Prophetic tarot VS healing tarot. Your thoughts on this?

January 29, 2020

40 minutes ago, RavenOfSummer said:

I'm the same way. Doing predictive readings has never been a goal of mine. And tarot is also a big part of my spiritual practice.

Is it needing to rationalize tarot to a wider audience, or is it the other way around? What I mean is, I agree the use of tarot has grown and become more mainstream. I think more people have realized that tarot is not ONLY for people who want to predict the future, and the people who have found the power of tarot in their own lives in different ways are sharing those experiences, and through that sharing more people with similar needs or perspectives come to tarot. Thus, the circle of people discussing tarot is an eclectic bunch, many of whom do not consider themselves fortune tellers, and of course also many who do. In other words, I'm suggesting that the group of people using and discussing tarot is just larger and more diverse than ever, and maybe it's the growth of tarot outside of fortune telling that accounts for the growth of such discussions, as opposed to one group of readers feeling a need to justify what they do to those who don't read that way.

Tarot has never been strictly for fortune telling. People played games with it in the beginning. They still do.
Then occult Tarot caught on and people started using it for meditation and whatnot. They still do that, too.
It's not that some people are doing something different with Tarot, that's always been the case.
It's the way that a lot of them blather that you "can't" predict with it.
Just because they can't doesn't mean we can't.

January 29, 2020

1 minute ago, katrinka said:

It's not that some people are doing something different with Tarot, that's always been the case.
It's the way that a lot of them blather that you "can't" predict with it.
Just because they can't doesn't mean we can't.

January 29, 2020

6 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Using the cards for meditation and the like is legit.
But just because you choose not to, doesn't man that the cards "don't allow" us to do it.[/QUOTE]

OK, this is where I get off the bus, lol.
Granted, the carnival is known for being meretricious. And I certainly wouldn't feed anyone stock cold reading lines.
But, as Todd Browning knew, sometimes the people on the midway are the good people, marginalized though they may be.
It comes down to this: are you able to divine with Tarot? Or no?

I'm afraid that much of the instructional material available these days isn't helpful. And so we get this "Tarot cannot predict the future" trope - hogwash.

The fact is, a lot of people have lost sight of how to read cards because of that.
It takes a good while - you're learning a language - but it's doable.

I started reading runes in the early 90's. And I find them to be excellent for predictive reading (on the condition that one stays away from that Ralph Blum stuff.) Wealth, fertility, need, etc....these are all still relevant. And very predictive, if

i love the Germanic mindset on fortunetelling. Very direct, no-nonsense. Runes, Lenormand, Kippers...all good. You do you. Just saying I'm doing me over here, and it works. 😉

I don't know how to split the quotes on this forum to respond, so I will just use spaces to separate...

- I was not meaning "allow" like giving us permission...I think I was meaning to say enable(?)..like the cards enable us to do stuff

- and I use the carnival reference mostly to distinguish the charlatans from the legit practitioners. I definitely realize, and agree that many people in that situation are legit artists in the field. And I also agree that it is like wading through a huge see of shyte to find legit instruction, at least in print/digital. I think this is the case in all endeavors though. It IS a language, and a culture, and a history, and like many other disciplines, I think people are sometimes lead to skip over these elements to get right to "doing it" via the poor instruction.

- RE: Runes. I hear ya about the Ralph Blum stuff...and it is funny that that was the first book I got way back in 1981 or so. I remember reading it and thinking how weird it was that it was so "Christian". But I also have read lots of Thorsson - who a lot of people like, and a lot of people dislike, and Fitch...I think that as with any other activity, you have to sift through and relate to what speaks to you the loudest. I think that dealing with the bad tuff helps educate you about the history and culture

- I have no problem with how anyone uses and lives in the worlds that they create for themselves, and I hope I did not come off as being judgmental, because that was not my intention. I actually have a lot of respect for people who gain enough knowledge and confidence to do readings as a job, because to me, that is taking on a pretty big amount of responsibility. People are putting their trust in you about often times big decisions in their lives...to me, that is a major jump of self confidence and faith that I probably never will attain...

January 29, 2020

@gregory intetersting example but can't help feeling considering the outcome the initial reading did not accurately predict the future, despite consensus about it's significance. the reading said she would fail the exams, but she didn't. the reading wasn't accurate. not to say it didn't serve the purpose of inspiring the daughter to study harder in a very useful / productive / inspiring way, which perhaps in the greater sense explains WHY. but since this discussion concerns personal metaphysical beliefs it's not like we need to agree.

