Symbols in the Tarot

[DrDunbar]

Greetings folks!

 

I'm in the process of creating my own tarot deck, and as a result, I am getting into the fine details of each tarot card from the Smith-Waite deck. Naturally, the internet provides me with a ton of information, even too much at times. There are the occasional instances where I have questions about something specific that I see on a tarot card and when I look it up online, I find that there is more than one answer or opinion. While I understand that the tarot can be seen and interpreted in many ways, some of the imagery is obviously meant to be more concrete: After all, if something looks like a sword then it's probably a sword, right? I would love your input on some things.

 

Let's start with The Magician Card. What exactly is the magician holding up in his right hand? Some say a scroll (probably the Torah). I also read that it is a double-sided white "magic wand" of some sort. I don't think Smith or Waite ever explained the details of each card somewhere, right? So what IS the magician holding?

 

Thanks! 

[Raggydoll]

He’s holding a wand! 
 

“In the Magician's right hand is a wand raised towards heaven, while the left hand is pointing to the earth.“

 

Quote from the Pictorial key to tarot by Waite himself. Can be read for free here:

 

https://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/index.htm

 

Since the RWS largely follows the golden dawn tradition you would likely enjoy reading the books by Paul Foster Case. He’s more straightforward and in depth on the symbolism. Waite was deliberately obscure on certain things, supposedly because he wanted to honor sacred vows but likely also because of elitism. 

 

 

[Raggydoll]

I would also like to say that the main thing is to understand the gist of each card, and then the details will start to make sense. This will

allow you to create your own concept that still remains true to the core meaning of the RWS tradition  (I gather that this is what you want, unless you’re doing a RWS clone?) 

[LogicalHue]

SOME of the specific imagery in the RWS is covered in the Pictorial Key, but SO much is left out. And sometimes it even says something about something that's "in the card" but isn't in the card.

 

I'm having the same issues while trying to study up on the symbolism in the RWS images. I was looking at the court cards last night and what does the King of Pentacles have his foot on? A dragon head? For the most part with the minor cards the book says something along the lines of "interpret the details as you will, they're just there to add depth for you to ponder".

 

The thing is, no one really knows if it isn't in the Pictorial Key. Which is maddening. The Pictorial Key is also very difficult to read, I even posted somewhere about starting a study group but I wasn't responded to.

 

Anyway, happy to muse and chit-chat about the details! Its a tough thing to study alone. I keep bugging my roommate about things, and he has no real interest in Tarot. 😅

[Raggydoll]

26 minutes ago, LogicalHue said:

SOME of the specific imagery in the RWS is covered in the Pictorial Key, but SO much is left out. And sometimes it even says something about something that's "in the card" but isn't in the card.

 

I'm having the same issues while trying to study up on the symbolism in the RWS images. I was looking at the court cards last night and what does the King of Pentacles have his foot on? A dragon head? For the most part with the minor cards the book says something along the lines of "interpret the details as you will, they're just there to add depth for you to ponder".

 

The thing is, no one really knows if it isn't in the Pictorial Key. Which is maddening. The Pictorial Key is also very difficult to read, I even posted somewhere about starting a study group but I wasn't responded to.

 

Anyway, happy to muse and chit-chat about the details! Its a tough thing to study alone. I keep bugging my roommate about things, and he has no real interest in Tarot. 😅

Were you not around for the great era of the AT forum? I don't think there's any little detail in the RWS that hasn't been discussed there 😁Here's two you may enjoy, regarding the king of pentacles: https://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=87541

https://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=57602 Not sure if you'll get any definite answers regarding though 

 

Here is the link to the entire RWS subforum where they discussed symbolism etc :

http://www.tarotforum.net/forumdisplay.php?s=980c9eef2905675c14d13733e5f131a0&f=58

 

And like I said, the books by Paul Foster Case are very good in this regard. I definitely feel like mandatory reading material if you are seriously interesting in studying the RWS symbolism and to understand the Golden dawn system that it is based on. This one in particular is great to start out with: https://www.amazon.com/Tarot-Key-Wisdom-Ages/dp/1585424919

[DrDunbar]

@LogicalHue Thanks for the response! Any thoughts on the magician card from what you have read?

[DrDunbar]

Thank you @Raggydoll. Any thoughts about the magician card? What is he holding?

