In a Perfect Tarot World

[AJ-ish/Sharyn]

would there be anything you'd do/fix/work out/create? 

 

I still grieve for the loss of the community interaction at Aeclectic Tarot.

Get over it, move on, yadayada....but in a perfect world,

 

Dear Santa, I'd like to see Cartomancy, Cult of Tarot and Here, combine. I know it would still never please everyone, nothing does, I know there are egos involved, has to be, we're human.

But wouldn't it be wonderful? They each have strengths that would be so wonderful to be sourced in one spot. 

Witchvox? Come on in too! So much information, so many interesting people, now all segregated... where is the fun in that? 

 

I made the decision to come here, this is where I'm active, this is where I post. 

But in a perfect tarot world we'd all be here, or there, and subscriptions wouldn't be so hard won, and there would be tons of active threads and with three co-owners it would be majority wins, what's to fight over... 🙂  

 

Dear Santa...

[Marigold]

35 minutes ago, AJ-ish/Sharyn said:

Dear Santa, I'd like to see Cartomancy, Cult of Tarot and Here, combine. I know it would still never please everyone, nothing does, I know there are egos involved, has to be, we're human.

But wouldn't it be wonderful? They each have strengths that would be so wonderful to be sourced in one spot. 

I understand your sentiment. I wrote to one of the moderators the other day wondering how all the different forums could get closer, and work without rivalry or jealousy. But I don't think it would be good for all the forums to merge into one. That would be a monopoly. I suggested for example a kind of bi-annual meeting - some kind of EVENT that could be organised altogether.

 

I think each Tarot forum has their own peculiarities, their own flavour, their own perfume. And each deserves its rightful place. I suggested to a person who had posted on Cult of Tarot that they join Tarot Tea & Me as there is a mentorship programme here which Cult of Tarot doesn't have, and probably never will. I posted this openly, not privately by PM.  Cult of Tarot has a slightly different focus to the one here, or on the Cartomancy forum. Each forum has something unique to offer. It would be a pity to dilute it all in one big soup. I have a feeling, but I may be wrong, that if I recommended CoT to someone here on TT&Me, that I would be scolded. I hope I'm wrong, but that's my feeling. I've for instance created two tarot "decks" over there in my private blog. One is a RWS postage stamp Tarot (a clone of the RWS but only with postage stamps) and also a "Reversed Tarot of Marseilles". I'd love to be able to link to them, for instance the Reversed meanings of the TdM, but I don't dare here. 

 

What I'd like also that linking to other Tarot forums is not forbidden or censured anywhere. I think we can all work together. Cult of Tarot is my Tarot home and always will be I think. But I like coming over here too for a different kind of conversation that one doesn't have over there, due to the nature of the beast. It's not my home, but it's a lovely place to visit and I enjoy it very much... even if the first thing I do when I switch on my computer in the morning is to head over to CoT.

 

One day, I'd love to open a forum devoted ONLY to the Tarot of Marseilles. Where no RWS or Thoth are even mentioned, except if it is context. I would hope that if I do this one day, that it will not be considered as a rival, but a welcome addition.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Marigold

[Saturn Celeste]

17 minutes ago, AJ-ish/Sharyn said:

But wouldn't it be wonderful? They each have strengths that would be so wonderful to be sourced in one spot. 

Witchvox? Come on in too! So much information, so many interesting people, now all segregated... where is the fun in that? 

Absolutely!  I would love to see a Tarot Ring.  I've often thought about it.  I did something similar with my gaming forum.  I was so lucky to be featured off the actual Elder Scroll site in an active community and it put me on the map.  We even had one of the developers active on my site!  I've thought we could have exchanges and monthly events  and a few other fun things we could do.  But sadly as you say, feelings can get in the way.  It's sad because we all have one goal, tarot.  But it's expensive to run a forum and donations really help.  If a forum does not have the money to keep it going, then it will die.  And donations means having members who can help support the forum.  And that support can create a preference for one forum over the other.  But I agree, Sharyn, it is a wonderful thought and who knows what lies ahead for forum communities.

 

Now a program like Discord where anyone from any forum can come in and chat would be really fun!  You don't have to have an account at a forum to engage in the chat.  That would be a fun consideration.

