Suits and their Elements… thoughts on different approaches?

[FindYourSovereignty]

Recently, I’ve been seriously contemplating the elements and that Swords could be Fire and Wands could be Air.

 

There are some very compelling arguments for both and of course, Wands being Fire and Swords being Air is pretty well established. I realize this is reader’s choice and that there are even other systems out there where cups are air 🤷🏻‍♀️. 
 

Is it just easier to stick with the standard?

 

For those that do consider Swords Fire and Wands Air, do you find it fairly easy to make this switch when reading a deck that was created with Swords Air and Wands Fire?

 

 

[Mikhalia]

The switch is not that hard, you may run into some snags when contemplating some of the cards but otherwise, you should be fine.

 

The Morgan Greer deck is Rods - Earth, Swords - Fire, Pentacles - Air, and Cups - Water if you really want to throw yourself off! I only mention this because the Morgan Greer has quite a similar feel to RWS and most of the symbology is close if not exact and they interchange pretty easily so all decks are possible.

[Misterei]

@FindYourSovereignty  This topic vexes me. I have one deck that "messes" with the suits and it's a love/hate thing. };>

 

You can argue that swords should be fire b/c they're metal and forged in flame.

Not to mention, following Vedic astrology ... fire is the warrior element. Sun and Mars are associated with Kshatriya (warriors) as are the fire signs Aries, Leo, Sag. 

 

Personally I'm ok with batons being for warrior people ... the symbol was originally polo sticks in Mamluk cards ... and the Mamluks played polo using a slain enemy's head as the ball. So, yeah. Warriors as batons is fine with me.

 

But ... swords is definitely associated with warriors if you follow the European "caste" system.

 

In the end ... I like swords for air. All suffering comes from the mind. There's just a whole bunch of Indian and Buddhist philosophy about the mind that I find symbolized in swords. The two edges, the point, etc. Also the association of swords with Justice (more than warfare) fits in with the vedic astrology system i use.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Misterei

[Misterei]

3 minutes ago, Mikhalia said:

The Morgan Greer deck is Rods - Earth, Swords - Fire, Pentacles - Air, and Cups - Water

I had no idea. And here I've just used it the "regular" way all these years!

[FindYourSovereignty]

8 minutes ago, Mikhalia said:

The switch is not that hard, you may run into some snags when contemplating some of the cards but otherwise, you should be fine.

I am sensing this as well. When really looking at the cards, it doesn’t feel like such a stretch.

[Mikhalia]

LOL I originally bought the RWS deck and just never could read with it at all, I ended up giving it away and was gifted the Morgan Greer. And since I had spent way too long staring at the LWB for RWS I noticed that right away with the Morgan Greer. I have used both systems with the MG LOL it works fine either way!

[FindYourSovereignty]

11 minutes ago, Mikhalia said:

The Morgan Greer deck is Rods - Earth, Swords - Fire, Pentacles - Air, and Cups - Water if you really want to throw yourself off! I only mention this because the Morgan Greer has quite a similar feel to RWS and most of the symbology is close if not exact and they interchange pretty easily so all decks are possible.

Wow! This does throw me off. 😊

 

7 minutes ago, Misterei said:

I had no idea. And here I've just used it the "regular" way all these years!

Yep! Me, too! 
 

This has shocked me. Thank you for

sharing these details, @Mikhalia. I will need to go investigate this deck further… 😁

 

[fire cat pickles]

With TdM I use coins for fire, wands for air and swords for earth.  It's a personal choice. The coins correspond with diamonds, wands with spades and swords with clubs in a playing cards deck.

[Mikhalia]

I have the OG printing of the deck from 1979 so I don't know if they have made changes to the booklet since then. The suits are swapped around but as far as what the suits represent they stay the same as other systems. 

[FindYourSovereignty]

18 minutes ago, Misterei said:

In the end ... I like swords for air. All suffering comes from the mind. There's just a whole bunch of Indian and Buddhist philosophy about the mind that I find symbolized in swords. The two edges, the point, etc. Also the association of swords with Justice (more than warfare) fits in with the vedic astrology system i use.