[DrDunbar]

1 hour ago, Raggydoll said:

(I gather that this is what you want, unless you’re doing a RWS clone?)

Thank you for the link, @Raggydoll! This will come in handy. My deck is not a clone of the Smith-Waite deck per se, but certainly inspired by it. The goal of my deck is to concentrate on the symbols as well as pay homage to Smith's artwork. Naturally, as an artist, I am re-inventing each card in my own style (somewhat minimalist and monochromatic) and have even added supplemental symbols to some of the cards. I have the first eleven cards of the Major Arcana finished, so still a long way to go. Below is one of my finished cards, The Lovers. D

 

 

 

[LogicalHue]

4 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

Were you not around for the great era of the AT forum?

I was not ever a part of those forums. I've gotten to some things a few times through round-a-bout googling. Thanks for the links. I have thought about looking more into the Golden Dawn as I'm always curious about RWS-esque ideas outside of that particular deck. I've gone down a lot of rabbit holes.

 

But my study group idea was not for RWS but specifically for the Pictorial Key. I genuinely don't understand what he's saying in present day english a lot of the time.

 

@DrDunbar The Magician has always been a pretty straightforward card for me. He's definitely holding a wand, as is the woman in the World card. I do still kind of internally think of it as a candle that's lit at both ends though. The belt eating itself is supposed to be a symbol of infinity or limitless or something if I'm remembering correctly, I think I'm getting that from the Pictorial Key. There are definitely things mentioned in there that I didn't really notice before.

 

I also wanted to mention that the link Raggydoll gave has an Index with links for each card. I got the book on Kindle but it isn't indexed like that so I couldn't stand it, and have been using that same resource when I want to look something up.

[Raggydoll]

5 hours ago, LogicalHue said:

I was not ever a part of those forums. I've gotten to some things a few times through round-a-bout googling. Thanks for the links. I have thought about looking more into the Golden Dawn as I'm always curious about RWS-esque ideas outside of that particular deck. I've gone down a lot of rabbit holes.

 

But my study group idea was not for RWS but specifically for the Pictorial Key. I genuinely don't understand what he's saying in present day english a lot of the time.

 

@DrDunbar The Magician has always been a pretty straightforward card for me. He's definitely holding a wand, as is the woman in the World card. I do still kind of internally think of it as a candle that's lit at both ends though. The belt eating itself is supposed to be a symbol of infinity or limitless or something if I'm remembering correctly, I think I'm getting that from the Pictorial Key. There are definitely things mentioned in there that I didn't really notice before.

 

I also wanted to mention that the link Raggydoll gave has an Index with links for each card. I got the book on Kindle but it isn't indexed like that so I couldn't stand it, and have been using that same resource when I want to look something up.

I spent quite some time trying to make sense of the pictorial key a few years back. I learned that whenever he uses particularly obscure language it’s usually a quote from something that’s supposed to aid your understanding. So it’s like a treasure hunt, and he basically describes it that way too, saying that it can’t be too obvious but it mustn’t be too hard so that those who want to find out more can. These days we have internet and that helps a lot with uncovering his ‘clues’. Some of the quotes are referring to biblical passages, other to hermetic literature or alchemical texts. Some are also quoting/hinting towards his own work (at one point he is actually critiquing some things that he wrote himself under a pseudonym! I suspect he did that because he could and he enjoyed it almost as a game) and then there’s some classic quotes, like ’my heart of hearts’ by Shakespeare. So lots to dig into. I would join you if I had the time but I need to focus on my own deck project 🙂

 

[TheLoracular]

Hi @DrDunbar

I could give you my interpretation of the Magician but as you said, everyone brings something unique to those kinds of discussions.  I am going to suggest though the book I recently bought for my own research into RWS history and symbolism:
Llewellyn's Complete Book of the Rider-Waite-Smith Tarot: A Journey Through the History, Meaning, and Use of the World's Most Famous Deck   This book is worth every penny to someone wanting to understand the RWS on that level and appreciate how much of the symbolism comes not only Waite but Pamela Colman Smith's own knowledge base/experiences and what that was.  

 

I also advocate for Bill Whitcomb's two books The Magician's Companion: A Practical and Encyclopedic Guide to Magical and Religious Symbolism and The Magician's Reflection: A Complete Guide to Creating Personal Magical Symbols and Systems to anyone who's creating their own esoteric tarot deck.  