[Rose Lalonde]

Quote

would there be anything you'd do/fix/work out/create? 

Hmm... I'd create my own deck for personal use. I'm not much of an artist, and I've been short on spare time, but in a perfect world where every day is the first day of vacation, it'd be worthwhile to see what I'd come up with when I tried to narrow down everything I'd want to express into only one image per card. 

[Rodney]

1 hour ago, Rose Lalonde said:

but in a perfect world where every day is the first day of vacation

The mind boggles at the thought since the last day of vacation always seems to come way too fast. But that IS a lovely thought! I think you're my new hero!

 

Somewhat back on topic, AJ, I still haven't gotten over it, so I'd be the last person to tell you to get over it. Tarot somehow just isn't the same for me as it used to be. I don't think we need one huge site ever again because we've seen what happens when that's pulled out from under us without any warning. If there were some cooperative arrangement between the various sites though or some way one could post on other sites through one's membership in a different site, that WOULD be cool!

[Marigold]

4 hours ago, Rodney said:

I don't think we need one huge site ever again because we've seen what happens when that's pulled out from under us without any warning. 

I don't think the issue is that it may have the rug pulled suddenly. I think the issue is that one big forum doesn't allow for the nuances and the individual character of each forum that exists. Including Eclectic which I find a shame doesn't have more traffic.

 

When Starbucks with their great marketing and super duper coffee appeared on the scene, so many little Italian coffee shops and suchlike closed shop forever. When Amazon started their huge business, it put out of business so many little bookshops where one could roam in a most delightful fashion. There must be room always for individuality and unique characters. There cannot be a one thing fits all. 

 

TT&Me will always I think be the biggest tarot forum on the web. And it deserves to have this title. Little Fang has built up a very nice place here with the help of her dedicated staff. But smaller forums with their goals and "mission" are also important - we don't all want to do our shopping in a mall all the time, however nice the mall is. Sometimes it's nice to shop in the smaller or quainter or unusual shops where there is a different atmosphere and different merchandise.

 

One of the reasons that I feel more at home on Cult of Tarot for example, is the fact that it's not so "busy". Here there is so much movement, it makes my head spin sometimes. CoT is sort of more focused, there is less chit chat for example (I have nothing against chit chat). I don't need hustle and bustle all the time like on Aeclectic or here, I am in need in my present stage of my tarot life to be often in a more sedate quiet place. If the forums were all merged, the flavour of CoT would be lost. But I enjoy coming here too. The Tarot atmosphere here is full of ..... tarot.... and that's cool.

 

Aeclectic. I know its demise has been discussed many times, and I don't want to start up any polemics. I just want to tell a story. When Aeclectic was a young 'un but started growing into its adolescent stage, Kate (Solandia) came to Europe for a long holiday. She visited me in Switzerland and I showed her around my town, invited her for supper at my place. And we were down at the lake and she told me she was worried how she was going to finance the forum now that it was growing. She told me of her ideas and asked me to do a reading for her. The Tarot warned her that the decisions she was making would lead to a slow erosion, that there was a danger. I don't remember all the cards, but I do remember The Devil. I remember Kate saying "I know". She went down that road anyway in spite of this "knowing", perhaps she had changed her vision for Aeclectic, or was unable at the time to find other resources for the financing (but I believe it was her vision that had changed). But the erosion began then.... little by little, the forum changed and what happened happened. I saw it happening even before people realised it - thanks to the reading that we made, I saw very early on that Aeclectic was being very very slowly eroded. It took a long time, but when it happened I remember thinking how inevitable it all was. 

 

I am telling this story just as a reminder that decisions made even very early can affect a forum in the long term and irreversibly. Once the Wheel has been set in motion, we end up reaping what we sow.