January 29, 2020

9 minutes ago, iofthebeholder said:

intetersting example but can't help feeling considering the outcome the initial reading did not accurately predict the future, despite consensus about it's significance. the reading said she would fail the exams, but she didn't. the reading wasn't accurate. not to say it didn't serve the purpose of inspiring the daughter to study harder in a very useful / productive / inspiring way, which perhaps in the greater sense explains WHY. but since this discussion concerns personal metaphysical beliefs it's not like we need to agree.

This is actually a very good point. Perhaps it's a good example of why one's method should be flexible enough to deliver a negatively or positively weighted 'maybe.'

January 29, 2020

If the girl had carried on as she was at the time of the reading she would have failed.

She took action because of the reading. What is the point of a reading if it just lays out exactly what is going to happen - why would you need to know, if there's nothing you could do. As katrinka said - don't get on the plane and then you won't die when it crashes. But you had the ticket, got the reading and decided flying wasn't a great idea. If you had got on the plane - which you were going to do - you would have died along with everyone else.

2 hours ago, devin said:

It's not grammar I'm worried about, it's civilisation. Repent!

Shan't. Civilisation doesn't care how I choose to capitalise.

January 29, 2020

2 hours ago, katrinka said:

Tarot has never been strictly for fortune telling. People played games with it in the beginning. They still do.
Then occult Tarot caught on and people started using it for meditation and whatnot. They still do that, too.
It's not that some people are doing something different with Tarot, that's always been the case.
It's the way that a lot of them blather that you "can't" predict with it.
Just because they can't doesn't mean we can't.

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that the usages are new, but more that it seems like the popularity and knowledge of different uses might ebb and flow over time, thus leading to the observation of what might be called the "trends" referenced in the post I was responding too. But I didn't realize we were discussing people who are saying what other people can and can't do with tarot. I was just trying to make the point that there are a plethora of different perspectives on tarot that can be found out there.

January 29, 2020

16 hours ago, katrinka said:

Another contributing factor is people who get a smattering of knowledge and decide they're ready to "teach". It's epidemic, we've all seen it. Newcomers who say "I read six books and I have some crystals and stuff so I'm going to do youtube tutorials!"

@katrinka I read all the posts and I did agree with many things you said.

I just wanted to comment this specific part, as I feel concerned (i might be one of those people).

There is a thing that bothers me with this kind of speech. When you start something, not only tarot, it is hard to feel legitimate. We're always questioning ourselves. "Am I doing the good way?" "Am I right?" etc. But the question is when to start then? Should you hide yourself until you have 10 years of experience ?

Couple of months ago, I wanted to sign up to some websites as a tarot reader and giving readings FOR FREE to help me practice. I couldn't even apply as most the websites made clear that they don't accept young readers at all.

I do understand their reasons, but in general, If you don't try, when are you gonna get the practice? Is it that bad to be not accurate if you don't make people pay?

I do also understand that what is bothering you is that newcomers wants to "Teach" and already go on Youtube.

Maybe by "teaching" you could see it more as "sharing". And a newcomer or an older are BOTH legitimate to share what they know about tarot.

As an example, I do prefer sometimes videos from beginners as they would explain in a simpler and clearer way things. I get helpful informations because we're at the same stage of learning and they're not using vocabulary too complex for me.

Maybe they're not perfect, they might say not accurate things. But doesn't matter because you don't have to be an expert to be on youtube (unless you say you are).

I DO like discussing with people that have more experience. I have a strong respect for years of work involve, and I'm more than open to hear any advices to improve.

However, too often I feel they put that "newcomers" vibe on me. Which make me doubt even more.

I would prefer that we supports newbies with their imperfections, and pushing them to try more (even in public or on the internet).

This is just a thought. I hope no one take offence.

(and i also know katrinka that you were talking about people that are kind of a fraud, but I wanted to remind that some newcomers aims honesty with their videos)

Edited January 29, 2020 by theholysticvagabond

January 29, 2020

18 minutes ago, theholysticvagabond said:

@katrinka I read all the posts and I did agree with many things you said.

I just wanted to comment this specific part, as I feel concerned (i might be one of those people).

