Counterfeit Decks

[fire cat pickles]

4 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

Yes, and child labor

Terrible...

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Arania said:

$4 seems awfully low for even a fake deck. Considering the vendors need to make some profit, I wonder how much did they get them for? The shop I tried to report had the decks all priced at around 15€. Which seems reasonable enough for a real deck. With $4 no one really makes any profit.

 

Regarding this, you must consider economics of scale. In the Asian apps I've just mentioned, there is a very wide variety of decks worth $3 (and even lower!) with a considerable number of favorable reviews. I honest to goodness think that they can create one deck for only $1.50 if these are printed en masse. That means that for a $4 deck, they get a tidy profit of about $2.50. If they sell 40 decks, they get $100.

 

Consider their market: Asia and I believe some South American countries too, as I do see reviews from as far as Brazil. These are countries with tens or even hundreds of millions of people. Apply the figures above and what you get is a very very lucrative trade. 

[Arania]

Yeah I get as much, I have family in the printing business and at least normal playing cards can be made for way under $1 when in mass print (probably more now due to paper prices going up). But for vendors in markets, if they buy for $3 and sell for $4 that is kind of not worth the bother. But maybe I understood it wrong and the vendors were selling them for higher.

 

I've done some research and the decks which are so dirt cheap mostly have added postage per single order, not the whole shipment, which generally brings them above $5, usually closer to 10. The only way you can get them for around $2 a piece is on Alibaba directly, when you order them in the 100s. Which is, I am sure, what the shop I found the fakes in does. But there is still added delivery charge it seems, you'd have to be logged in to be sure.

 

So I understand the profit for the original sellers, just not the re-sellers.

 

 

 

 

[Eugenie]

I could not find a more relevant topic so I will ask here: is it a bad idea to buy a printable antique deck on Etsy to print it myself? Presently I am not seeing there anything I would want but what if I do? Well, yes, maybe it is 300 years old, but someone spent a lot of efforts on finding a way to work with that deck, scanning it, then cleaning and processing the images, etc., and now someone else got hold of the images and sells them (how do I know?). Is it ethical to buy such printables? 

[Tom]

I don't know enough about certain decks to be able to tell the difference between genuine and bogus. Like the RWS deck, I'm sure there are decks that in the category of being in the Public Domain, especially very old decks. Honestly I don't believe any of my decks are counterfeit. 

[DanielJUK]

Whilse there are Public Domain RWS images, you would probably know if you got a counterfeit deck. It would most likely be extremely cheap, like $4 and it would like black and white photocopied cards or maybe with a poor range of colour 🙂 . It most likely wouldn't come with any book with it. The cards may be cut unevenly. There are all the red flags to look for in this thread but it would probably be poor quality in reproduction.

[Tom]

Well then I don't have any counterfeits.  I only more buy more expensive, pretty (well done artwork) and well illustrated Tarot decks.  No $3 decks for me.  I have seen some very poorly done RWS decks though that look like children did them in grammar school. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Tom

[gregory]

Once upon a time I was sure none of mine..... Price is a good indicator, so are sellers (ebay and amazon - and even etsy) who have MANY copies to sell. Also decks which one knows are normally only sold by their creators - like Ciro Marchetti - showing up in multiples -"new" ....... 

[akiva]

On 11/17/2023 at 12:36 PM, Eugenie said:

I could not find a more relevant topic so I will ask here: is it a bad idea to buy a printable antique deck on Etsy to print it myself? Presently I am not seeing there anything I would want but what if I do? Well, yes, maybe it is 300 years old, but someone spent a lot of efforts on finding a way to work with that deck, scanning it, then cleaning and processing the images, etc., and now someone else got hold of the images and sells them (how do I know?). Is it ethical to buy such printables? 