 

I said in my previous post that I wondered if I linked to Cult of Tarot here for some reason (perhaps to point out a finer point that had been discussed over there), that I think I would be scolded for linking to another forum. I said that I wasn't sure, and that I hoped it would not be so, but this is my feeling. When I suggested to a new member on CoT that she join TT&Me for their mentoring programme.... no-one scolded me. And I liked that. Because I hate censorship. But more than that. One of the things I hate with a passion..... really with a passion.... is walls. I HATE WALLS. I hate borders, frontiers and I despise nationalism and patriotism. So if we could just not build walls in the Tarot community, it would be cool. No rivalry, no jealousy, no one trying to be "better" than the other. Each community can live together in peace and harmony. And if this is not possible, then there's something wrong with the Tarot community. 

 

And now I'm going over to Cult of Tarot to see what was posted last night while I was sleeping. See you later.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Marigold

[gregory]

I'm not aware that it isn't OK to link other forums here. I have certainly linked to posts on carto.

 

But I too prefer to have several forums for the different flavours. Carto, for instance, was set up as an ALTERNATIVE to tarot, for those into playing cards and LeNormand. They welcomed us when AT closed, but loads of refugees started to demand things that AT had had (not least a sale area.) The mods were very polite about it - but I and several others who had been welcomed in were embarrassed. 

 

I don't have the same feeling about AT that Marigold has, and I have noted MANY people - some I know in real life - who have pretty much given up on tarot as a direct result, even though I have tried to attract them here and to a few others I belong to. That is the BIG sadness about its demise - the loss of actual people from the community.

 

And BTW I hate discord nearly  as much as I hate facebook. BUT - there is nothing to stop people setting up a chatzy or something....

 

Perfect Tarot World. I realise Rodney is the only person here who will sympathise, but what I would love is tesseracted storage which would never run out. Not least for the books....

[Aoife]

15 hours ago, AJ-ish/Sharyn said:

 

I still grieve for the loss of the community interaction at Aeclectic Tarot.

 

Could you say more about this? Is it about numbers... or specific people... or range and volume of threads... or? 

For me, as the numbers rose and volume increased it got too much for me. I couldn't keep up. I also felt the sense of community changed - some significant people became absent - for differing reasons - and the community evolved into a different entity. I also struggled with the less-than-obvious boundaries.

[Marigold]

The sale area and linking to Amazon was the main thing that the Devil in the reading I did for Solandia warned about. (in response to Gregory's post) 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Marigold

[Marigold]

I was out smoking a cigarette and an idea came to me. Most of my ideas come to me while smoking a cigarette.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpuVTzeXzMY

 

As TT&Me is the place where the most action takes place so it attracts a lot of people, I think it would maybe be nice, to remove some of these boundaries and walls and frontiers between the forums, for it to have a section where people could link to posts on other forums. Sort of like "hey you've got to check out this great thread on *****", or "have you seen the section devoted to philosophy/tarot and the adam and eve myth/adventures into the Thoth (or whatever)  on *****". This would allow for the wisdoms on each tarot forum to be more fluid and flowing.

 

There. I think I'm through with this subject. I've made my point about my yearning for a more open tarot world where no-one needs passports or identity documents. Such a peaceful world that would be... and I'm talking here of the macrocosm and the microcosm. 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Marigold

[Raggydoll]

@Marigold like @gregory said - people link to other forums all the time! Gregory often shares good stuff from our friends at Carto and no one is ever upset by it. I don't think it needs a section of its own, just link to something in a thread where it is relevant. 

 

And I do want to emphasize this: we on TT&M do not compete with other forums, and there is no form of jealousy or rivalry. We have never boasted about our perks in comparison to other forums or tried to win people over. Its simply not how we do things. We do not wish to expand on the cost of others, we want everyone to thrive! In a diverse community there will be something for every person. 

 

But as far as co-operations go, then I think its just a matter of us wanting to focus on our thing and to improve according to the lovely vision that Little Fang originally had for this place. We have our own 'flavor', for sure, just like the other forums do. And we are not offended if someone likes a scoop of vanilla, with some licorice and then some chocolate, and some strawberry and... I mean - if you want to be active on every forum or just on one or two - then either way, its two thumbs up! If you feel that this place is too loud or crowded for you sometimes then we totally respect that. I am glad that you have Cult of tarot to turn to and to call your home. 

[ilweran]

I miss AT sometimes, usually when over been reading a thread there and want to ask somebody something about what they posted, but I can't. I'm also sorry I missed it's final days and that I didn't get to save some of my PM's.

