Possible Greenwood reprint.....

[Babalon Jones]

It is exactly how Rose Lalonde described it. Same thing happened to me when people were pirating my decks on Etsy. I provided Etsy all my proofs of copyright info all the paperwork and copyright numbers and website where they even stole all my photos to advertise their fake product ! they in turn told the pirate to respond to my claim. The pirate responded a denial of my claim. So Etsy said they would do nothing and I would have to take the offender to court. I had to have a copyright lawyer threaten the pirate via direct messages there with a cease and desist or else you will be taken to court. Then the pirate took it down as this was a big law firm, and they knew they would lose and get borked. Etsy would do nothing which is why I have never purchased anything there since. Kickstarter will also do nothing and the thing will almost certainly go through unless she threatens to sue him and he takes it down. These big companies have zero ethics and wish it to go through so they get their cut. They only care if it is something like Nintendo or Disney because those companies are the only thing big enough to sue Etsy or Kickstarter too in addition to the pirating party. KS and Etsy are rich enough to have far more lawyer power than us plebs. So it goes.

[ilweran]

I think an agreement has been come to.

 

The copyright infringement claim was made on 23rd May (see this, with details)

 

On the 25th I heard Chesca had ok'ed it - or at least her brother with PoA had.

[gregory]

Rats. 

[FindYourSovereignty]

Well, I guess that's it then. Thank you, @ilweran for the update.

 

@Rose Lalonde & @Babalon Jones, thank you for the KS and Etsy details. I find this all very disheartening although, from @ilweran's post, MR and the brother must have come to a financial agreement so it worked out for all of them and all the people that ordered, I guess.

[gregory]

Just as long as the MONEY all goes to Chesca. Which it won't.

[katrinka]

3 hours ago, gregory said:

Just as long as the MONEY all goes to Chesca. Which it won't.

 

Of course it won't. Look at who he made the deal with.

[EagleOwl]

Having read this entire thread I am shocked by many of these posts.
 

Why would anyone possibly object to Chesca and Ryan receiving her fair shares of all their hard work from this reprint? Do you not want to see her beautiful art work and legacy endure with those who could not buy a deck originally or print their own?

 

I have never met either of them and don’t pretend to know what they are thinking or feeling. That is their own personal business. I really had expected a rather more spiritually enlightening discussion when I came to this forum rather than personal attacks. But I feel it is only fair to put a positive view forward on an overwhelmingly one-sided and extremely negative discussion. 
 

Surely you all must be pleased that the Greenwood Tarot has been re-released into the world and pleased for Chesca? 

[gregory]

CHESCA should get her due profits. Nobody knows if it's true that she was OK with it - she certainly objected many times before, as did her brother - and the art work IS available - with her consent - on line. Many of us have followed Ryan's attempts to get around all this for many years. If you read the whole thread you will have viewed his interview where he stated unequivocally that if it were to be republished he would have to find a new artist as he didn't have copyright on the art, only on the book, And he tried to publish the Wildwood instead, with the Greenwood book slightly altered, so badly that it didn't match the new cards (which is unfair to Worthington, whose cards on their own are good stuff., but are effectively insulted by the book put out with them) If she had wanted it reissued, she has had every opportunity over Ryan's other attempts to come out and say so, Instead we heard from her brother just a couple of years ago - in a thread that Ryan had pulled from facebook - that she absolutely did NOT.

 

If I thought for one moment that Chesca was OK with this I'd support it every step of the way. But someone has to prove to me that she is. Ryan saying so is not proof, any more than my saying she isn't is actual proof. If you don't like it here, that's OK. We have many enlightening discussions, but one about breach of copyright isn't likely to be spiritually enlightening.

[EagleOwl]

Of course Chesca should be properly renumerated as per the law. Don’t forget copyright law varies hugely between the UK, Europe, US etc and I haven’t seen an opinion from an English copyright law specialist on this forum so far… it is terribly complicated when it comes to dual copyright between two creators, as I know from my own experience. Equally a verbal or written permission is also valid and can change.

 
I was happy to see that the reprint was happening, being blissfully ignorant of this can of worms…and backed the project early.  I then came across this thread which made me feel I couldn’t trust my own feelings and withdrew my backing as worried about Chesca’s position. Since then I have read this whole thread and on Reddit too. 
 