There is a thing that bothers me with this kind of speech. When you start something, not only tarot, it is hard to feel legitimate. We're always questioning ourselves. "Am I doing the good way?" "Am I right?" etc. But the question is when to start then? Should you hide yourself until you have 10 years of experience ?

Couple of months ago, I wanted to sign up to some websites as a tarot reader and giving readings FOR FREE to help me practice. I couldn't even apply as most the websites made clear that they don't accept young readers at all.

I do understand their reasons, but in general, If you don't try, when are you gonna get the practice? Is it that bad to be not accurate if you don't make people pay?

I do also understand that what is bothering you is that newcomers wants to "Teach" and already go on Youtube.

Maybe by "teaching" you could see it more as "sharing". And a newcomer or an older are BOTH legitimate to share what they know about tarot.

As an example, I do prefer sometimes videos from beginners as they would explain in a simpler and clearer way things. I get helpful informations because we're at the same stage of learning and they're not using vocabulary too complex for me.

Maybe they're not perfect, they might say not accurate things. But doesn't matter because you don't have to be an expert to be on youtube (unless you say you are).

I DO like discussing with people that have more experience. I have a strong respect for years of work involve, and I'm more than open to hear any advices to improve.

However, too often I feel they put that "newcomers" vibe on me. Which make me doubt even more.

I would prefer that we supports newbies with their imperfections, and pushing them to try more (even in public or on the internet).

This is just a thought. I hope no one take offence.

(and i also know katrina that you were talking about people that are kind of a fraud, but I wanted to remind that some newcomers aims honesty with their videos)

I really loved this @theholysticvagabond, it is becoming quite clear that you and I see things very much the same. I have a similar story to yours, I was coming out of a very strict religious mindset from upbringing, and I was learning about all these occult things, and then through a speaker I saw on GaiaTV I just immediately felt drawn to Tarot and felt this calling like "This will bring me into a practice and a community that will help me find my new path", so I dove in and got a deck and started studying and then found this place. But that's it, other than that this is a completely new world to me, and what I found when I got here is that there appears to be a very longstanding and firmly in place tradition around card reading. It almost strikes me as though there's becoming a rift between the "traditional card readers" who have already built a rich foundation full of things they have had passed down from the readers of old, and this new generation of people who want to read Tarot sort of... "freestyle" or... "intuitively". And no it's not that simple.

For me though... I think it may be the same old story we've seen play out in other areas. Some of these new ideas about Tarot may be the way of the future, but I think that the newer generation of readers would do well to not JUST listen to each other, but also to seek out the resources and teachings that card reading sets it's foundations on. And on the flip side, some of the people who still see things in the traditional way might benefit from being a little less rigid. But isn't that how change always goes? The older generation fighting for the tried and true methods they have known forever, while the younger generation sees some potential that they have trouble seeing?

All I know is I don't want to be some naive dreamer who thinks he can read Tarot because he watched a few youtube videos and got a deck of cards. That's why I've put my readings on hold while I read books and try to get a better handle on what I even want to USE card reading for. Anyway... I may have gone on too long, just... some thoughts that came out after reading your post.

January 29, 2020

You can definitely combine multiple approaches. I do a little bit of everything myself 😁 I have the traditional background but I’m very much also an intuitive reader and a “freestyler”. I have no idea what generation you would have me count as @Symph I think that perhaps most of us transcend those niches. We have plenty of senior readers that are really eclectic, just as we have lots of young readers that feel drawn to traditional methods and historical decks. I think very few of us fall into one category only. I honestly do not feel that there is a “them vs us” situation. My closest tarot friends all have their own style and I have never felt the need to conform. I have also never felt that people are being looked at differently because of their age. The thing that tend to bug people is when really new (but not necessarily young) readers start charging money or tries to get famous before actually making sure that they are good at what they do. That’s really not tied to any generations or ages though. Old people can be bad readers too 😉

January 29, 2020

23 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

You can definitely combine multiple approaches. I do a little bit of everything myself 😁 I have the traditional background but I’m very much also an intuitive reader and a “freestyler”. I have no idea what generation you would have me count as @Symph I think that perhaps most of us transcend those niches. We have plenty of senior readers that are really eclectic, just as we have lots of young readers that feel drawn to traditional methods and historical decks. I think very few of us fall into one category only. I honestly do not feel that there is a “them vs us” situation. My closest tarot friends all have their own style and I have never felt the need to conform. I have also never felt that people are being looked at differently because of their age. The thing that tend to bug people is when really new (but not necessarily young) readers start charging money or tries to get famous before actually making sure that they are good at what they do. That’s really not tied to any generations or ages though. Old people can be bad readers too 😉