 

But I'm happy with TT&M as it is. I feel that overall the good parts of AT have been carried over. I am registered with other forms, including Cult of Tarot but don't post there. Here just suits me best!

[Eric13]

I never knew AT when it was active, only now and it is good to use as research. I don't know these other forums either. I do know a person can't learn enough though so I guess they are good for learning and having friends to talk to. 

But I do know the Sun card and that it also tells to move on from the past. 

I'm saying this only in a helpful way, by the way. Sometimes we need a friend to tell us these things. 

Thank you, have a nice day. 

[DanielJUK]

I do miss AT but then worry I have rose tinted glasses on. Towards the end a lot of wonderful regular people never visited anymore and I missed a lot of people, it was probably in decline over time. I wish I had found it so much earlier then when I joined in 2011! But I do miss like Sharyn wrote that the community was in one place. I am still in touch with so many AT people and some are all in different places and will not join any other places! Everyone has found their preferred community outlet! Also some people don't want to be in any forums or even online anymore. I also have regret that some wonderfully knowledgeable people from AT vanished! I expected that some people who kept their real identity completely anon would vanish and actually most of those folk are on forums with the same usernames but some people did just just vanish from the tarot world and are uncontactable, I think that is so sad, they had such knowledge! You see multiple people posting in places like the missing AT people thread here and no one can contact them or knows them 😢 I won't ever get over AT but it was a moment in time and was glad to be part of it! But I am thankful in the final months that I connected with so many people I cared about there and got a closer off forum relationship. I think I should have done that years before! So I take from it the wonderful people I am still in contact with now.

 

There is a network with AT though, if you want to contact someone you are not directly connected with, you can contact someone you were sure were friends with them on AT and they will contact them. I love that! It warms my heart that you can still contact about 90% of the community through various places. I have reconnected with people via that method and people have contacted me in the same way. Also it warms my heart that at least once a month I still see a AT person whose name I remember join this forum ❤️ They are still finding us!

 

The community is all around the net now and it's sad it's more difficult to see your fave posters all in one place. But I am amazed how much it kept together and how many outlets from AT are successful and still going today. There is a choice of communities now and people can choose where they feel the most comfortable and it is interesting how most former ATers have one place and won't move from it! I have tried to persuade some friends to come here and they have nothing against this forum but they have fave places already and I won't go to their places 🤣

[AJ-ish/Sharyn]

thoughtful thoughts all. And I love the first day of vacation, but I always loved Mondays too! 

 

And my viewpoint is Sharyncentric... I only give myself 2-ish hours a day online and sometimes writing my blog takes up half that. I never want to be the person walking down the street thumbing a screen. So I want my goodies in one pile, saves time, gives me more ... something... practical on-line experience? So I'm not likely to go to another site and look something up, ask a question, hang about. It's just me being me.

Dear Santa, today I want there to still be a cinnamon twist donut at the beach bakery by the time we get there. 

My needs are simple. And all about Me. 

[gregory]

7 hours ago, Marigold said:

The sale area and linking to Amazon was the main thing that the Devil in the reading I did for Solandia warned about. (in response to Gregory's post) 

The sale area I referred to was where members could sell and trade decks.

 

But I'd rather have links to amazon than ads for movie merch and clothes and stuff. At least it was relevant.

[Marigold]

Thanks to everyone for hearing me out before in this thread. I'll move on now. I just wanted to say what I needed to say. Thanks also to the moderators for their kindness.

 

To get back to the topic which is really a great question. I've been thinking about this all day on and off. "In a Perfect Tarot world... there would be what?" Hmmmmm.....  and again hmmmmm.

 

And here I go again with some controversial stuff. Maybe some people will end up thinking Solandia was right to ban me from Aeclectic. But I really don't do it on purpose if anyone thinks I do. I don't wake up in the morning saying "what kind of hornet's nest can I stir up". I'm a very gentle person actually. And loving too. I like discussing and debating though. Sometimes there's a thin line between debating and argument though. Katrinka pointed that out to me once but she may not remember. 