If the deck is over 100 years old it's public domain and free to use. Copyright can be a nightmare to navigate sometimes as a museum can take images of a 300 year old deck and they can't claim they own the rights to the deck itself. But they can claim they own rights to the images they took of the deck. Which is a grey area in its own right as you shouldn't be able to copyright something that's public domain! 😂 

 

Whether Etsy sellers have actually approached museums for commercial licensing I can't say, but I will say that most of them just trawl the British Museum and gallica.bnf.fr for decks. Which you can do yourself... And then you have free access to 100s of decks from all different eras that you can reproduce for personal use for free. The scans are usually really good (better than Etsy's) and you know for sure you're getting the best resolution to print with.

 

This makes it a bit of a problem ethically. Even though the artist is long dead and you're not stealing royalties from them, the images are hosted by the museum and they use sneaky tactics to copyright them even though the images should be free for anyone to use however they see fit (so long as PD).

Which is the side of the fence I stand on. They don't own these images. The British Museum specifically can't really claim ownership to anything, they stole so much from other countries.

 

Saying that though, the only time buying a printable deck off Etsy is worth it imo is if it's a hard to find, out of copyright historical deck, or if it's something self-made by the seller that isn't available elsewhere. Save your money and go direct to the source! 😊

[DanielJUK]

Mod Note: Whilst this is a discussion on the ethics of counterfeit decks and spotting them, it's not okay to post promoting pirated decks. As a responsible community platform, we support and value deck creators and the effort and cost they put into making their decks. We also support the tarot industry, which brings about our reason for existing. We can't support and allow promoting a criminal market, and posts that do could be removed. Some posts promoting this have been removed from the thread.

Thank you, TT&M

[Eugenie]

@akiva, thank you very much for this very detailed response. I would not even think of buying a pirated deck intentionally, it is a very bad thing to do in my book. I looked at the websites of museums and thought: finding the needed images there, downloading them in the needed quality, then processing for print and actually printing in good quality on great stock is lots of work, too. I will just buy a repro deck I need from someone reputable. 

@DanielJUK I am fully with you.

[Sar]

The cartomancy community needs to turn our backs to the practioners who asks for counterfeit decks. We need to protect the artists who still can create readable decks.

[Tom]

Who actually asks for fakes?  I would think they would keep that a secret.  Another thing to be concerned about is AI using copyrighted decks to create new cards.  

[SilverFox]

Be careful!

This store sells counterfeit decks. Shop Florice or something like that.

We wrote a complaint to the Etsy support service, but they don’t care ! )) They replied that if I am not an official representative of the company, then my complaint will not be considered.

Ok…..We wrote to Lo Scarabeo (also to the support service) - they don’t care either way ! ))

@SilverFox we removed the link to the shop. We can not know for sure if that shop is really selling counterfeit decks. Such accusations can get the forum in big trouble.

[gregory]

I've reported the Iona - that should get their attention as only 12 copies were ever printed - I sent a link to that info !

[Tom]

@gregory thank you.  I know some vendors are legitimate, like Hattie Thorne and the guy who publishes all those black cat decks.  I don't know if I mentioned this, but I though I was buying an Indy Pirate Tarot deck, but it turns out to be pirated deck (no pun intended) of an out of print Lo Scarabeo Deck.  I should have checked my collection.  Since no one seems to care I'm just stuck with it.  At least it's out of print.  I learned the hard way on Instagram to beware, if they are coming from the actual artists website then I'm sure they're legit.

[Troll]

I am looking for a deck whole year .I found Ancient Tarot of Lombardy . It is clearly replica but has two advantages most important one it is black and white and this is game changer for me. Also it is bigger and I like it better for this reason. Can I buy it ?

[Raggydoll]

8 hours ago, Troll said:

I am looking for a deck whole year .I found Ancient Tarot of Lombardy . It is clearly replica but has two advantages most important one it is black and white and this is game changer for me. Also it is bigger and I like it better for this reason. Can I buy it ?

The point of this thread is to educate and warn people about counterfeit decks, not to ease someone’s conscience for buying them. 

[Troll]

7 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

The point of this thread is to educate and warn people about counterfeit decks, not to ease someone’s conscience for buying them. 

