Rehabilitating the Three of Swords

June 3

Ninety-five percent of my readings have been with Tarot de Marseille, generally following the open reading approach championed by Yoav Ben-Dov. This approach emphasizes forming a relationship with the cards over time, and developing a personal set of associations and meanings for each of the cards, guided by informed intuition. Lately I have been working some with the Thoth deck and the Deck of Ceremonial Magick, primarily using Lon Milo DuQuette's books as a resource outside the deck itself. DuQuette too stresses the importance of developing a relationship with the cards and not relying on established book-meanings.

Statements like "It's a card of separation and sorrow. End of story" are antithetical to this approach. There is never an "end of story."

If others here are committed to sticking to book-meanings of specific cards as laid down in the RWS school, that's absolutely fine. Everyone develops their own approach. That's just not my approach.

June 3

You started this thread for us to discuss the 3 of Swords re "the RWS in particular." If we're switching gears to the TdM then I would need to approach this card from a completely different perspective.

June 3

You know, the best way to get the answers you are seeking from tarot is to communicate your question clearly. Likewise, the best way to get the kinds of responses you are seeking in a forum is to communicate clearly your purpose in bringing up a topic in the first place.

Edited June 3 by geoxena

June 4

1 hour ago, fire cat pickles said:

You started this thread for us to discuss the 3 of Swords re "the RWS in particular." If we're switching gears to the TdM then I would need to approach this card from a completely different perspective.

Yep. He's doing this.

And just for the record, not everyone uses Ben Dov. I use playing card meanings for TdM pips. There are other approaches as well. So we can add "package-deal fallacy" to "moving the goalposts."

Let's stay on topic, shall we?

2 hours ago, BradGad said:

Statements like "It's a card of separation and sorrow. End of story" are antithetical to this approach. There is never an "end of story."

I think that even Ben Dov would agree that this =/= this

So yes. End of story.

"All is impermanent."

June 4

5 hours ago, BradGad said:

If others here are committed to sticking to book-meanings of specific cards as laid down in the RWS school, that's absolutely fine. Everyone develops their own approach. That's just not my approach.

Being a visual reader is not the same thing as being stuck on book-meanings. You mention Ben-Dov, and his method is highly visual, so I think you understand what I am talking about.

It is not strange that people have been commenting on the RWS deck, since you mentioned it in your first post. But if you rather have us talk about the marseille, we sure can:

Given that this is the 'Individual card meaning' area, we won´t take into consideration how this card may be modified by surrounding cards. Context is important in a reading, but in this area we will go with what we see in this individual card.

In this particular image, I see a blood red sword that is at the very center of the card. It has two, cut and flowerless, blood red stems behind it. Two other swords are encircling or encasing the red sword and the red stems. In the corners are four beheaded flowers, possibly cut from the two middle stems.

I would interpret this scene as that the bloodied sword has decapitated all the flowers from the two stems. The stems are therefore encased with the very thing that caused them their misery. As they sit there, aware that they have now lost their only means of procreation, they get to contemplate their loss. Given that the stems are cut, they will not be able to produce any new flowers, and they have a highly limited life span to look forward to.

In a way, this is not particularly different from the imagery of the pierced heart. Maybe the decapitated flowers can bring some brief joy in other places, before they shrivel up and decompose, but it is not something that the stems will be able to enjoy or witness. So to me, there is still a theme of loss and sadness.

June 4

11 hours ago, BradGad said:

Ninety-five percent of my readings have been with Tarot de Marseille, generally following the open reading approach championed by Yoav Ben-Dov. This approach emphasizes forming a relationship with the cards over time, and developing a personal set of associations and meanings for each of the cards, guided by informed intuition. Lately I have been working some with the Thoth deck and the Deck of Ceremonial Magick, primarily using Lon Milo DuQuette's books as a resource outside the deck itself. DuQuette too stresses the importance of developing a relationship with the cards and not relying on established book-meanings.

Statements like "It's a card of separation and sorrow. End of story" are antithetical to this approach. There is never an "end of story."

The phrase "end of story" doesn't refer to the end of the situation - it is used in the same sense as "Cats are felines. End of story" - said to someone who claimed their cat was a fish. I'm sure you got that - or maybe not.

11 hours ago, BradGad said:

If others here are committed to sticking to book-meanings of specific cards as laid down in the RWS school, that's absolutely fine. Everyone develops their own approach. That's just not my approach.

As one who does NOT use book meanings when I actually read - I plead an exemption from your generalisation here. I referenced book meanings when I posted before because you did - but I have NEVER found the 3 Swords in any of my (rather many) decks to suggest a gift of any kind. Pain, loss, sorrow....

