Observations On Pathworking/Shadow Work/Active Imagination

[Arch]

@Starlight you are welcome, I remember this thread, just reread it myself now.

It is amazing how stuff like this and the understanding I had of it back then has changed so much.

 

It is kinda synchronistic that you brought it up, as I'm currently pondering issues that share attributes with these issues.

Although shadow-work and individuation are two quite different processes, they share many core principles, just in reverse.

 

Individuation is after all about creating more space for being ones own conscious self in the world.

While shadow work is about bringing forth the unconscious stuff and dealing with its dead weight.

Both have merits and rewards, but also costs.

 

[Starlight]

10 hours ago, Arch said:

Individuation is after all about creating more space for being ones own conscious self in the world.

While shadow work is about bringing forth the unconscious stuff and dealing with its dead weight.

This is a very interesting comment, @Arch. I'd heard a little about individuation but I think I must have assumed it was the other side of the coin to shadow work, and that you couldn't have one without the other.

Does individuation go through a different process?

I'm wondering if this is my next step after the shadow work, you see. I've brought stuff up out of the shadows and now need to integrate it and just lighten up the energy a bit.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Starlight

[Eric13]

This is fascinating.

[Starlight]

I'm just posting a few links here that I found on the individuation process as Jung understood it.

 

https://scottjeffrey.com/individuation-process/

 

https://academyofideas.com/2017/10/carl-jung-what-is-the-individuation-process/

 

https://www.carl-jung.net/individuation_steps.html

 

https://www.goodtherapy.org/learn-about-therapy/issues/individuation

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Starlight

[Arch]

5 hours ago, Starlight said:

This is a very interesting comment, @Arch. I'd heard a little about individuation but I think I must have assumed it was the other side of the coin to shadow work, and that you couldn't have one without the other.

Does individuation go through a different process?

I'm wondering if this is my next step after the shadow work, you see. I've brought stuff up out of the shadows and now need to integrate it and just lighten up the energy a bit.

Well you are right it is the other side of the coin.

But being the other side of the coin, it still shares most attributes with shadow work, just in reverse.

 

Where shadow work demands that one looks at all the less flattering aspects of oneself.

Individuation is about looking at all the good aspects of oneself,

the ones that are good from ones own central point of view.

 

This can be really hard given that most people have been sent to school.

Schools amount to little more than shadow work boot camps for most people.,

Cause one is really shown how spectacularly imperfect one is in that process.

 

 

To individuate is to figure out how to be the best you given the cultural constraints one has to live with.

Creating space for ones own light despite all the collective content and shadows one know is there.

Due to most peoples journey this is usually a very difficult process,

cause one has to rediscover something one lost in childhood.

 

Though there are people who for various reasons just individuated naturally,

those tend to climb to the top of society really quickly, as to them there is nothing that is holding them back.

Yet at the same time their shadows get to grow unchecked, and due to their advanced position in society,

it gets to really unfold itself as the monster it is.

Which is why society created the process of school to begin with, to confront the monsters with themselves,

before they grew too big to be managed.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Arch

[Arch]

@Starlight

I was looking at the links you provided, and I guess I've lost track of how individuation works in general being caught up in my own process.

I said in the last post that it was to look at the good sides of oneself, instead of the bad, which is a major part of it, in my case.

Everyone has been on a different journey, and what one actually need to deal with to individuate will vary a lot.

 

Assimilation of the shadow is a huge part of it and is generally the first step, unless like with me, the positive aspects of the personality has been pushed aside.

Then one must first manifest the positive, and afterwards deal with the shadow and then the soul (anima/animus).

 

This is a journey of a lifetime however, and hence we cannot really expect our self too arrive at any firm goal anytime soon.

I mean, I've been fighting with my own process actively for up to two years now, and there is really no end in sight.

God only knows where i will be with this in 10 years for example.

[Arch]

I'll add a song that sort of encapsulates the feeling that drew me into individuating.

This is of course highly individual and personal and hence may not reflect what it is about for others.

 

 

I notice that I've gotten a whole other perspective on what this whole thing is about today.

Becoming more clear about parts that before looked almost fused together. 🙂

[Starlight]

On 7/24/2019 at 6:16 PM, Arch said:

I notice that I've gotten a whole other perspective on what this whole thing is about today.

Becoming more clear about parts that before looked almost fused together. 🙂

This is a great development! I like being able to see my own progress, too. 🙂 

 

I understand what you're saying about your own individual process, about integrating the good as well as the shadowy aspects. I suppose I see shadow work slightly different - there are good things in the shadow as well as the more challenging. Anything about myself that I don't see clearly I consider as being in the shadow, but this may be veering from how Jung saw it.

 

I'm so glad you brought the topic of individuation up, @Arch, because I hadn't even considered the Animus or the Self. I've gone and purchased a recommended book,, Inner Guide Meditation, and I think Steinbrecher might have been showing how to work with these aspects of the psyche from what I can gather from the reviews on Amazon.

 

There probably comes a point, though, when going to a Jungian therapist is the next step. Examining one's own psyche and going in deep is all very well, but I imagine having someone objective to examine what's found there is really a good idea. If you're too close to something, it's hard to see clearly. This is a constant thought in the back of my mind.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Starlight

[Arch]

6 minutes ago, Starlight said:

This is a great development! I like being able to see my own progress, too. 🙂 

 

I understand what you're saying about your own individual process, about integrating the good as well as the shadowy aspects. I suppose I see shadow work slightly different - there are good things in the shadow as well as the more challenging. Anything about myself that I don't see clearly I consider as being in the shadow, but this may be veering from how Jung saw it.