[Ealasaid Enfys]

On 10/22/2020 at 8:40 PM, Raggydoll said:

And like I said, the books by Paul Foster Case are very good in this regard. I definitely feel like mandatory reading material if you are seriously interesting in studying the RWS symbolism and to understand the Golden dawn system that it is based on. This one in particular is great to start out with: https://www.amazon.com/Tarot-Key-Wisdom-Ages/dp/1585424919

 

Thanks for the tip, @Raggydoll The main reason for me starting with tarot years ago was my symbolism fetish. I put the book on my to read (or who knows, to buy) list. Before buying a book I want to see what's it like inside. I found some pictures from the inside and it looks exactly what I'm looking for.
Same goes for the Llewellyn book. Amazon provides a sneak peak. Thank you @TheLoracular for addin one to the list. I can't wait to dive into them. 49083 others to o first... This will never end, will it? 😜

[Raggydoll]

7 minutes ago, Ealasaid Enfys said:

 

I can't wait to dive into them. 49083 others to o first... This will never end, will it? 😜

Nope 😁
 

[TheLoracular]

1 hour ago, Ealasaid Enfys said:

I can't wait to dive into them. 49083 others to o first... This will never end, will it? 😜

Never ever ever!  LOL.  But my life has fallen into such a happy place when five weeks ago I woke up and realized it was time to go back to the work of tarot instead of writing/playing RPGs all. day. long.  Such a healthier obsession for a homebound invalid of body but not mind and soul.  

No regrets 🙂  and I'm excited to follow your own progress with your deck. 

[DanielJUK]

I really love that everyone sees different things and symbols in the cards and come up with different ideas from it. We form our perspectives from the art from our lived experiences, from studying the cards (knowledge) and our sub-conscious (intuition). Sometimes I have read for people and see different symbols to how I have seen them in other times and if I go with what I am seeing *that time*, it's usually a pretty important message for my sitter. I also really recommend scanning cards and looking at what section of the card and symbols stand out for you, they can change every time you read with it and often a great visual clue.

 

So people do see different things in the cards and some are more easy than others, I do always see the Wand the Magician is holding or maybe it's a baton or something like that? BTW a scroll would make logical sense because on the table is a cup, wand (like a staff), sword and pentacle and Wands is on the table already but then maybe it's a wand to conjure and intention. You can argue symbols in many ways 🙂

 

I always wonder about the people and artists who create decks. They have an intention, all the symbols in the art work means this. But people reading the card might read it completely differently. I don't think it's a problem, like they put their artwork out there and it's open for intuition but it's tricky. I have read for friends who create decks using their own decks and they haven't ended the friendship afterwards, so I guess you have to sort of give your art work to the world to take from it as they wish but I do think about artist's intention in their creation. The hardest decks to read are the ones where you cannot work out what the artists were aiming for with their intention.

[DrDunbar]

7 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

BTW a scroll would make logical sense because on the table is a cup, wand (like a staff), sword and pentacle and Wands is on the table

I agree, @DanielJUK. In fact, my deck will have a suit of staves instead of a suit of wands. I've always found the term wand peculiar for what is represented in the artwork. Perhaps wand is an older word for staff, I haven't really looked it up.

[LogicalHue]

I was actually going to say something similar about how they just shouldn't've been wands. They are really staffs, and were staffs I believe before wands, in earlier tarots. While the Magician is holding a wand, like a magic wand, which is totally different. I've trained myself to say "coins" instead of "pentacles", but I can't thus far train myself out of "wands" even though they really bug me.

[katrinka]

7 hours ago, DrDunbar said:

Perhaps wand is an older word for staff, I haven't really looked it up

 

I seriously doubt that. I think the GD probably started the "wand" trope, though I'm too lazy to look it up ATM.
Staffs, sticks, staves...and coins. I think the original intent was common, or fairly common objects, not ceremonial magic implements.

[Raggydoll]

Putting a scroll in his hand would sort of ruin the intent for this card. He is a magician and an alchemist, and he is embodying the hermetic notion "As above, so below, as within, so without, as the universe, so the soul" (Hermes Trismegistus). This would have been something vital to the rituals performed by Waite and the other GD peeps. This is also clearly alluded to in the Pictorial Key (I put the key bits in bold):

 

In the Magician's right hand is a wand raised towards heaven, while the left hand is pointing to the earth. This dual sign is known in very high grades of the Instituted Mysteries; it shews the descent of grace, virtue and light, drawn from things above and derived to things below. 