Good points about the Indian and Buddhist philosophies. This resonates with me as well.

 

21 minutes ago, Misterei said:

This topic vexes me. I have one deck that "messes" with the suits and it's a love/hate thing. };>

This is what I am thinking will happen to me if the manual and/or the art is so specifically supporting one direction - will it annoy me. Will I feel like it is work to change or that I am going against the energy of the deck…  stuff like this.

 

Now that I know about the Morgan Greer… 😳😝😁 Maybe it won’t be as annoying as I thought it might be! 

 

[DanielJUK]

Aeclectic even has a page of decks which have Swords as Fire - https://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/decks-with-changed-suit-element-associations.shtml

 

There was an interesting similar thread discussion about this before on our forum -

 

 

I find it's a good argument that Wands burn with fire and Swords are forged / tempered in fire. But you can have flaming torches made from wood and that swords air does represent the cutting intellectually. I stick with the tradition order but go with the system of the suits for each deck. Readers are always free to use whatever ordering and methods work for them personally! 🙂

 

[FindYourSovereignty]

Thank you for the links, @DanielJUK. I will further investigate. 😊

 

Both of these arguments for Wands burning and Swords forged in fire are compelling. The point that recently caught my interest was that the Wands in the RWS deck have growth on them and that green trees wouldn’t burn. I had no problem sticking with the common association until that thought got into my head.

 

Someone else pointed out to me that the original term was Batons, however, I haven”t studied or used historical decks enough for me to go down this path, yet. 🤦🏻‍♀️ 😂

 

 

Edited December 24, 2024 by FindYourSovereignty

[FindYourSovereignty]

13 hours ago, fire cat pickles said:

With TdM I use coins for fire, wands for air and swords for earth.  It's a personal choice. The coins correspond with diamonds, wands with spades and swords with clubs in a playing cards deck.

I haven’t considered TDM yet, but I can see how this will change as they did use Coins and Batons. Thank you for sharing this. Such a different way to look at this when you add the playing cards into the mix as well. Interesting!
 

13 hours ago, Mikhalia said:

I have the OG printing of the deck from 1979 so I don't know if they have made changes to the booklet since then. The suits are swapped around but as far as what the suits represent they stay the same as other systems. 

Mine is also from 1979. I just never read the booklet. ☺️ Now I will. 😊
 

 

[Flaxen]

With TdM, I’m more influenced by the four temperaments - choleric, melancholy, sanguine, phlegmatic. 
 

I divide them as follows:

Batons - melancholy, earth

Cups - sanguine, air

Swords - choleric, fire

Coins - phlegmatic, water

 

Personally, I like that there is flexibility within the TdM for this. I can totally see how @fire cat pickles associations work too. 
 

With RWS derived decks I stick with Wands as fire, Cups as water, Swords as air and Pentacles as earth unless the creator has explicitly changed those associations. 

[Chariot]

Swords has always been the problematic one for me.  Swords are so unpleasant, if you look at them as representing physical happenings.  I struggled for a long time fitting them in with 'air,' which is not only a reasonably pleasant element in itself, but one which is necessary for human life and NOT something to regard as inherently difficult or challenging.  Then I look at all those destructive/negative associations for Swords in the RWS tarot, and think ...aargh.

However, I've recently been stubbornly forcing the meanings to fit with the notion of 'mind' rather than physical destruction, and it's working for me.  I can work with it being 'air' that way, as the mind, like air, is rarely ever 'tangible.'  The two of swords can be related to an inability or unwilllingness to make up one's mind, three is choosing mind over heart, four is taking time off to figure out the answer to a problem. Five is believing you're hard-done-by or have decided to give somebody else a hard time, six is deciding to escape the ramifications of an issue, seven is being good at playing mind games or stealing somebody else's intellectual property, eight is about believing you are restricted when you really aren't, nine is excessive worrying, and ten is believing it's all over and done for (rightly or wrongly.)