You know I felt weird after pressing send cause I didn't want to like... sound overly black and white or divisive that's why I said it's definitely not as simple as I made it sound. I've just seen... a few people express frustration at the new wave of youtube readers who jump in without seeming to know what they're doing or having respect for the traditions of the craft. That definitely is not enough evidence to say there is a "rift" or anything, so yeah you're right I didn't mean to give the wrong impression. I think my main point is just that I definitely do want to make sure that I'm doing this for real, and that I'm aware of what's come before me, as opposed to just "Well look at youtube! Anyone can read cards so I guess that means I can too!"

But yeah I shouldn't over generalize like that, thanks for your input 🙂

January 29, 2020

Does tarot for fortune-telling and “self-development/analytic/for healing purposes” need to be mutually exclusive? If the cards cannot tell you something tangible, how can they advise on healing? If they cannot provide information on situations what can be analysed?

If tarot is a mirror of our world, then it must mirror cause and effect. Consequently, a future tangent will often be visible, and how can we read if we ignore that.

Whether cards or palmistry, we are considering mixtures of past, present and future. We cannot ignore one part of that trinity because they're not separate. They’re interwoven. What we do with that (heal, discuss) can only be done after the read.

For disclosure, I have always been a reader aligned to the fortune-telling side. I know no other. Free will exists, but it’s not omnipotent — it is also not equal in life and situations. There was a reason the great astrologers advised that the apprentice to mind a person’s status and position.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Guest

January 29, 2020

1 hour ago, Symph said:

I really loved this @theholysticvagabond, it is becoming quite clear that you and I see things very much the same. I have a similar story to yours, I was coming out of a very strict religious mindset from upbringing, and I was learning about all these occult things, and then through a speaker I saw on GaiaTV I just immediately felt drawn to Tarot and felt this calling like "This will bring me into a practice and a community that will help me find my new path", so I dove in and got a deck and started studying and then found this place. But that's it, other than that this is a completely new world to me, and what I found when I got here is that there appears to be a very longstanding and firmly in place tradition around card reading. It almost strikes me as though there's becoming a rift between the "traditional card readers" who have already built a rich foundation full of things they have had passed down from the readers of old, and this new generation of people who want to read Tarot sort of... "freestyle" or... "intuitively". And no it's not that simple.

For me though... I think it may be the same old story we've seen play out in other areas. Some of these new ideas about Tarot may be the way of the future, but I think that the newer generation of readers would do well to not JUST listen to each other, but also to seek out the resources and teachings that card reading sets it's foundations on. And on the flip side, some of the people who still see things in the traditional way might benefit from being a little less rigid. But isn't that how change always goes? The older generation fighting for the tried and true methods they have known forever, while the younger generation sees some potential that they have trouble seeing?

All I know is I don't want to be some naive dreamer who thinks he can read Tarot because he watched a few youtube videos and got a deck of cards. That's why I've put my readings on hold while I read books and try to get a better handle on what I even want to USE card reading for. Anyway... I may have gone on too long, just... some thoughts that came out after reading your post.

@Symph I just have to say.. yup! (as always when i read your posts haha)

1 hour ago, Raggydoll said:

You can definitely combine multiple approaches. I do a little bit of everything myself 😁 I have the traditional background but I’m very much also an intuitive reader and a “freestyler”. I have no idea what generation you would have me count as @Symph I think that perhaps most of us transcend those niches. We have plenty of senior readers that are really eclectic, just as we have lots of young readers that feel drawn to traditional methods and historical decks. I think very few of us fall into one category only. I honestly do not feel that there is a “them vs us” situation. My closest tarot friends all have their own style and I have never felt the need to conform. I have also never felt that people are being looked at differently because of their age. The thing that tend to bug people is when really new (but not necessarily young) readers start charging money or tries to get famous before actually making sure that they are good at what they do. That’s really not tied to any generations or ages though. Old people can be bad readers too 😉

@Raggydoll Of course, we're all overlapping in our approaches. Tarot and humans in general are so complex, we can point out tendencies but in the real facts, things are way more blurry.