10 hours ago, fire cat pickles said:

You started this thread for us to discuss the 3 of Swords re "the RWS in particular." If we're switching gears to the TdM then I would need to approach this card from a completely different perspective.

This - but as @Raggydoll points out - the imagery is the same, even in your chosen deck (which was not, as others have said - the one you cited). Pain, injury, no gifts.

Here's the card you mentioned specifically in your first post:

Leaving aside the words on it - you have a sword that has smashed two other swords. A gift ? I don't think so. Certainly an end for the two broken swords.

June 4

All of this has me thinking about the messaging 'find one little glimmer of good from the situation' in hopes to have someone breakout of their sorrow. It's not intended to eliminate or diminish the pain, but to build upon it in an expansive way, imo. No, of course, that is not what is shared or discussed in the moment with the person experiencing this heartache, but, as an energy healer, it is something that is discussed at great length when the client is ready and seeks to come out of the pain.

Much like the Death card is often discussed as regeneration or the birth of something new, yet something has to have died away first, which, in many cases, can be extremely painful and difficult. Or the Tower card is forced change that one wouldn't make on their own. This change is often presented as though it is to something better, but that is truly in the eyes of the beholder and what they choose to do with the change.

The 3S, as was discussed in this thread, begins from the mind, the mental state, instantly moves into the emotional and, no matter the emotional depth of the pain, either sits with or eventually comes out the other side with a new mental awareness. Some call this enlightenment, others may call it acceptance, or anger, or revenge. Brad called it a gift, some healers call it a benefit. Whatever it is or isn't is personal to the person coming out of the 3S pain and likely could be different for each 3S experience they have.

Reading for a client, it's discussed as deep pain. Energy healing with a client, it's discussed as an opportunity, if they are ready and choose to take it.

Edited June 4 by FindYourSovereignty

June 4

24 minutes ago, FindYourSovereignty said:

Brad called it a gift, some healers call it a benefit. Whatever it is or isn't is personal to the person coming out of the 3S pain and likely could be different for each 3S experience they have.

This is inherent in the system though. The breakout here continues in the 4 of Swords. It is organic.

Just my opinion.

June 4

10 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said:

This is inherent in the system though. The breakout here continues in the 4 of Swords. It is organic.

Just my opinion.

Thank you, @fire cat pickles. I think this is true with all the cards, the progression organically moves to the next card.

If I am inner-standing correctly then, iyo, the 3S receives the mental awareness that triggers heart wrenching pain and stays here until the 4S comes in with the opportunity to get out of the emotional state. Is this an accurate description?

June 4

1 hour ago, FindYourSovereignty said:

Thank you, @fire cat pickles. I think this is true with all the cards, the progression organically moves to the next card.

If I am inner-standing correctly then, iyo, the 3S receives the mental awareness that triggers heart wrenching pain and stays here until the 4S comes in with the opportunity to get out of the emotional state. Is this an accurate description?

Yes that is my understanding.

June 4

28 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said:

Yes that is my understanding.

Thank you for sharing. 😊

June 4

3 hours ago, fire cat pickles said:

Yes that is my understanding.

Agree. A person rests and recovers, like an injured animal.

@BradGad Here's all the RWS Swords. I don't see a "gift."

By the way, in this deck the art was done as illustrations of Waite's book meanings. It's incorrect to dismiss us as solely reading with "book meanings" or "canned meanings" or any of the other epithets that have been thrown at us over the years. Many of us are essence readers, and book meanings need to be taken into account to arrive at that. So can illustration, history, culture, etc. You distill all of that down to a basic essence that you can unpack as needed. Plus we use things like facing directions, color pooling, etc.

If one is to read off the pictures, it's best done with an awareness of these things. Not with an attitude of "LALALALA NOT LISTENING!" or "EEEEEEEK!!! BOOKS ARE BAD!"

And then there are the real Thothies, the ones who incorporate extensive knowledge of Hermetic Qabalah, astrology, etc. That comes from studying books.

@gregory reads off the pictures, too, but she's aware of the background of the cards. Actually, what she does is not at odds with what I do. There are more similarities than differences.

In the Thoth, Waite's blinds are stripped away. But the 3 of Swords remains the same. Sorrow. With the 3, the Swords are entering Binah, the fields of understanding, perception and realization. They reveal the dark side of understanding. Ignorance really is bliss, in many cases.

Now, if we jump over to TdM, the cards aren't intentional illustrations of any book meanings, as they were created for gaming. So how the pips are interpreted is a mixed bag.

Raggy has already done a wonderful Ben Dov/EE/Jodo style off-the-picture interpretation. It's all blood and cuts. (If you've ever seen Hitchcock's Vertigo or Armistead Maupin's wonderful Tales of the City, you've seen cut flowers used to foreshadow death.)