And if these kinds of situations do exist in the real world, I think the Swords can give pointers on how best to deal with them from an intellectual standpoint.  This is different from charging in to address an issue (Fire) or letting your feelings run free (Cups), or taking slow, practical steps to effect a change (Pentacles.)  Swords can mean that how you think, or what you believe, can present its own set of solutions. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Chariot

[FindYourSovereignty]

5 hours ago, Chariot said:

Swords are so unpleasant, if you look at them as representing physical happenings.

So true!

 

5 hours ago, Chariot said:

'air,' which is not only a reasonably pleasant element in itself, but one which is necessary for human life and NOT something to regard as inherently difficult or challenging.

Also, so true!

 

5 hours ago, Chariot said:

However, I've recently been stubbornly forcing the meanings to fit with the notion of 'mind' rather than physical destruction, and it's working for me.  I can work with it being 'air' that way, as the mind, like air, is rarely ever 'tangible.'  The two of swords can be related to an inability or unwilllingness to make up one's mind, three is choosing mind over heart, four is taking time off to figure out the answer to a problem. Five is believing you're hard-done-by or have decided to give somebody else a hard time, six is deciding to escape the ramifications of an issue, seven is being good at playing mind games or stealing somebody else's intellectual property, eight is about believing you are restricted when you really aren't, nine is excessive worrying, and ten is believing it's all over and done for (rightly or wrongly.)

I think this correlates with the four bodies: Swords being mental, Wands being spiritual, Cups emotional, and Pentacles physical. 
 

6 hours ago, Chariot said:

Swords can mean that how you think, or what you believe, can present its own set of solutions. 

Absolutely! I agree!
 

 

6 hours ago, Flaxen said:

With TdM, I’m more influenced by the four temperaments - choleric, melancholy, sanguine, phlegmatic. 
 

I divide them as follows:

Batons - melancholy, earth

Cups - sanguine, air

Swords - choleric, fire

Coins - phlegmatic, water

Personally, I like that there is flexibility within the TdM for this.

I can see the advantage the TdM decks have to allow for the differences.
 

7 hours ago, Flaxen said:

With RWS derived decks I stick with Wands as fire, Cups as water, Swords as air and Pentacles as earth unless the creator has explicitly changed those associations.

 

I would think from an intellectual level I would be able to make this shift without issue, but the art can be heavily leaning in one direction. It has me curious that if I really do want to lean in one direction in my studies if it makes sense to either select decks that are specific to this, or, as @Wanderer shared in an old post about this, eliminate the correspondence altogether. Much to contemplate here.

 

 

[DanielJUK]

10 hours ago, Chariot said:

Swords has always been the problematic one for me.  Swords are so unpleasant, if you look at them as representing physical happenings.  I struggled for a long time fitting them in with 'air,' which is not only a reasonably pleasant element in itself, but one which is necessary for human life and NOT something to regard as inherently difficult or challenging.  Then I look at all those destructive/negative associations for Swords in the RWS tarot, and think ...aargh.

 

It's weird that I am defending swords here as in my personal readings, it's the suit I find the most hard to relate to! I am such a cups person 😆

However I think the Swords as a symbol in tarot isn't just a destructive association. It can be a weapon, it can be many things. It might be worth thinking about all the things they can be in real life, there are some positive connotations as well, as per all the symbols. The swords that feature in most tarot cards are double-edged, not all swords are but it shows the cards can be multiple things. They can be a weapon and destructive, they can be constructive and help in creating something. They can be protective and save you. Also they can be decorative and ceremonial as art forms with beautiful decorations, they are not intended to be used for destruction. Someone in my friends circle is really into swords and the decorative art form of them, she is an expert in the area and the history. She has no interest in them as a weapon or fighting at all, it's a whole field! We saw the ceremonial swords for example in the coronation. They feature heavily in heraldry. I think the big thing about the tarot swords are they must be balanced. Justice holds perfectly that sword in balance, the 2 or Swords person holds those swords in balance.

 

There are many sides to the symbols and elements. In astrology in the last few years, Air transits have been very related in charts to Covid and the pandemic spreading, also Avian Flu. So the suits are never one idea, they have many sides.