 

In earlier versions of the tarot, the magician was more of a trickster and not a master of rituals, but Waite wanted to 'restore' the tarot to its original meaning, as understood through the hermetic lens of the golden dawn. So multiple major Arcana cards received a higher status in this process, like the magician and the fool (who now is given a connection to the sun card and to Christ - if you read the book by Paul Foster Case then all this is explained in detail, with a quote from the earliest, unpublished manuscript for the pictorial key).

 

[Raggydoll]

6 hours ago, LogicalHue said:

I was actually going to say something similar about how they just shouldn't've been wands. They are really staffs, and were staffs I believe before wands, in earlier tarots. While the Magician is holding a wand, like a magic wand, which is totally different. I've trained myself to say "coins" instead of "pentacles", but I can't thus far train myself out of "wands" even though they really bug me.

They were rendered that way on purpose. If I remember correctly then they are supposed to carry an association with the rod of Aaron (which was described to be 'flowering' or 'blossoming'). This ties into the Key of Solomon, as understood by hermetic writers such as éliphas lévi. So the suit symbols were purposely done differently than ritual wands, and it was important that the Magician/Magus held a ritual wand. 

[katrinka]

Yep. There was a movement from "regular" (TdM, Soprafino, etc.) Tarot to occult Tarot. So you have people like Waite revamping it. Wirth, too, though he didn't touch the Minors. People were corresponding the cards to the Hebrew alphabet, astrology, etc. and they didn't always do it the same way, but it was the lingua franca for a good many years.

[Ealasaid Enfys]

9 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

In earlier versions of the tarot, the magician was more of a trickster and not a master of rituals, but Waite wanted to 'restore' the tarot to its original meaning, as understood through the hermetic lens of the golden dawn. So multiple major Arcana cards received a higher status in this process, like the magician and the fool (who now is given a connection to the sun card and to Christ - if you read the book by Paul Foster Case then all this is explained in detail, with a quote from the earliest, unpublished manuscript for the pictorial key).

 

I found the book(s) online. Is it true that they only cover the Major Arcana?

[Raggydoll]

1 hour ago, Ealasaid Enfys said:

 

I found the book(s) online. Is it true that they only cover the Major Arcana?

I believe so. Most occultists favor the major arcana. I am trying to remember what was the best source on the minors. Waite viewed the minors as telling the story of the grail myths and he did talk about this (briefly) in his own book on the grail mysteries. He saw the suit emblems as the grail hallows. Mary Greer did a workshop on that topic some years ago. It was really interesting. I believe it’s still available on Global spiritual studies (it’s not free). If I can remember any of the other good resources I’ll let you know. I did my personal studies of the PKT many years ago so it’s not fresh in my mind. 
 

eta: Pamela had much more say in the design of the minors than the majors, and there are good books describing that influence. Like this one https://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Waite-Smith-Tarot-Worlds-Popular/dp/0738741191

[Ealasaid Enfys]

On 10/25/2020 at 7:49 PM, Raggydoll said:

eta: Pamela had much more say in the design of the minors than the majors, and there are good books describing that influence. Like this one https://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Waite-Smith-Tarot-Worlds-Popular/dp/0738741191

 

Please, someone make her STOP! 😁

It's a good thing the holidays are coming. Now I know what to ask.

 

Maybe a stupid question, but since the Minors are all linked to the Majors the use of symbols can be used for them as well?

[Raggydoll]

Just now, Ealasaid Enfys said:

 

Please, someone make her STOP! 😁

It's a good thing the holidays are coming. Now I know what to ask.

 

Maybe a stupid question, but since the Minors are all linked to the Majors the use of symbols can be used for them as well?

Yes absolutely you can see the pattern of symbolism throughout all the cards. Maybe some of these books - at least the older ones - could be found as ebooks on the library? I

know there are big national library sites and even those that are available world wide. I remember one site in particular that had several books on tarot and occult topics and anyone could register for free. I forgot the name of the site. @gregory do you remember what it was called?