Here's Etteilla:
"Estrangement, Departure, Absence, Discarding, Dispersion, Remoteness, Delay. – Contempt, Repugnance, Aversion, Hatred, Disgust, Horror. – Incompatibility, Contrariness, Opposition, Unsociability, Misanthropy, Incivility. – Separation, Division, Breaking, Antipathy, Section, Cutting off.
Reversed. Misdirection, Dementia, Vanity, Alienation of spirit, Distraction, Insane conduct. – Error, Miscalculation, Loss, Deviation, Discard, Dispersion."

And Papus:
"Realization of the enmity. Hatred."

(Jeez, this isn't looking like a nice card at all, is it?)

Edited June 4 by katrinka

June 4

6 hours ago, gregory said:

Leaving aside the words on it - you have a sword that has smashed two other swords. A gift ? I don't think so. Certainly an end for the two broken swords.

Those two smashed swords were Peace in the previous card. But now Saturn, the great initiator, has entered the scene and radically upset the scales of Libra with the intention of a new balance being found. But being a card of Binah, this rebalancing cannot be forced. One must simply Understand or "stand under" this seeming darkness and allow it to do its work with as much receptivity as possible. To resist is to get stuck in this card and increase the suffering.

There seems to be some objection to this card being seen as a gift. But this is the classic gift of Saturn. The gift that nobody wants and is non-returnable. But is a very precious gift all the same. It all depends on how you orient yourself towards it. Wishing things were other than they are is the wrong way to go with the 3 of Swords. This card is a reality check.

June 4

18 minutes ago, Aeon418 said:

There seems to be some objection to this card being seen as a gift. But this is the classic gift of Saturn. The gift that nobody wants and is non-returnable. But is a very precious gift all the same. It all depends on how you orient yourself towards it. Wishing things were other than they are is the wrong way to go with the 3 of Swords. This card is a reality check.

"Oboy! Look what Saturn gave me! Kidney stones! Grinding poverty! And my whole family is dying! Wheeeeeee!"

Um...NOPE. There is nothing in the connotation of "gift" that suggests that.

Edited June 4 by katrinka

June 4

Pain is pain. Coming to the conclusion that a painful event is a gift comes well after the fact (if at all—it's not a given), through rest, damage control, soul-searching, or whatever. But it starts with facing or acknowledging that the pain is there, even when it feels like being stabbed through the heart. The process of repairing or remedying the pain is not indicated in the Three of Swords. There are other cards for that. IMHO, the Three of Swords is solely addressing the pain, sorrow, heartache, anguish, etc., but NOT what comes afterwards.

Edited June 4 by geoxena

June 4

People want to fuzz up their card meanings for some reason, make them as vague as possible. Then they wonder why their readings don't work.

June 4

It’s also worth mentioning that the stabbed heart is not a ’RWS tradition’, it is much older than that. It was inspired by the 15th century Sola busca deck: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_Busca_tarot

June 4

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

Um...NOPE. There is nothing in the connotation of "gift" that suggests that.

And that's why many people chose the fantasy model of reality that their mind generates in place of actual reality. Reality is often harsh. But waking up to it without endlessly wishing things were otherwise is a real gift of acceptance. But, as is often the case, self-generated mental torment or escapism are preferable even if the underlying imbalance persists.

And some people simply love to wallow in their pain.

Edited June 4 by Aeon418

June 4

12 minutes ago, Aeon418 said:

And that's why many people chose the fantasy model of reality that their mind generates in place of actual reality. Reality is often harsh. But waking up to it without endlessly wishing things were otherwise is a real gift of acceptance. But, as is often the case, self-generated mental torment or escapism are preferable even if the underlying imbalance persists.

And some people simply love to wallow in their pain.

All of the Wayne Dyer/Deepak Chopra gobbledegoop aside, we're talking about reading cards. Just a reminder.

It's a card. It shows a stabbed heart. It doesn't imply wallowing or not wallowing. It means "sorrow."

Edited June 4 by katrinka

June 4

1 hour ago, Aeon418 said:

And that's why many people chose the fantasy model of reality that their mind generates in place of actual reality. Reality is often harsh. But waking up to it without endlessly wishing things were otherwise is a real gift of acceptance. But, as is often the case, self-generated mental torment or escapism are preferable even if the underlying imbalance persists.

And some people simply love to wallow in their pain.

I don't believe this for a second. Sometimes bad things happen to good people. This is the lesson of the 3 of Swords. Saturn's children didn't ask to be born and then eaten.

While we must eventually accept the bad things that happen to us, no one can force us to accept them as "a gift." It is always on the individual's terms and on the individual's time.