Edited January 29, 2020 by theholysticvagabond

January 29, 2020

11 hours ago, katrinka said:

Have you ever done "If I do/if I don't" type readings? A reading on what will happen if you move this year, and one on what will happen if you stay? Or what will happen if you quit your job and try to start your own business, vs. if you wait?
You have a lot of possible futures, in a way. A lot of things are up to you, some aren't.
As for the "65% chance of rain", yes, if the cards are hinting at something, I suppose that's a good way of saying it. But sometimes the cards are adamant: It's going to rain. A LOT.

Yes, the "if x, if y" readings are usually my preference for future-predicting readings. I do agree that some things are out of your hands. If you've landed in a particularly bad situation, for example, sometimes both x and y will lead to turmoil and there's no way to magic yourself out of it. Or sometimes mental illness is a factor and it's going to continue influencing things no matter which path you choose. Generally the things I've found were inevitable are things that are natural consequences of how things have been shaping up in the present (back to seeing it as a trajectory), not seemingly unconnected events - but even after a fair amount of practice, I know there's still plenty for me to learn. I'm willing to change my tune!

I also have yet to give Lenormand a try, I'll admit that the system didn't particularly appeal to me so I've been giving it a berth, but it hadn't occurred to me it could strengthen my tarot skills - I'll be sure to give it (and kippers, etc) a closer look.

11 hours ago, katrinka said:

Another contributing factor is people who get a smattering of knowledge and decide they're ready to "teach". It's epidemic, we've all seen it. Newcomers who say "I read six books and I have some crystals and stuff so I'm going to do youtube tutorials!"

But the thing is, they haven't achieved any degree of accuracy. So they find ways not to be wrong. They don't predict. And if someone calls them out for a bombed reading, they say "You must have changed it with Free Will(TM)!"

Alternately, they just do cold readings: "You're not living up to your full potential," "You're sometimes misunderstood by the people around you," etc.

That's a good point, and it occurs to me that if a fairly significant portion of current tarot practitioners are relative newcomers, even if they have the skills to predict the future they might not have full confidence in it, and might be more likely to downplay that aspect to their audience (clients, blog readers, etc.) - which could also explain why with the surge of popularity, a lot of emphasis has shifted away from fortune-telling.

1 hour ago, RavenOfSummer said:

I'm the same way. Doing predictive readings has never been a goal of mine. And tarot is also a big part of my spiritual practice.

Is it needing to rationalize tarot to a wider audience, or is it the other way around? What I mean is, I agree the use of tarot has grown and become more mainstream. I think more people have realized that tarot is not ONLY for people who want to predict the future, and the people who have found the power of tarot in their own lives in different ways are sharing those experiences, and through that sharing more people with similar needs or perspectives come to tarot. Thus, the circle of people discussing tarot is an eclectic bunch, many of whom do not consider themselves fortune tellers, and of course also many who do. In other words, I'm suggesting that the group of people using and discussing tarot is just larger and more diverse than ever, and maybe it's the growth of tarot outside of fortune telling that accounts for the growth of such discussions, as opposed to one group of readers feeling a need to justify what they do to those who don't read that way.

That's true, I think it's a bit of both. But I think it's hard to overestimate how powerful bloggers and influencers can be in this era, and the content they produce is shaped by what they think will be popular, liked, and shared (at least the popular ones, because becoming popular requires some awareness of audience). And I'll often see posts or graphics where it seems like the authors are trying to appeal to an audience in the very broad self-help area, using language from that market. "Unlock your potential through the psychological insights of tarot" and "Your path to personal wellness through the major arcana" and such (I don't mean to reference anyone specific, I've seen a dozen variations of those phrases). And that seems to be a successful strategy, and certainly one that resonates with many people. From what I've read, self-help has long been a powerhouse in publishing, and I think its audience is still larger than the spirituality/metaphysical crowd.

So yes, a wider audience has come into tarot, bringing more diverse perspectives into it, and the content they generate is going to reflect that. But on their own, you would expect them to just balance out other perspectives on tarot, making a fairly equal distribution, whereas from my perspective "personal wellness, not fortune-telling" has been an extremely pronounced trend, and I think there must be something driving it besides added diversity. Though maybe it just ultimately resonates with more people at this point in time, or maybe it's to do with that lack of confidence from newer readers.