[Chariot]

43 minutes ago, DanielJUK said:

 

It's weird that I am defending swords here as in my personal readings, it's the suit I find the most hard to relate to! I am such a cups person 😆

However I think the Swords as a symbol in tarot isn't just a destructive association. It can be a weapon, it can be many things. It might be worth thinking about all the things they can be in real life, there are some positive connotations as well, as per all the symbols. The swords that feature in most tarot cards are double-edged, not all swords are but it shows the cards can be multiple things. They can be a weapon and destructive, they can be constructive and help in creating something. They can be protective and save you. Also they can be decorative and ceremonial as art forms with beautiful decorations, they are not intended to be used for destruction. Someone in my friends circle is really into swords and the decorative art form of them, she is an expert in the area and the history. She has no interest in them as a weapon or fighting at all, it's a whole field! We saw the ceremonial swords for example in the coronation. They feature heavily in heraldry. I think the big thing about the tarot swords are they must be balanced. Justice holds perfectly that sword in balance, the 2 or Swords person holds those swords in balance.

 

There are many sides to the symbols and elements. In astrology in the last few years, Air transits have been very related in charts to Covid and the pandemic spreading, also Avian Flu. So the suits are never one idea, they have many sides.

I would like to agree with you on this.  However, while my knowledge of tarot card decks is sketchy, compared to others here on this forum, I can't think of ANY deck in the RWS system that portrays swords in the positive ways you suggest.  Which is a shame, as I do agree these concepts are something a person can project onto swords cards. But they're certainly not going to be easy to arrive at, using intuition while looking at the card images.

The best you'll get are a couple of neutral ones ...2 of Swords, 4 of Swords and 6 of Swords. And even in these, the picture is NOT a happy one. All the other tarot suits have pictorial representations of good times, contentment, enjoyment, as well as the pitfalls and negative aspects of the suit. All except Swords.

The 'protective' card depiction doesn't exist in the Swords suit, except in some depictions of court cards.  Nor does the concept of cutting away unnecessary or bad things.  Nor is there the concept of creativity—like a pair of scissors might depict.  It's just all pain, unpleasantness, misery ...even death.  The best the Swords can offer are a precarious, but not happy balance, or escaping trouble in some way (by taking a rest on a sarcophagus, or actually escaping in a boat!)  None of these cards portray any sense of enjoyment whatsoever, other than the mean-spirited smile on the face of the person who has taken swords from his opponents, or the sneaky, backward-looking thief who has stolen swords from somewhere.

It would be a challenge to design a tarot card deck that alters all of these images enough to incorporate the positive side of blades or swords into at least SOME of the images, wouldn't it?  I'd love to see that happen.   A few decks I own have done this with the court cards, and one has done it with the Ace (depicting the Ace as a dog getting surgery done at a veterinary hospital) but none have managed to do it with the 2-through-10 cards.

I wonder if the concept of scissors (or even a knife) might lend itself to this kind of alteration?  Because, while we do sometimes behold swords as things of beauty and of ceremony, their conception and actual use is as a weapon.  Knives, machetes, scythes, and scissors, however, are tools created to make certain aspects of life easier.  They are sharp and CAN hurt you, but that was never their original intention.  They CAN be used as weapons, but they are not actually weapons.  I would certainly prefer a suit of Blades instead of Swords.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Chariot

[Mikhalia]

I have had positive readings with swords but mostly in reverse, with the occasional positive upright. It is sad that the suit is seen as so negative since the mind/spirit and air/fire can have such positive aspects. It just does not seem to be as flexible as the other suits. I did a reading with my son the other night that was nothing but cups and it was a pretty brutal reading from a suit that is normally nicer LOL And not one card was reversed or contrasting using EDs! But how often do you hear about or have given a reading that was mostly swords and positive? 

 

I like the idea of a more positive rendition of the swords or at least a little more flexibility in how they are read at the basic level. I am not one of the people who believe the cards only tell you nice things, all of them can be either positive, negative, or neutral except the suit of swords. It definitely trends toward the neutral or straight-up negative. I have some decorative swords in my home and they can be absolutely beautiful! I guess someone had to be the bad boy in the bunch and Swords got to be it!