I understand that if replicas are obvious fakes or can be obtained in any reasonable way(costing under grand is reasonable for me I can`t afford that but I accept the rules of  game)But what about all the decks from 1700,1800,1900-50? You cant read with those ,they will turn in to dust before you even shuffle them .What is considered legit RWS or Marseille deck ?Deck published by whom ?

[PathWalker]

I think ost deck images - of all types and ages - are owned by someone. The artist, the publishers, a museum in the case of very old decks which get reproduced. If you draw your own images, you own them. I believe this is what is called copyright.

 

If you agree to let someone use images that you created  or own, they pay you an amount to cover  that   - thus you do earn money on drawing or owning sought-after images.

 

Counterfeit decks are  decks produced by pirates who STOLE the images from somewhere -   so easy to do now - and reproduced them solely for their own profit,  with no payment made to the owner or creator.

 

Pirate decks are THEFT.

 

If you want to buy a reproduction of an old deck the best advise it to go direct to a supplier like Lo Scarabeo, or US Games, or another European supplier depending where yous live, and choose from the selection they currently have in print. There are ALWAYS legitimate versions of Marseille and Rider Waite in print. Some makers specialize in old decks. If you are after a particular deck then ask here, and you will get good advise.

Edited October 4, 2024 by PathWalker

[Troll]

On 8/27/2024 at 12:27 PM, SilverFox said:

Be careful!

This store sells counterfeit decks. Shop Florice or something like that.

We wrote a complaint to the Etsy support service, but they don’t care ! )) They replied that if I am not an official representative of the company, then my complaint will not be considered.

Ok…..We wrote to Lo Scarabeo (also to the support service) - they don’t care either way ! ))

@SilverFox we removed the link to the shop. We can not know for sure if that shop is really selling counterfeit decks. Such accusations can get the forum in big trouble.

Thanks for link it may lead to Tarot deck I  was looking for a year .In a  good way

[Tom]

Aren't those very old deck, like RWS, in the public domain?  Everyone publishes different versions of the original RWS and Tarot De Marseilles for precisely that reason.  I wouldn't consider it to be counterfeit unless they copied the Lo Scarabeo version exactly from that deck (same size, color, backs).  As mentioned above there are places where you can download these decks for free. I am against counterfeiting cards, but not things that are no longer copyright protected.

[DanielJUK]

This thread is going off-topic and so I have split the discussion about finding reproductions of the Ancient Tarot in Lombardy into it's own thread ⬇️

 

Let's keep this discussion about Counterfeits

[gregory]

3 hours ago, Tom said:

Aren't those very old deck, like RWS, in the public domain?  Everyone publishes different versions of the original RWS and Tarot De Marseilles for precisely that reason.  I wouldn't consider it to be counterfeit unless they copied the Lo Scarabeo version exactly from that deck (same size, color, backs).  As mentioned above there are places where you can download these decks for free. I am against counterfeiting cards, but not things that are no longer copyright protected.

 

Some are; some aren't. If a museum owns a deck and has put images of it on their website, that doesn't mean you can download and print them. They own he deck and the copyright to their images of it. Where can you download very many decks for free - I do know of one for the TdM and one for the Smith/Waite - and actually I vaguely recall one for the Vacchetta - but there really aren't many that are legit.

[Chariot]

I just went to the Amazon Uk site, and entered 'tarot deck' in the search engine.  These are the first two that came up, from a seller in China.  Seems as if the counterfeiters are learning that we want a booklet with our deck?  Take a look at that first booklet ...it's a general guide to '78 cards,' not specialised to that deck at all.  And the RWS clone has a book, but it certainly doesn't look like the original LWB I got with my deck, many moons ago.

Yet ...the prices aren't cheap.  It's a minefield....

Another dead giveaway—at least on Amazon—is the notion that the deck is a party game, family game, etc.  Red flag.



 

Edited October 5, 2024 by Chariot