Also I want to clarify that although it might be cynical to think marketing is responsible for those trends, I don't mean to criticize anyone. I know a lot of the wellness crowd genuinely see that as the best use for tarot and are sharing that in good faith (and at certain times in my life, that kind of personal insight has been more important to me than other aspects), and there's nothing wrong with trying to appeal to a larger demographic even if they are intentionally shifting their focus. It's cool that tarot can mean different things for different people, and the popularity boom has made it easier for some amazing new decks to emerge, so I'm happy at any rate.

January 29, 2020

5 minutes ago, jdusk said:

Also I want to clarify that although it might be cynical to think marketing is responsible for those trends, I don't mean to criticize anyone. I know a lot of the wellness crowd genuinely see that as the best use for tarot and are sharing that in good faith (and at certain times in my life, that kind of personal insight has been more important to me than other aspects), and there's nothing wrong with trying to appeal to a larger demographic even if they are intentionally shifting their focus. It's cool that tarot can mean different things for different people, and the popularity boom has made it easier for some amazing new decks to emerge, so I'm happy at any rate.

I really like your conclusion, it is beautiful !

January 29, 2020

It's fascinating to see the different strands and ideas, and where they all cross over...

If I had to explain what I do with the cards, I don't think it would be either prophetic or healing, but somewhere in the middle. If someone asks me to read on future events, I normally explain that I don't feel confident that the cards can reveal things you might call random occurrences: interjections from the universe, that we couldn't anticipate. On the other hand, I absolutely agree that they can show us the shape of likely future events that are outcomes of our lives and the influences we (or those around us) bring to bear. I often feel that the information that comes from (or through, depending on your preference) the cards is from the perspective of someone who has perfect clarity of vision, and understands all the people involved, and therefore can predict both their actions and the effects that result from them. This is, to me, why I don't see a clash with the concept of free will: it is a projection, rather than a viewing of the future.

That could certainly be called fortune telling, but isn't what I would think of as prophetic... although I accept that many things are connected in all manner of subtle ways, and it may well be possible to explore more events that appear to be completely random from a human perspective, but from the Universe's, are not. I suspect being able to read about things like this is partly a matter of acceptance and belief; for me, I need at least an attempted framework to understand seemingly impossible things, rather than working on pure faith, and perhaps that limits me... but I'm coming to accept that this side can be pushed further, and that acceptance is what is allowing me to push it further... if that makes sense!

As for healing, I'm not sure that's quite what I try to achieve either, although it may be a side-effect in some cases. Normally what I'm asked about are dilemmas, problems and difficult situations, where the sitter no longer has confidence in their own judgement. My goal isn't so much healing, as bringing clarity. How you approach such questions rotates around which spread you construct (or use), and for me, Tarot is about choosing positions and interpreting the cards to help them to see through the confusion and find the source of their concerns, in order to come to their own resolution.

As ever, I make no implication that anyone else is 'wrong'; this is just my understanding of what Tarot does (for me), and I know it will develop much further over future years. When it comes to people leaping in before they're ready... I don't feel that anyone else has the right to dictate when another is ready for that step, because being ready will look different in people with different approaches (some entirely intuitive, some deeply traditional... etc.). I do think, though, that the onus is on the person (no, not aimed at anyone! ) to decide whether they feel they have developed their own understanding far enough to have confidence in their position. Could you explain what you feel you are achieving, in a way that makes sense to others? Do you know why you're doing it? Do you know what it is that you can 'see', and what you cannot, or will not? If yes to all, then you probably do indeed have something to offer. If people get confused by those sorts of questions, then perhaps they need to consider letting the Tarot seep into them a little longer, until they feel more comfortably settled. To some of you here I'm probably still a beginner, but it was when I got past that point of building my own understanding that I felt confident starting to teach.

January 29, 2020

1 hour ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Does tarot for fortune-telling and “self-development/analytic/for healing purposes” need to be mutually exclusive? If the cards cannot tell you something tangible, how can they advise on healing? If they cannot provide information on situations what can be analysed?

If tarot is a mirror of our world, then it must mirror cause and effect. Consequently, a future tangent will often be visible, and how can we read if we ignore that.

Whether cards or palmistry, we are considering mixtures of past, present and future. We cannot ignore one part of that trinity because they're not separate. They’re interwoven. What we do with that (heal, discuss) can only be done after the read.