[Misterei]

On 5/8/2023 at 4:20 PM, DanielJUK said:

However I think the Swords as a symbol in tarot isn't just a destructive association. It can be a weapon, it can be many things. ... They can be protective and save you. Also they can be decorative and ceremonial as art forms with beautiful decorations,

@DanielJUK I never thought about the ceremonial and ritual aspect of decorative swords. Interesting point (haha). To me this reinforces the swords/air/mind connection ... but it's quite ironic that i've many times used ceremonial swords in ritual ... and yet never related this to Tarot swords until you mentioned it. Thanks!

[akiva]

On 5/7/2023 at 6:06 PM, FindYourSovereignty said:

Recently, I’ve been seriously contemplating the elements and that Swords could be Fire and Wands could be Air.

 

There are some very compelling arguments for both and of course, Wands being Fire and Swords being Air is pretty well established. I realize this is reader’s choice and that there are even other systems out there where cups are air 🤷🏻‍♀️. 
 

Is it just easier to stick with the standard?

 

For those that do consider Swords Fire and Wands Air, do you find it fairly easy to make this switch when reading a deck that was created with Swords Air and Wands Fire?

 

 

What is your reason for switching up the elements? (If you've already shared this I apologise, I've only skimmed the thread thus far 😅)

There are so many different element systems and they all work if you can work out the logic behind them (which doesn't help in some ways). It mostly falls down to what resonates with you. 

 

Picard's system has swords as water. I think it's because in older astrology the water signs were seen as the greater malifics or something like that. Cups are air in his system too. 

Lasenic gives coins as air and swords as earth in his deck.

Etteilla has fire for coins (I really don't get this!) And earth for batons (I get this, they're very much melancholic in nature as has been stated).

 

You could look at them as planetary too, I'm not sure if this is done in a system as such but I'd give cups to Venus, coins to Jupiter, swords to Mars and batons to Saturn. From this you could get their respective elements.

 

Slight OT but one key to the suits as such is finding sets of 4 in life and applying them to the individual suits.

I read a book where someone applied the parts of DNA to the tarot. I'd have to dig that book out to be certain how they did that. It was a crazy read.

Agrippa wrote about the scale of the number 4 if that interests you. It compliments element systems well. 

[Misterei]

@akiva

2 hours ago, akiva said:

… You could look at them as planetary too, I'm not sure if this is done in a system as such but I'd give cups to Venus, coins to Jupiter, swords to Mars and batons to Saturn. From this you could get their respective elements.

I use planets with the suits but from a Vedic Astrology viewpoint.

Thus the FIRE planets, Sun and Mars go with the fire suits (Batons/wands). For me this resonates with the Courts’ personalities. The Wands courts often have solar or martian personality types as I read them.

Air planet Saturn goes with Swords (Vedic sees Saturn as air). For me this resonates as malefic saturn naturally goes with malefic swords

Earth planet Mercury goes with coins … again this resonates as mercury deals with commerce.

That leaves the remaining benefic planets (moon, jupiter, venus) with the benefic suit of cups. I find cups people are often lunar, jupiterian, or venusian personalities.

[akiva]

9 hours ago, Misterei said:

@akiva

I use planets with the suits but from a Vedic Astrology viewpoint.

Thus the FIRE planets, Sun and Mars go with the fire suits (Batons/wands). For me this resonates with the Courts’ personalities. The Wands courts often have solar or martian personality types as I read them.

Air planet Saturn goes with Swords (Vedic sees Saturn as air). For me this resonates as malefic saturn naturally goes with malefic swords

Earth planet Mercury goes with coins … again this resonates as mercury deals with commerce.

That leaves the remaining benefic planets (moon, jupiter, venus) with the benefic suit of cups. I find cups people are often lunar, jupiterian, or venusian personalities.

