Three of Swords

[akiva]

Hey @Karrma in pythagorean number symbolism the 3's represent the "means by which" things happen (amongst other things), all that means is that the 3's represent the mode in which the suits act. Kind of like a picture/snapshot of them in action. You can see this in the RWS 3's quite clearly.

The reason I mentioned pythagorean number symbolism is because a lot (around 49%) of Waites meanings aren't original to him. Etteilla wrote them way before he did. And I believe (but can't prove) that Etteilla drew from pythagorean thinking regarding the number cards. Sorry to confuse you 😅

 

I'm not very clued up on kabbalah and what the number system is personally. But I'm not sure how much of it Waite actually followed versus Crowley in the thoth deck. I'd find it hard to marry the keyword form to the image on the 3 of swords if I'm honest!

If a heart of the matter choice works for you then use that 😊 at the end of the day, it's what works for you!

[BradGad]

Hey @akiva … do you have a go-to source for learning about Pythagorean number symbolism?

 

[akiva]

I do yes @BradGad my main books are:

The Theology of Arithmetic (the best source)

Numbers and their occult virtues

Medieval number symbolism 

The pythagorean triangle: or the science of numbers. (Not as good as the others).

All but the first book kind of break away into religious themes, which may float some people's boats. But not mine, so I ignore those parts. 😅

There's also Digital Ambler's blog, that's good. Skyscript has a keyword list somewhere on their site, but finding it might be a chore.

Off the top of my head thats all I can remember (there aren't that many sources to go off of unfortunately). 

[Karrma]

2 hours ago, Wyrdkiss said:

Don't look at the Thoth three of swords then. It's titled, "Sorrow" and is quite intense.

@WyrdkissHa!  That was the first Three of Swords I looked at.  And that title feels more of what I interpret this card as, so was a reason I was not clicking with jealousy in the deck that I am studying now. 

 

2 hours ago, Misterei said:

Interesting take on the 3 swords card. I was always bothered that Thoth deck calls this card Saturn in Libra and Sorrow. Saturn is exalted in Libra ... so this feels like Crowley didn't really think it through. The astrology is at odds with the card title.

But yes, I read some cards differently than the "standard". For me it's 7 Swords. I read that card differently than most people.

@Mistereieveryone looks at astrology differently.  My rising sign is in Libra,and I can only follow astrology if I use that as the most important of my signs.   I do well with Saturn and learn by opposites, meaning I learn as much from what something is not, as what it is.   But in general, I keep studying astrology and keep on feeling that it doesn't resonate with what I am experiencing, so keep putting it down, then taking it back up again to see if there is something I am missing.  

 

On 2/11/2023 at 12:23 PM, gregory said:

I've never seen it as jealousy at all. In terms of a relationship it's a break up - often one you didn't see coming. That could be because of cheating or something - but it was  unexpected - there wasn't a chance to feel jealousy - that would come later, when you realise it's all over and he/she is with someone else now. If they are - it could equally be "I just realised I actually don't like you; we're done." The swords side of it is the cold truth of it. If you (generic) felt jealous already it will have come from being suspicious - which may actually, in the end, have caused the breakup. It's heartbreak, not jealousy.

@gregoryyes, I do need to take into consideration if I were doing a reading, especially for others.  I forget that, as I tends to use Tarot as "How to look at a question in 72 different ways" and rarely if ever read for others.  And I will almost always chose intuition (and what I believe are my guardians) before tarot if they conflict.  My thought is that this card meaning of Jealousy and things to do with romantic love  kinda went down a wrong path of symbology for me, and we all can get triggered when we look at hearts and swords.

[Wyrdkiss]

1 hour ago, akiva said:

I do yes @BradGad my main books are:

The Theology of Arithmetic (the best source)

Numbers and their occult virtues

Medieval number symbolism 

The pythagorean triangle: or the science of numbers. (Not as good as the others).

All but the first book kind of break away into religious themes, which may float some people's boats. But not mine, so I ignore those parts. 😅

There's also Digital Ambler's blog, that's good. Skyscript has a keyword list somewhere on their site, but finding it might be a chore.

Off the top of my head thats all I can remember (there aren't that many sources to go off of unfortunately). 

what is the author of your preferred Theology of Arithmetic please?  There are several books with that title.

