M member _R_ has posted (and I enjoy _R_'s posts a lot), there are different ways to read TdM and no one "correct" way. 

Hello Lee, thanks for your kind words. I have not read your booklet but I did read your posts back in the day on AeT. It is worth repeating that, as far as reading methodologies are concerned, the 19th century French material is largely based on Etteilla's elaborate methods, and can hardly be said to be "TdM" specific due to the particularities of his own deck.

 

On 1/4/2020 at 5:23 AM, leroidetrèfle said:

What I admire with Colette Silvestre is her directness. She is concise and focused.  However some of her critics find this pedestrian and on her books can be a mixed bag. 

This is a fair assessment, though I would tend more towards the "pedestrian" side, but perhaps that is due to the book(s) I read, a good few years ago now, and which did not make much of an impression. Workmanlike and functional, certainly; stimulating and original, probably not.

 

On 1/4/2020 at 6:32 AM, katrinka said:

For a long time the books (in english, at least) would talk about Jung and whatnot, or rhapsodize about spirituality, but there was nothing practical that addressed answering common questions (something to do with the client's love life or finances, more often than not) and we had to muddle through on our own.

In French, it is somewhat similar, although given the cultural pervasiveness of Tarot in France (to a certain degree), the popular books tend to be more mundane, generic and functional, and the more "intellectual" ones deal more with spirituality, psychology, symbolism, etc.

[Merrick]

Thanks to the advice in this thread, I’m going to dig into playing card cartomancy to help aid my TdM readings. I’ve spent a lot of time on the pips but this will be a good way to expand my horizons. 
 

Meanwhile I found this site from the links page on Tarot Sheet Revival’s website: https://www.3x7.org/en/

 

This site looks at possible inspirations for the major arcana imagery and places they in both historical and philosophical context. While I think the majors can be read in so many ways, it seems extremely valuable to me to consider the philosophical viewpoints of the people who may have first crafted those images. 

[Raggydoll]

1 hour ago, Merrick said:

Thanks to the advice in this thread, I’m going to dig into playing card cartomancy to help aid my TdM readings. I’ve spent a lot of time on the pips but this will be a good way to expand my horizons. 
 

Meanwhile I found this site from the links page on Tarot Sheet Revival’s website: https://www.3x7.org/en/

 

This site looks at possible inspirations for the major arcana imagery and places they in both historical and philosophical context. While I think the majors can be read in so many ways, it seems extremely valuable to me to consider the philosophical viewpoints of the people who may have first crafted those images. 

Interesting link, I will check it out! And thanks for bringing this thread back to life! 

[Merrick]

Just now, Raggydoll said:

Interesting link, I will check it out! And thanks for bringing this thread back to life! 

Absolutely! Lately I’ve been diving deep into the TdM to the exclusion of all other decks, and I’ve been devouring any info I can find. Needless to say this thread is a goldmine. 

[Raggydoll]

21 minutes ago, Merrick said:

Absolutely! Lately I’ve been diving deep into the TdM to the exclusion of all other decks, and I’ve been devouring any info I can find. Needless to say this thread is a goldmine. 

Brilliant, keep sharing with us!

[Merrick]

Here’s a video series that really opened up my understanding of the pips, to the point where I was doing pips only TdM readings for a while just to develop a strong relationship with them: 

 

The presenter is very thoughtful in his approach. He’s also done a series on playing card cartomancy that I am going to use along with the link that was provided back on page 1 or 2 of this thread for my playing card education. 

[Marigold]

Greetings everyone.

TAROT OF MARSEILLES STUDY GROUP

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1958270691141089/

I hope you don't mind my announcing that I've opened up a facebook group devoted EXCLUSIVELY AND ONLY to the Tarot of Marseilles. It's called the Tarot of Marseilles Study Group. I opened it two evenings ago.

The blurb is this one:

"This Study group is dedicated solely to the study of the Tarot of Marseilles, the Ur Tarot. No other traditions are allowed, so no RWS, no Thoth, nor any other modern invention. So called "TdM inspired" decks are also unwelcome. Anyone, whether new to the TdM or already seasoned, is welcome to join and participate in the discovery of this great Tarot tradition.