I never thought to apply all the traditonal planets to the suits! Do you then apply all the planets meanings to the numerical meaning in each suit? Or is it solely for the courts?

 

I've been toying with using planets in the minchiate. Having the suits represented by the planets and then when the zodiac cards show up it adds an interesting layer/dynamic to the spread, which is similar in some ways to elemental dignity.

 

What's interesting in Agrippa's scale of 4 is he gives mind to Fire not Air. This is also something that's reflected in geomancy too, the first point of the figure represents the head/mind and is Fire. He also gives Fire to justice, which is very swords like. So much food for thought! 😅😂

[Misterei]

9 hours ago, akiva said:

I never thought to apply all the traditonal planets to the suits! Do you then apply all the planets meanings to the numerical meaning in each suit? Or is it solely for the courts?

It's fluid. Definitely the main application is planetary personality archetypes for the courts. Yoga of Tarot system (my system for Vedic Astrology + Tarot) also applies more subtly for the Pips. For example Wands = Fire = Sun and Mars. Many wands cards deal with fame and leadership (sun) or competition (mars). I never liked Crowley's system of applying specific asterisms to specific cards. It seems too limiting. Yoga of Tarot fluid application: 10 wands can deal with the burdens and responsibilities of leadership. Thus it's a shadow side of Sol as the planet of leadership. 5 wands definitely shows competition (mars). Other cards may not be quite so specific ... but I think you get the idea. I've found a resonance.

9 hours ago, akiva said:

What's interesting in Agrippa's scale of 4 is he gives mind to Fire not Air. This is also something that's reflected in geomancy too, the first point of the figure represents the head/mind and is Fire. He also gives Fire to justice, which is very swords like. So much food for thought! 😅😂

I'm not familiar with Agrippa ... but there is definitely a "thing" with fire and air. I think Kabbala sees fire as the most subtle. Like the divine spark or divine mind (forgive me ... I'm an astrologer not a kabbalist!) I see the Devine Spark as ABOVE all the Maha Bhuta (elements). So Air, fire, water, earth are part of earthly life and the divine fire of the divine spark is a different thing.

Dunno if that makes sense ... but definitely food for thought!

Edited May 12, 2023 by Misterei

[akiva]

15 hours ago, Misterei said:

It's fluid. Definitely the main application is planetary personality archetypes for the courts. Yoga of Tarot system (my system for Vedic Astrology + Tarot) also applies more subtly for the Pips. For example Wands = Fire = Sun and Mars. Many wands cards deal with fame and leadership (sun) or competition (mars). I never liked Crowley's system of applying specific asterisms to specific cards. It seems too limiting. Yoga of Tarot fluid application: 10 wands can deal with the burdens and responsibilities of leadership. Thus it's a shadow side of Sol as the planet of leadership. 5 wands definitely shows competition (mars). Other cards may not be quite so specific ... but I think you get the idea. I've found a resonance.

 

I see the ten of batons/wands as similar, but from a saturn/melancholic/earthy kind of view point. Ten being the maximum, and the heaviness of earth = maximum weight on our shoulders. Or a huge amount of effort needed to see things through. Sometimes things being a deceptively far distance away from us too.

 

I'm not familiar with Crowley's system, are you meaning how he and the GD applied decans to every card? 

I like your fluid approach, it is quite similar to how I use a scale of 4 and elements etc, too 😁

 

15 hours ago, Misterei said:

I'm not familiar with Agrippa ... but there is definitely a "thing" with fire and air. I think Kabbala sees fire as the most subtle. Like the divine spark or divine mind (forgive me ... I'm an astrologer not a kabbalist!) I see the Devine Spark as ABOVE all the Maha Bhuta (elements). So Air, fire, water, earth are part of earthly life and the divine fire of the divine spark is a different thing.

Dunno if that makes sense ... but definitely food for thought!

His books are a slog of a read and covers many esoteric topics, I haven't read all of his work just cherry picked bits that apply to whatever I'm studying at the time.

 

It seems like the divine spark/fire would be Ether? The all encompassing element. It's always there, while also not being there, ever present while also ever the mystery!