 

In my Perfect Tarot world, the Rider Waite Smith tarot deck would not exist. I do recognise that his deck allowed the Tarot to become known in the non French-speaking world, so it has that merit. And it's a big one. But I do wish in a way that Arthur Waite had stuck to prancing around in silly robes and probably chanting weird incantations and twirling his magical wand.

 

I believe he corrupted the Tarot. It's a harsh word. I've been thinking all afternoon if I'm not being too dramatic with the word corruption. I even asked myself a few times : "Diana... aren't you exaggerating a bit here"? But have decided no. I'll keep corruption. I went to check in a few dictionaries - the process by which a word or expression is changed from its original state to one regarded as erroneous or debased.

 

However, if he had called it the "Waite Golden Dawn Card Deck" or something similar, without the word Tarot in it, I wouldn't have batted an eyelid. I love it also that this deck has allowed so many artists to express themselves. It's like one huge art gallery out there. So stunning sometimes. It's like everyone who saves up a bit of money every year, should be able to buy at least one room of the art gallery for their personal use, or look at them on the internet. Cool.

 

However, in spite of my feelings - not warm at all (euphemism) towards Aleister Crowley as a person and also my deep mistrust of Thelema and also political reasons, I don't mind at all that his Thoth tarot deck is hanging around. I recognise his genius in spite of my deep antipathy. 

 

So that would be my Perfect Tarot world.

 

(I also spoke of this corruption in the thread on Cultural Appropriation.)

 

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Marigold

[gregory]

7 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

And I do want to emphasize this: we on TT&M do not compete with other forums, and there is no form of jealousy or rivalry. We have never boasted about our perks in comparison to other forums or tried to win people over. Its simply not how we do things. We do not wish to expand on the cost of others, we want everyone to thrive! In a diverse community there will be something for every person. 

 

But as far as co-operations go, then I think its just a matter of us wanting to focus on our thing and to improve according to the lovely vision that Little Fang originally had for this place. We have our own 'flavor', for sure, just like the other forums do. And we are not offended if someone likes a scoop of vanilla, with some licorice and then some chocolate, and some strawberry and... I mean - if you want to be active on every forum or just on one or two - then either way, its two thumbs up! If you feel that this place is too loud or crowded for you sometimes then we totally respect that. I am glad that you have Cult of tarot to turn to and to call your home. 

I can't see any reason at all for any kind of deliberate co-operation between forums. ANY of us can join ANY of them. As Raggy says, we can link particularly relevant posts. But each forum is its own place. I'm not about to go around trying to link up all my friends; some would fit and some wouldn't. Little Fang has created the forum where I feel at home, and while I can drop by any of the others if I  like, I don't want them formally linked. Too complicated, too much like trying to manipulate members into joining up everywhere. Some forums fit individuals where others don't. At least two of the new ones actually make me feel uncomfortable; while I'm sure they are perfectly fine, I wouldn't want them linked to what I post here. I especially wouldn't want private areas of one open to members of others; one I belong to but have avoided posting readings simply because of other members there that I don't actually want to share personal stuff with. There are all kinds of hornet's nests up for kicking, here.

[Marigold]

You've made excellent points there Gregory. Thanks. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Marigold

[gregory]

I wasn't exactly looking to "make points" - it's just my opinion. But I don't see a multiplicity of forums as a competition, just as I don't see a variety of cuisines as a contest. But I do think on the whole fusion food is a mistake. If that makes sense to you, Marigold. Boeuf Bourgignon a la Chinois is no longer Boeuf Bourgignon.

[Saturn Celeste]

2 hours ago, gregory said:

But each forum is its own place. I'm not about to go around trying to link up all my friends; some would fit and some wouldn't. Little Fang has created the forum where I feel at home, and while I can drop by any of the others if I  like, I don't want them formally linked. Too complicated, too much like trying to manipulate members into joining up everywhere. Some forums fit individuals where others don't. At least two of the new ones actually make me feel uncomfortable; while I'm sure they are perfectly fine, I wouldn't want them linked to what I post here. I especially wouldn't want private areas of one open to members of others; one I belong to but have avoided posting readings simply because of other members there that I don't actually want to share personal stuff with. There are all kinds of hornet's nests up for kicking, here.