[Karrma]

4 hours ago, Mister said:

This is a funny topic for me, really.

 

@Karrma, what is your prefered deck in reading? That will have quiet an impact on how you read this card.

From what I have read above, I'd say the answers mainly concern themselves with 3's of swords hailing from/in alignment with the RWS-style of reading.

 

Although I do find @fire cat pickles 'epiphany' an excellent choice, for it is nicely individualistic (with a splash of humour), my own utilisation of the card in question apparently differs big time from the rest here.

 

I thought I might as well include it here, for a little perspective on the diversity in handling the cards.

 

For an easier understanding, my main is the Grimaud TdM. Also, Paul Marteau's book did have an impact for me, I like myself some originality in dealing with the cards. In regards to numerology, I do not utilise the kabbalistic base, neither do I use Marteaus - still, I feel closer to the latter.

Those two are certainly not the only ways of handling numbers.

 

Back to the Grimmy ( i.e. Grimaud TdM).

The 3 of swords is quite special in the suit, for it is the only numbered sword card (the ace is without number) which has plants as well as a sword depicted inside the amygdala (on that note, the ace is also without amygdala).

3 is 'dynamics' for me. The twigs could well be from a bay laurel.

The meaning I use is "a small victory".

For example, gaining the upper hand in a quarrel.

Winning in competition for employment.

There is a little gain included, however, said gain will not grow more by itself, something still has to be done for solidification.

Also, it can have an insulating effect, like after a quarrel.

Usually both parties (if it were two parties quarreling) need a little distance to warm up to each other again, regardless of who won the argument.

If they do warm up again.

 

That is the way said card applies for me.

It may very well differ for you.

As I reckon, I do seem to be utilising a rather excentric set of meanings when compared to what seems to be convention.

😎

@MisterI cannot read most RWS decks as my mind goes into work mode if I see swords in people, not tarot mode.  So my first deck was The Rosetta Tarot by m m meleen, looking at all the tarot decks in Aeclectic Tarot, and finding one I liked that was still in print.  The second was The Gaian Tarot by Joanna Colbert Powell after I had a reading done with it, and she has become a wonderful teacher and mentor for me.  The third was a serendipity mistake The Wild Unknown, which came when I thought I ordered the Wildwood.  Those continue to be my 3 favorite decks.  I learned the Kabbalah by myself learning the Rosetta Tarot.  Right now I am doing the Wheel of the Year with the Greenwood Tarot, and like Chesca Potters majors, but have some differences with some of the minor cards, so working through that.  

I am fascinated with the use of the amygdala with tarot, especially the Grimaud TdM.  What does that mean in the Grimaud TdM?  In neurology, the amygdala is a major part of the brain.  

[fire cat pickles]

7 minutes ago, Wyrdkiss said:

what is the author of your preferred Theology of Arithmetic please?  There are several books with that title.

The one I have is the translation by Robin Waterfield and is attributed to Iamblichus. ISBN 978-0933999725

[Mister]

5 minutes ago, Karrma said:

I am fascinated with the use of the amygdala with tarot, especially the Grimaud TdM.  What does that mean in the Grimaud TdM?  In neurology, the amygdala is a major part of the brain.

Ho.

What it does mean: Hard to say. It depends on the author of the book, or on your very own prevalent association - I mean, it is a TdM, after all ☺️

 

What I was trying to do: Find another word for "almond-shaped-thingies", preferably shorter, as that is the form the outer "swords" have in the TdM-style.

 

What's interesting about the word 'amygdala' in relation to the swords suit: That part of the brain deals, amongst other stuff, with fear and recognition of dangerous situations. As do the swords. Well, at least I take them that way.

The amygdaline form is also used in trump XXI, one of the more sensual cards of the TdM, and surprise! Sensuality also seems to be stuff that brain part has a role in handling.

 

Is it intended? No idea.

Might be someone would be inclined to say "Yes, definitely, look here, the ancient alchemists/architects/egyptians/archeons/hallucinogenic substances did write their wisdom into these cards and I know about this sh't, trust me, bro!" Not me, though. 😉

 

Co-incidence. Happens with tarot.

🧐

[BradGad]

@Mister...

 

> I mean, it is a TdM, after all ☺️

 

Wha?