For disclosure, I have always been a reader aligned to the fortune-telling side. I know no other. Free will exists, but it’s not omnipotent — it is also not equal in life and situations. There was a reason the great astrologers advised that the apprentice to mind a person’s status and position.

This. Every word of it.
And that last bit especially. A rich person might get their traffic tickets "fixed" if they get them at all, even though they can easily afford them. A poor person can't get anything "fixed" and may well have to do without electricity and running water in order to pay a ticket - it's that or sit it out in jail and lose their job. And these days in the US, a Person Of Color risks getting shot and killed if they're pulled over, no matter their financial status. Free will is certainly NOT equal.

3 hours ago, theholysticvagabond said:

but in general, If you don't try, when are you gonna get the practice? Is it that bad to be not accurate if you don't make people pay?

The world is full of practice opportunities. Yourself, people you know IRL, people online at places like this.
There were people learning to read before the internet even existed, obviously. It's doable.

Though I don't know what kind of readers that site expected to get for no pay. I certainly wouldn't work free unless it was for a worthy charitable cause.

Quote

I do also understand that what is bothering you is that newcomers wants to "Teach" and already go on Youtube.

Maybe by "teaching" you could see it more as "sharing". And a newcomer or an older are BOTH legitimate to share what they know about tarot.

Sharing is fine, and yes, there's no issue doing it on youtube - it's the presentation.
It's one thing to be very clear that you've only been at it a couple of years, or a few months, or whatever, and that you don't have it down yet. I think videos like that could be quite popular. Youtube isn't just for instruction, there's actually very little worthwhile content of that kind on any subject. I've whiled away a lot of hours watching people do things like color their hair. Sometimes it turns out great, sometimes it looks bad, in some of cases chunks of it fell out - eep! But the thing is, they're not presenting themselves as teachers, hairdressers, or experts of any kind. It's more of a "Come watch me do this!" thing. It's honest. People watch that stuff. Other people make reaction videos abut it, and those can be fun, too.

So yes - videos about stuff along the way as you're learning are fine, but I'm not really seeing anybody doing that with card reading. People try to come off like Moses coming down from the mountain - only with a lot of half-baked ideas. Then other people who are even newer to the cards get all kinds of wrong ideas. It's a huge mess.

Edited January 29, 2020 by katrinka

January 29, 2020

1 hour ago, jdusk said:

That's a good point, and it occurs to me that if a fairly significant portion of current tarot practitioners are relative newcomers, even if they have the skills to predict the future they might not have full confidence in it, and might be more likely to downplay that aspect to their audience (clients, blog readers, etc.) - which could also explain why with the surge of popularity, a lot of emphasis has shifted away from fortune-telling.

Maybe, in some cases. But there are some hack readers out there doing predictive reading videos, too.
One in particular springs to mind. She was a student of a known and noted reader, but she never quite got the hang of it And she's been at it for years now, but she's obviously been more concerned with keeping her name and face out there than learning the cards. She never let anything like lack of skill stop her, though. Her videos are actually fairly popular, though cringe-worthy to those of us who can see the reading going off the rails. Newcomers can't see that, they only see a nice manicure and a lady who must be an expert because she has a youtube channel and a ton of videos.

You know those readings bomb left and right, but you never hear of it. It's not like she's going to tell anyone.

Edited January 29, 2020 by katrinka

January 29, 2020

27 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Sharing is fine, and yes, there's no issue doing it on youtube - it's the presentation.
It's one thing to be very clear that you've only been at it a couple of years, or a few months, or whatever, and that you don't have it down yet. I think videos like that could be quite popular. Youtube isn't just for instruction, there's actually very little worthwhile content of that kind on any subject. I've whiled away a lot of hours watching people do things like color their hair. Sometimes it turns out great, sometimes it looks bad, in some of cases chunks of it fell out - eep! But the thing is, they're not presenting themselves as teachers or experts of any kind. It's more of a "Come watch me do this!" thing. It's honest. People watch that stuff. Other people make reaction videos abut it, and those can be fun, too.

So yes - videos about stuff along the way as you're learning are fine, but I'm not really seeing anybody doing that with card reading. People try to come off like Moses coming down from the mountain - only with a lot of half-baked ideas. Then other people who are even newer to the cards get all kinds of wrong ideas. It's a huge mess.