But when the question was raised with Mark and he reassured us her permission to reprint had been given, I saw no need to hold back and have reinstated my backing. I truly hope she will be generously compensated as he has said he will. None of know her circumstances and should not speculate on her motivations. 

 

If anything has threatened to ”taint” my experience of using this new deck, it is the comments here which have nothing to do with copyright matters and are just personal  abuse and idle gossip. No one has any proof of anything, as you rightly say and we should leave the matter there. 

[katrinka]

6 hours ago, EagleOwl said:

Do you not want to see her beautiful art work and legacy endure with those who could not buy a deck originally or print their own?

I paid $23.70 to have my copy printed up at Printers Studio. 
I understand that not everyone can afford to pay $23.70 for a deck of cards. But if that's the case, they certainly can't afford to pay twice that for the Kickstarter deck.

 

2 hours ago, EagleOwl said:

If anything has threatened to ”taint” my experience of using this new deck, it is the comments here which have nothing to do with copyright matters and are just personal  abuse and idle gossip. No one has any proof of anything, as you rightly say and we should leave the matter there. 

There's ample proof of most of what's been said here.  We've been watching it play out online for years.

ETA: Just wanted to note that this forum is not unmoderated. Staff would remove anything remotely resembling "personal abuse and idle gossip."

Edited May 31 by katrinka

[gregory]

4 hours ago, EagleOwl said:

But when the question was raised with Mark and he reassured us her permission to reprint had been given, I saw no need to hold back and have reinstated my backing. I truly hope she will be generously compensated as he has said he will. None of know her circumstances and should not speculate on her motivations. 

 

Nobody has speculated on her motivations in this - only over whether or not she turned to Christianity - a debate which died as death years and years ago, and which has nothing to do with this., But there is the FACT that HER BROTHER posted on facebook last time Ryan was trying to arrange a reprint and said she was  with him, and was NOT OK with it and stated unequivocally (as we all knew) that she holds the copyright to her art - as he has stated again a few days ago - see the DMCA above. Given that Ryan kept trying for quite a while, you will (or perhaps not) excuse me for being unconvinced of Ryan's honesty when it comes to something he is so keen to do. If the money is going to Chesca, and if she is really OK with it, that's good. I would like to see it ALL go to her, though. It's the art people want - the book is fairly easily available.

 

4 hours ago, EagleOwl said:

If anything has threatened to ”taint” my experience of using this new deck, it is the comments here which have nothing to do with copyright matters and are just personal  abuse and idle gossip. No one has any proof of anything, as you rightly say and we should leave the matter there. 

 

We have proof that a couple of years ago Chesca, through her brother, said no way. We also know that Ryan did his best to market a totally different deck as a reborn Greenwood, with a book - basically the Greenwood book - that didn't fit it at all. We all saw it on Amazon. Chesca's work is lovely and we are all very much in favour of her getting whatever she wants in terms of both money and reprinting or otherwise. Ryan having shut down two facebook pages - one of which was simply a Greenwood study group - speaks volumes.

 

You do you. I own the original deck and love it. I use Chesca's on line book with it, as it fits the deck better than Ryan's book.

Edited May 31 by gregory

[RunningWild]

7 hours ago, EagleOwl said:

If anything has threatened to ”taint” my experience of using this new deck, it is the comments here which have nothing to do with copyright matters and are just personal  abuse and idle gossip. No one has any proof of anything, as you rightly say and we should leave the matter there.

 

This conversation has been going on for nearly seven years going by the first post in August of 2018.  You've been here five seconds.  There was also plenty of discussion on a previous forum from which many of us originate.

11 hours ago, EagleOwl said:

I really had expected a rather more spiritually enlightening discussion when I came to this forum rather than personal attacks.

 

That was intended to be a discussion stopper but it won't work.  Spirituality isn't involved.  It also isn't talking about the individual cards.  There's a different section for that.  Protecting the creative rights of an artist is on the table here and IF we knew for certain that Chesca Potter gave her blessing to the reprint, the entire thing would end BECAUSE until now she has refused.  That much we know for fact.  No one is going to simply take MR's word for it.

[Teemu]

3 hours ago, gregory said:

 

We also know that Ryan did his best to market a totally different deck as a reborn Greenwood, with a book - basically the Greenwood book - that didn't fit it at all. 

 

That explains it - I found the Wildwood Tarot book somehow thin on meanings and explanations, before I became aware of the Greenwood Tarot, and the implications that have been discussed here so long.