As altruistic as my vision is of peaceful cooperation, I do agree deeply with you Gregory.  I know there won't be peace throughout the world and I know not all forums would or should be linked.  I am thankful for the loyalty of our members who do donate to keep the place running.  As much as I do enjoy popping around to other forums, I still love coming home to this one.  Gregory, you are my Yoda. ❤️

[gregory]

Saturn - you are nuts. 

 

 

[katrinka]

There are inherent problems when places get too big.
AT was like the Facebook of Tarot. The rules weren't well-defined, there were a lot of mods with various interpretations of the rules, some bad decisions were made and Solandia was no more available than Mark Zuckerberg.

 

This forum is just right. It's busy enough not to be one of those hanging-by-a-thread places with a half dozen active posters, but it's small enough to be comfortable. YMMV, some loved AT, but a lot of us were very uncomfortable there.

And because YMMV, it's good to have alternatives. No more "One Tarot Forum To Rule Them All."

3 hours ago, Marigold said:

In my Perfect Tarot world, the Rider Waite Smith tarot deck would not exist.

In mine, it still exists, but it doesn't dominate everything.
RWS and I go way back. But I know it's flawed. I think it's kind of like a one-eyed, raggedy-looking cat who throws up on your bed sometimes. You keep it because it's your cat you've had for years and you know it well and care about it, but you know that cats are ideally supposed to have two eyes, look sleek, and not throw up on the bed. 😝

And I like the style of the art. It has a nice vintage look.

 

12 hours ago, gregory said:

Carto, for instance, was set up as an ALTERNATIVE to tarot, for those into playing cards and LeNormand.

Factoid of the day: actually it was set up as an alternative to Kapherus's old forum. Kaph was and is awesome, but he would go offline sometimes and take the forum down so things wouldn't go bad in his absence. So Cartomancy filled in the gap. But yes, Kaph's forum was an alternative to Tarot. There was a little Tarot discussion there, but it wasn't center stage. The playing cards, Lenormand, Sibillas and Kippers were the main focus.

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by katrinka

[Marigold]

47 minutes ago, katrinka said:

In mine, it still exists, but it doesn't dominate everything.
RWS and I go way back. But I know it's flawed. I think it's kind of like a one-eyed, raggedy-looking cat who throws up on your bed sometimes. You keep it because it's your cat you've had for years and you know it well and care about it, but you know that cats are ideally supposed to have two eyes, look sleek, and not throw up on the bed. 😝

That's a nice tribute to an old friend.

 

But katrinka... I don't think you realised the full implications of my Perfect World of Tarot. If the RWS deck exists in it but not as a Tarot (I don't want to execute it - as long as it doesn't call itself a Tarot it can live in this Perfect World)... then that means that there are an awful lot of other decks in this World that would also require removing that grand title from their creations. All the ones that follow the Waite system.

 

Ouch. 

 

Which would leave my Perfect Tarot World with just the Ur Tarot - the Tarot of Marseilles - and some of its cousins, and the Thoth (they are not brothers however and don't even live on different continents in my Perfect Tarot World). And thousands and thousands and thousands of lovely oracles or other kinds of card decks designed for divination. They can live wherever they like. Free to roam and make their music and splashes of colour and beauty. But not as tarots obviously. (Now Arthur, you're wondering what you did wrong ? You know darn well you silly little man.)

 

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Marigold

[katrinka]

2 hours ago, Marigold said:

 

But katrinka... I don't think you realised the full implications of my Perfect World of Tarot. If the RWS deck exists in it but not as a Tarot (I don't want to execute it - as long as it doesn't call itself a Tarot it can live in this Perfect World)... then that means that there are an awful lot of other decks in this World that would also require removing that grand title from their creations. All the ones that follow the Waite system.

That would suck, TBH.
I agree that 90% of the RWS-based decks are crap. Sturgeon was no fool. But if you get rid of everything that's 90% crap, there's not much of anything left in the world. No books, no movies, no food, etc. Humanity might be swept away in the process, too. A lot of us are no bargain. 😉

Anyway, the Thoth is based on the same ideas. I read them almost identically.
The Thoth is the KEY to the RWS. You can see exactly where Waite fudged things.