All topics as long as they have some relevance to the TdM are allowed. Off-topic is an expression that doesn't exist here. So politics, religion, or whatever subjects are usually frowned upon in tarot circles, are allowed and even encouraged. As long, as I said, they have some relation to the Tarot. If they don't, they will be deleted.

Also I'm a huge fan of freedom of speech. But I remind you that freedom of speech is not a licence to kill. There too, I will delete any posts that are of that nature. But my tolerance will be great so anyone who has a thin skin should keep away as you won't like it here."

***********

Would be happy to welcome TdM scholars and enthusiasts.

 

Thank you!!! 

[Raggydoll]

1 hour ago, Marigold said:

Greetings everyone.

TAROT OF MARSEILLES STUDY GROUP

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1958270691141089/

I hope you don't mind my announcing that I've opened up a facebook group devoted EXCLUSIVELY AND ONLY to the Tarot of Marseilles. It's called the Tarot of Marseilles Study Group. I opened it two evenings ago.

The blurb is this one:

"This Study group is dedicated solely to the study of the Tarot of Marseilles, the Ur Tarot. No other traditions are allowed, so no RWS, no Thoth, nor any other modern invention. So called "TdM inspired" decks are also unwelcome. Anyone, whether new to the TdM or already seasoned, is welcome to join and participate in the discovery of this great Tarot tradition.

All topics as long as they have some relevance to the TdM are allowed. Off-topic is an expression that doesn't exist here. So politics, religion, or whatever subjects are usually frowned upon in tarot circles, are allowed and even encouraged. As long, as I said, they have some relation to the Tarot. If they don't, they will be deleted.

Also I'm a huge fan of freedom of speech. But I remind you that freedom of speech is not a licence to kill. There too, I will delete any posts that are of that nature. But my tolerance will be great so anyone who has a thin skin should keep away as you won't like it here."

***********

Would be happy to welcome TdM scholars and enthusiasts.

 

Thank you!!! 

Thanks for the information and good luck with this project! 

[Marigold]

Thank you Raggydoll. You've changed your avatar to your card!!! It's gorgeous. 

 

[Raggydoll]

9 hours ago, Marigold said:

Thank you Raggydoll. You've changed your avatar to your card!!! It's gorgeous. 

 

Thank you ❤️

[devin]

There's another good post gone up on Traditional Tarot. 

 

https://traditionaltarot.wordpress.com/2020/07/03/the-tarot-and-love/

 

It's a translation of a little 1930s French piece on tarot and love with a run down of the significance of various cards bent to a romantic context: The Popess - solemn and Platonic love, Empress - fertile love, Lovers - hesitation and a fickle heart, Chariot - amorous triumph, Hanged Man - possessive or jealous love, Death - the end of an affair, the Devil - you won't be bored(!), the Tower - crumbling passion owing to infidelity, etc. Well worth a gander and racier than one might expect.

 

What I find particularly interesting is the listing of the Lovers as a sign of hesitation and or a fickle heart. I'd always assumed this was a more recent interpretive development. Personally, and for some time now, I've employed card VI as a sliding scale centered around commitment. If surrounded by negative cards, it represents disloyalty, if positively aspected, strong commitment, faithfulness, maybe even marriage. A neutral environment would signify a degree of hesitation or ambiguity. This approach at least integrates the various interpretations to be found lying about the place, and, in my experience, works well.

 

It's also good and sensible to see the Popess listed as representing Platonic/solemn love. It just makes sense. That said, I have at times used her mysterious and secretive nature successfully as a significator for the (or should it be that) 'other woman.' 

 

 

Amen.

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by devin

[_R_]

Thanks for the write-up Devin.

3 hours ago, devin said:

What I find particularly interesting is the listing of the Lovers as a sign of hesitation and or a fickle heart.

That is one of the more common interpretations of the card, indeed. Some of the reasons for this will be examined in another piece due to be published later this week, as it happens, so stay tuned.