 

Explain please! There has been no discussion of TdM so far. (If it were TdM, we wouldn't be in this (very productive!) quandary in the first place. The TdM 3 of Swords is a beautiful card that has absolutely no baggage about heartbreak.)

[Mister]

@BradGad

 

Please do refer to my previous posts in this thread, it might clear things up.

[Misterei]

3 hours ago, Karrma said:

...  My rising sign is in Libra,and I can only follow astrology if I use that as the most important of my signs.   I do well with Saturn and learn by opposites, meaning I learn as much from what something is not, as what it is.  

@Karrma in Vedic Astrology we do most things by rising sign (lagna) rather than Sun sign. Vedic also uses the Moon sign more than western astrology. In Vedic we might say that Libra rising means Venus is your lagna lord ... and Venus is friends with Saturn ... so Saturn, although malefic, is a good planet for you. Of course Vedic uses sidereal zodiac ... so you might NOT be libra lagna according to the sidereal calculations.  I'm Gemini lagna in sidereal and cancer rising in tropical.

 

To bring it back to Tarot ... Saturn in libra (exalted) one would expect to see the more positive side of this malefic planet. Democratic, does it's duty, fair, strong sense of responsibility, just, good work ethic, self discipline. None of these things have anything to do with the standard meaning of the card ... which is usually along the lines of sorrow or heartbreak.

 

I mix astrology and Tarot quite a bit .. in my own ways ... which sometimes align with what Crowley or Waite tried to do ... yet I also think those men had some wonky ideas that don't add up to anything.

[akiva]

8 hours ago, Wyrdkiss said:

what is the author of your preferred Theology of Arithmetic please?  There are several books with that title.

Sorry, it is the translation by Robin Waterfield. I didnt realise there are several books 😯

[Karrma]

17 hours ago, Wyrdkiss said:

I have never considered Crowley potentially missing the mark here, that is a fascinating observation.

 

 

Yet others still pointed out that one keyword does a card injustice, as spread, question, and surrounding cards all play a role.    I like keywords, however, as something to bounce from -- but otherwise I am uncertain where you saw Jealousy equating the 3 of Swords.  How do you feel now that we are discussing, @Karrma?

 

 

@Wyrdkiss I love it. I now have in my list of things to learn, my TdM deck I picked up on a trade table a few l years ago, and Pythagorean Mysteries. I still don’t know if I want to open the can of worms of Vedic Astrology as how do you combine Vedic Astrology and  a tarot system imbedded with sidereal astrology? (Please don’t answer that question here as that is an entire book I believe). And consolation that my confusion on the 3 swords piercing a symbol heart is generating a fascinating conversation.  Thank you all. 

[Mister]

3 hours ago, Karrma said:

my TdM deck I picked up on a trade table a few l years ago

🤣

Please do forgive the laughter, I haughtily assumed to have played a role therein.

 

And there is one thing I am wondering ever since reading the below:

19 hours ago, Karrma said:

I cannot read most RWS decks as my mind goes into work mode if I see swords in people

 

(I will say so beforehand, in accordance with forum rules: You have absolutely no obligation what-so-ever to answer! Everyone here will understand.)

 

What in blazes is your occupation!?

I am fine with wondering on, just in case the above needs reinforcement 😉

 

Anyway, this was a fine thread!

 

[Karrma]

12 minutes ago, Mister said:

🤣

Please do forgive the laughter, I haughtily assumed to have played a role therein.

 

And there is one thing I am wondering ever since reading the below:

 

(I will say so beforehand, in accordance with forum rules: You have absolutely no obligation what-so-ever to answer! Everyone here will understand.)

 

What in blazes is your occupation!?

I am fine with wondering on, just in case the above needs reinforcement 😉

 

Anyway, this was a fine thread!

 

@Misterin my past I moonlighted as a medical resident in inner city ERs at the Trauma Hospital. Knives were real and I associate knives with swords. I also wonder if the person may need a transfusion or sutures or little things like that. 

[Mister]

@Karrma

Thank You, now I can say "No wonder".

 

And yes, knives are real, and trauma is hard to cure at best.

 

Well - this may sound strange, but what can one do (despite simply shutting up)? - it is a worthwile experience, especially for a reader.

Helps to keep the feet on the ground.

 

Again, thank you for sharing.

<lifts hat and bows>