[gregory]

1 hour ago, Teemu said:

That explains it - I found the Wildwood Tarot book somehow thin on meanings and explanations, before I became aware of the Greenwood Tarot, and the implications that have been discussed here so long.

 

Look at the book along with the cards. Especially the Archer. The description is of the Greenwood card; the Wildwood one isn't remotely connected to the text,

 

I posted about it in this very thread:

 

[RunningWild]

1 hour ago, Teemu said:

That explains it - I found the Wildwood Tarot book somehow thin on meanings and explanations, before I became aware of the Greenwood Tarot, and the implications that have been discussed here so long.

 

Here's another discussion at AT about the problems people had with the book:  https://www.tarotforum.net/threads/so-whats-up-with-the-wildwood-tarot.206644/

 

I've had the deck since it came out but have only casually glanced at it a few times.

[jupiter]

Hello there (if there's still someone there), I just came back to this forum (and to tarot) after a few years pause. Decided I really want a proper edition of the Greenwood (my DIY-print copy unfortunately has the sides cut off due to my poor planning back in the day). Discovered the kickstarter, had a weird feeling about it, did some digging... and it brought me back here. 

 

Rather than giving this guy any money, I decided to re-do my DIY approach with the publicly available image files and set aside a morning in Photoshop to carefully put it all together. Now why I'm posting here is, I'd love to know if anyone else would share their personal DIYed versions of this deck. Just out of curiosity, did you go bordered or borderless, what kind of back did you choose (the Storyteller card or the patterned one, or a different one altogether?) etc.

 

I'll go ahead and share how I've made mine - all in the same style, just with different colors for the suits and a nice lush GREEN for the majors. 🙂 The white border is automatically done by the printing company. I live in Finland nowadays but used a German printer, the same I used before with my botched attempt back in the day.

[jupiter]

Also sorry for asking about backs and then not actually showing how I've done those... 🙂

[ilweran]

Looks like you did a good job.

 

Just a heads up that there will apparently be a new edition published next year by Schiffer.

[jupiter]

Thank you, yes, I read about that. Also did some investigation on where Chesca Potter went and concluded that it seems unlikely she would directly profit from any official reprint at this stage. It's exquisite art and while I'd love high quality prints of it, I don't want to buy a mass-produced new edition which only the guy who wrote a questionable guidebook profits from.

[Rodney]

50 minutes ago, jupiter said:

Thank you, yes, I read about that. Also did some investigation on where Chesca Potter went and concluded that it seems unlikely she would directly profit from any official reprint at this stage. It's exquisite art and while I'd love high quality prints of it, I don't want to buy a mass-produced new edition which only the guy who wrote a questionable guidebook profits from.

1,000,000%!!! I have an all-but-new version of the Thorsons Greenwood that I effectively got for $8 and change long after it was OOP. I don't need to give that man a single dollar for any of his shenanigans...

[ilweran]

6 hours ago, jupiter said:

Thank you, yes, I read about that. Also did some investigation on where Chesca Potter went and concluded that it seems unlikely she would directly profit from any official reprint at this stage. It's exquisite art and while I'd love high quality prints of it, I don't want to buy a mass-produced new edition which only the guy who wrote a questionable guidebook profits from.

 

I don't like the guy, but Chesca will definitely get money from the Kickstarter and the Schiffer reprint - her brother is in contact with her and has power of attorney. 

 

The Schiffer reprint couldn't happen without her/her brother's ok as she owns the copyright to the art.

[jupiter]

Gotta say I'm a bit... doubtful about that part. However, the heart wants what it wants and right now, the only options are eBay or the DIY route, so I'm happy I'll have my own personal edition soon.

[ilweran]

The Schiffer reprint must have Chesca's permission - their legal department wouldn't allow it to go ahead without it.

 

You may have concerns about how that permission ended up being given - the Kickstarter essentially forced Chesca's/her brother's involvement - but for a mainstream publisher to republish there will be a contract and Chesca will receive payment.

[fire cat pickles]

3 hours ago, ilweran said:

Chesca will receive payment

Or God forbid her estate. We don't know she is actually alive.

[ilweran]

1 hour ago, fire cat pickles said:

Or God forbid her estate. We don't know she is actually alive.

I think she is alive given that her brother has power of attorney for her.

Edited September 30 by ilweran