3 hours ago, devin said:

It's also good and sensible to see the Popess listed as representing Platonic/solemn love.

Typically, and depending on the relative position, the Popess can either represent platonic love, period, or a platonic love developing into a romantic one, in other words, that the potential romantic partner concerned is known already to the querent.

 

(Do I need to add a disclaimer to say that these understandings are derived from French materials?)

[devin]

On 7/6/2020 at 12:20 PM, _R_ said:

That is one of the more common interpretations of the card, indeed.

I was aware of card VIs diverse and longstanding range of divinatory meanings. But I did think it's reduction to hesitation and indecision was a more recent development. However, upon inspecting my meager tarot library, I see this interpretation goes all the way back to Paul Christian! I look forward to the next installment. 

On 7/6/2020 at 12:20 PM, _R_ said:

Typically, and depending on the relative position, the Popess can either represent platonic love, period, or a platonic love developing into a romantic one, in other words, that the potential romantic partner concerned is known already to the querent.

Is the lady really for turning? Secret loves on the other hand, I get that, sure.

On 7/6/2020 at 12:20 PM, _R_ said:

(Do I need to add a disclaimer to say that these understandings are derived from French materials?)

Yes. All this Gallic passion has made me come over all giddy. I may need a lie down. Future warnings would be appreciated.

Edited July 8, 2020 by devin

[_R_]

10 hours ago, devin said:

I was aware of card VIs diverse and longstanding range of divinatory meanings. But I did think it's reduction to hesitation and indecision was a more recent development. However, upon inspecting my meager tarot library, I see this interpretation goes all the way back to Paul Christian! I look forward to the next installment. 

 

The idea can be further reduced with reference to Pythagoreanism and its numerology: 6 as the number of marriage - a tempting correspondence, if ever there was one; and, with respect to the hesitation, the Pythagorean 'Y'.

 

[devin]

Touché! You've really touched on something here, I think.

 

[devin]

Another of your recent translations I found most interesting was Théophile Briant's exploration of the image. 

 

https://traditionaltarot.wordpress.com/2020/06/26/theophile-briant-the-image/

 

Quote

We know that there are two modes of access to Knowledge: the rational way and the affective way. The first is that of the philosophers, of blinkered thinkers, and in general, of all of Descartes’ offspring. It analyses, it “defines,” it never reaches the object other than in its illusory reality. On the other hand, the affective way, of which we have often declared the supremacy, enables one to grasp the object in its tangible reality. And it is by means of the image that we may fixate it.

Quote

The singular value of the image resides in the fact that it always goes beyond the known and the delimitations.

 

Wonderful.

 

Briant's discourse has set me to thinking of the linkages between the project of 'imagist' poetry, Tchalai Unger's dedication to meeting the tarot on its own terms, and Italo Calvino's quest to transcend the limiting effects of linguistics and make contact with the somewhat impenetrable Other.

 

There's a definite thread here. Definite. And the story includes a number of specifically tarological stepping stones. But I haven't quite got to grips with it. I need to a few days to do some feeling about. Perhaps I'll post the results. (If results are forthcoming, that is. The entire enterprise may be beyond me.)

 

P.S. If anyone's interested, here is a link to the tarot interpretations of Paul Christian mentioned earlier in the thread:

 

http://green-door.narod.ru/pctarot.html

 

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by devin

[_R_]

1 hour ago, devin said:

Briant's discourse has set me to thinking of the linkages between the project of 'imagist' poetry, Tchalai Unger's dedication to meeting the tarot on its own terms, and Italo Calvino's quest to transcend the limiting effects of linguistics and make contact with the somewhat impenetrable Other.

You will be pleased to know that there is a piece on Calvino due to be published in a couple of weeks, followed by some more Tchalaï.

 

[devin]

1 hour ago, _R_ said:

You will be pleased to know that there is a piece on Calvino due to be published in a couple of weeks, followed by some more Tchalaï.

Oh yes. Very pleasing news. The man has lately been increasingly gaining a rather large place in my heart. Particularly his fabulist side. What's not to love, really.