Take grief for example. It never goes away. It changes. When I lost someone close to me (13 years ago this November) the grief is still there, but it's different. It was and is a 3 of Swords moment. Never a gift and unacceptable. Telling me to stop wishing things were otherwise and to accept it as a gift, or saying that I live in a "fantasy model of reality," or whatever you were saying, really does smack of New Age Bullying in IMHO.

Now that being said, it took me 10 years to move past and adjust in order to find a way out of my 3 of Swords funk. I have been able to move into a 4 of Swords phase where I can help others in the similar 3 of Swords situations: Those suffering from 3 of Swords health situations, being a paramedic. It helps thrive in that Jupiter in Libra life energy, expansive and balanced, as opposed to Saturn's oppressive and imbalanced Chaos.

Edited June 4 by fire cat pickles

June 4

This is my Buddhist background talking, so ymmv, but the most basic tenant is that sorrow is by definition the feeling of wanting things to be other than they are. Without that feeling, there's no suffering.

That said, you can't force it, and I feel something on the sorrow scale every day, from discovering I'm out of coffee to the big things in life. (Well, being out of coffee is pretty big. 😬) When we discover painful things, it's like falling down the stairs. We're not generally on top of it ready to have the most enlightened response. One moment the doctor said my father had cancer when I was a teen, and the next I was crashed out at the bottom of the figurative stairs.

In that situation sorrow IS my reality. There's no point in judging it; that only compounds the problem, and it isn't compassionate to myself. So instead, if I'm able to, I'm willing to feel how that feels. Or sometimes I'm not, because it's difficult when it comes to the big things. I wouldn't say avoiding my reality for a while is wallowing; I'd say I'm coping exactly as well as I'm currently able to cope.

And I said it before, but to me the side of this card that I see as a gift is simply being reminded these things are universal (Saturn!). My feelings are still valid even when others have it worse, but knowing that can still help me put things in perspective.

Edited June 4 by Rose Lalonde

June 4

Thanks for the image, Gregory, it really helps to get a focus on what is being discussed.

13 hours ago, gregory said:

Here's the card you mentioned specifically in your first post:

Taking this in from an imagery perspective, and my jumbled knowledge bag from all over the place: I see this central sword standing firm as an aspect of Libra - as the law. A universal law. It looks like the central pillar holding up the scales of balance, which will shift this way and that depending on the weight put on it, whatever the nature of the things that comprise those two counterweights is/are.

Saturn is an essence of constriction, the bounding of the physical body. We've drunk the waters of Lethe and forgotten about the universal law. The fixed-solidity of programming that comes with that social conditioning and so on that tells us we should think a particular way about this or that. And of course, a physical body means pain. Saturn is lead, it is heavy. Libra is copper, I believe, a malleable metal that conducts electricity, so maybe there's a link to a wider spiritual understanding if we connect to it.

The 2 smaller swords are broken on the law, they have no power against it, even together. Is that our flawed logic? Harmony (Libra again) is broken, and being bounded in (Saturn's holding onto the fear that he would in turn be eaten by his children - or his thoughts dwelling on this eating him up).

Yes, it is pain, undoubtedly, here in the physical. Yet we hear of people forgiving someone that murdered their child. We hear of monks self-immolating in meditation, too. So we do have lessons here, in this card they're inescapable - we know this. This suit is all about conflict which we can't escape in life. But we can utilise the intellect to deal with it. In line with Saturn withholding his gifts until the task is over and down the track. Once we're back in spiritual form, is it then a gift that we don't lose?

Edited June 4 by JoyousGirl

June 5

It's good to see some open-minded discussion.

For the record, here's Ben-Dov's "quick interpretation" of the card:

"3 of Swords: Victory. Overcoming a weak opposition. Cutting through a quandary and going forward in a clear direction. A third party intervenes and wins over two weakened opponents."

June 5

2 minutes ago, BradGad said:

For the record, here's Ben-Dov's "quick interpretation" of the card:

"3 of Swords: Victory. Overcoming a weak opposition. Cutting through a quandary and going forward in a clear direction. A third party intervenes and wins over two weakened opponents."

What have we here? A book meaning?

Some of the playing card meanings have to do with third parties. That might be where he got it.
I still don't see "gift."

June 5

I determined to not be drawn into any arguments. I am simply not available for that discussion.

But I will try to clarify a central point of my OP: I am not saying that pain and sorrow are gifts. I am saying that gaining the capacity to respond to the challenges faced by others, including their pain and sorrow, through empathetic experience, with an open and engaged heart is a gift. Sorrow over one’s one actions can play a similar role.

Edited June 5 by BradGad

Rehabilitating the Three of Swords

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