I do know what you speak of Katrinka, it can be very frustrating seeing someone who is cleeeeearly just giving cold readings, but touting themselves as "the oracle" and acting like "hey don't get mad at me! I'm just saying what I'm guided to say!". For the most part I find it very obvious when this is what's going on, but people who are less aware of the legitimacy of Tarot reading could think the entire practice is questionable, and I suppose truly gullible people could wind up following a lot of bad advice.

January 29, 2020

25 minutes ago, Symph said:

I do know what you speak of Katrinka, it can be very frustrating seeing someone who is cleeeeearly just giving cold readings, but touting themselves as "the oracle" and acting like "hey don't get mad at me! I'm just saying what I'm guided to say!". For the most part I find it very obvious when this is what's going on, but people who are less aware of the legitimacy of Tarot reading could think the entire practice is questionable, and I suppose truly gullible people could wind up following a lot of bad advice.

Yes.
And virtually everyone is "truly gullible" when they first start. It's the nature of the subject.
People who set out to learn cooking, or dog training, or any number of other subjects usually have SOME experience and/or observations under their belt already. But most of us come to card reading with little or none of that.

January 30, 2020

6 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

If tarot is a mirror of our world, then it must mirror cause and effect. Consequently, a future tangent will often be visible, and how can we read if we ignore that.

this is very cool...might steal for my sig...

January 30, 2020

22 hours ago, gregory said:

If the girl had carried on as she was at the time of the reading she would have failed.

She took action because of the reading. What is the point of a reading if it just lays out exactly what is going to happen - why would you need to know, if there's nothing you could do. As katrinka said - don't get on the plane and then you won't die when it crashes. But you had the ticket, got the reading and decided flying wasn't a great idea. If you had got on the plane - which you were going to do - you would have died along with everyone else.

Yeah, I understand. Still, if some things are almost set in stone, while others can be influenced, I think a strong 'no' from the cards should indicate the former.

Of course, much of this comes down to how we assume the tarot works. A popular idea is that the cards tap into the probabilities inherent in the current moment. This makes sense. On the other hand, developments in physics (and parapsychology) strongly hint that effects may in fact also flow backwards in time (retro-causality). So the cards could be picking up on future events that have already, um, happened. This wouldn't necessarily contradict free-will as the outcome could very well have been arrived at by a long series of freely chosen actions. But I'm not sure how this fits with the cards giving a 'maybe,' which, in my experience, they often do.

Then again, I did go through a long patch of successfully predicting the outcome of rugby matches. And I'm not sure how preexisting probabilities could have a large effect on outcome when two teams are relatively evenly matched - the decisive factors being the bounce of balls, on field injuries, players standing out of position, and other such happenings. (For honesty's sake, I should mention that my predictive run ended with a total failure.)

Now, on to the merits of fortune-telling and an external, as opposed to psychological or self-help, focus when reading cards:

We human beings are not disembodied spirits or minds - we exist within a physical context and in a certain period of time. This unavoidably means that we are a part of a vast and hierarchical chain of shifting and interlocking structures (geographic, social, etc.) that influence our lives for better or worse. Thus, in a particular place at a particular time, certain actions will be automatically auspicious and others will be automatically inauspicious. To know where you are and how to act appropriately/responsibly is powerful. This is fortune-telling's speciality.

So why ignore all of the above and focus solely on internal factors?

Besides, most readings also give a degree of advice, even if this is often implicit or takes a little extra work to dig out.

Well, that's my current thinking, anyway.

22 hours ago, gregory said:

Shan't. Civilisation doesn't care how I choose to capitalise.

I hope you know this was one of my ill-aimed jokes. You're a trooper. (That being said, I do fear for civilisation.)

Edited January 30, 2020 by devin

January 30, 2020

So maybe the split is more between internally and externally focused readers? Divination of the self vs. divination of the world. I dunno.

January 30, 2020

1 hour ago, devin said:

So maybe the split is more between internally and externally focused readers? Divination of the self vs. divination of the world. I dunno.

I’m thinking I need more coffee to understand what you just said 😅

January 30, 2020

6 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

I’m thinking I need more coffee to understand what you just said 😅

:lol:

But yes, I think that's pretty much what I was saying as well. Maybe. :wink:

Prophetic tarot VS healing tarot. Your thoughts on this?

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