 

I'm so glad you brought the topic of individuation up, @Arch, because I hadn't even considered the Animus or the Self. I've gone and purchased a recommended book,, Inner Guide Meditation, and I think Steinbrecher might have been showing how to work with these aspects of the psyche from what I can gather from the reviews on Amazon.

 

There probably comes a point, though, when going to a Jungian therapist is the next step. Examining one's own psyche and going in deep is all very well, but I imagine having someone objective to examine what's found there is really a good idea. If you're too close to something, it's hard to see clearly. This is a constant thought in the back of my mind.

The way I see the individuation process is a complex mental image in my head, linking up several symbols and systems.

Since I'm not a "thinking type" naturally myself,

I have a difficulty or more a resistance/aversion to elaborating too accurately about that image.

I think my soul wants me to make a book about some topic related to this, but I keep hesitating/sabotaging myself over it.

I have way too many started and aborted books on my hard-drive about all sorts of things. 😢

All I ever published was a short series of poems, but I've later pulled them from the market, as it was obviously not selling,

not too surprising as my only marketing was telling a small handful of people 😆

 

Yeah agree that some things one cannot break through on ones own.

I have a therapist I call on when I run into a brick wall, it isn't too often, as often I just need to be patient.

But she have helped me deal with a couple of really tricky mental "lockdowns".

[Starlight]

51 minutes ago, Arch said:

I have a therapist I call on when I run into a brick wall, it isn't too often, as often I just need to be patient.

But she have helped me deal with a couple of really tricky mental "lockdowns".

Good on you for having a backup for when you know you need it - I'm thinking I'd like to do the same.

 

52 minutes ago, Arch said:

The way I see the individuation process is a complex mental image in my head, linking up several symbols and systems.

Since I'm not a "thinking type" naturally myself,

I have a difficulty or more a resistance/aversion to elaborating too accurately about that image.

Are you artistic? You have a great affinity for music, and poetry, and I wonder if you also draw or paint or sketch?

[Arch]

21 minutes ago, Starlight said:

Good on you for having a backup for when you know you need it - I'm thinking I'd like to do the same.

 

Are you artistic? You have a great affinity for music, and poetry, and I wonder if you also draw or paint or sketch?

Thanks for the compliment.

 

Well I'm certainly artistically bent temperamentally.

If you follow typologies I'd be an ISFP in  MBTI, an ESI in Socionics or a 5w4 9w8 2w1Sx/Sp in the Enneagram.

 

I don't draw very much, but I have done it from time to time to supplement other things I've been doing.

Cause leanings are not skills, one doesn't get good at drawing just by being termperamentally inclined,

but by putting in a lot of time practicing.

 

Yet being 37 in august, I'm way past trying to explore my artistic leanings, except as an outlet for positive repressed tendencies.

Except maybe poetry...

 

And trying to clear up what positive means.

A positive repressed tendency is something one's ego is naturally inclined to do, and which the current cultural environment doesn't disagree with.

Negative repressed tendencies would on the other hand be things that one's ego would be inclined to do that ones culture would disagree with.

In my culture being loud and obnoxious in public is considered wrong in many settings, so someone with such tendencies would repress them.

However if they moved to the middle east, or even the United States, they would find a bigger acceptance for certain modes of behavior.

Hence their previous negative repression has turned into a positive, as now one is holding oneself back from accepted behavior in public.

Since I broke out of a conservative religious church, I've had a lot of experience with having repressed positive qualities.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Arch

[Arch]

Starlight want's to know.

Why I'm wapped in snow.

Don't my light shine true?

All the way through?

 

There are many riddles to my persona.

Why? Isn't it my krona?

Sure I have it bent in from birth.

But that is not why I'm on this earth!

[Arch]

@Starlight

I've been sitting playing a game and pondering what that poem I just wrote means.

I usually don't understand my poems as I write them necessarily, or if I do it is usually a pretty shallow understanding.

I think the snow part refers to thinking, meaning why I'm so wrapped up in thinking as a feeling type.

Reminds me of the king of swords in my tarot deck.

Sitting there in the cold landscape pondering icy subjects.

I often feel that my soul is a lump of ice.

 

As for the "that is not why I'm on this earth", I think it means that to be one sided is not anyone's ultimate destiny.

One should aim for more than just artistic leanings for example, like wholeness of the self, whatever that ultimately means.

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by Arch

[Starlight]

21 hours ago, Arch said:

And trying to clear up what positive means.

A positive repressed tendency is something one's ego is naturally inclined to do, and which the current cultural environment doesn't disagree with.

Negative repressed tendencies would on the other hand be things that one's ego would be inclined to do that ones culture would disagree with.

In my culture being loud and obnoxious in public is considered wrong in many settings, so someone with such tendencies would repress them.

However if they moved to the middle east, or even the United States, they would find a bigger acceptance for certain modes of behavior.

Hence their previous negative repression has turned into a positive, as now one is holding oneself back from accepted behavior in public.

Ah, thanks @Arch. I understand now what you meant by positive and negative. I think we had the same idea, just using different words. For example, someone being assertive in some households could be considered a huge no-no, but in the larger community, assertiveness is a valuable thing. That was what I meant by good and more challenging. Our parents' (or other authority figures) ideas of what was desirable behaviour and undesirable behaviour shaped us when we were young and impressionable. Anything about us that did not fit was pushed into the shadow. At least this is what I understand - I haven't read Jung's books in any depth, and I'm dipping my toe in the water by reading books written by modern authors who have studied Jung and are explaining things to the noob. Like me. 🙂 (Listening to Jung: A Very Short Introduction by Anthony Stevens on Audible just now.)

[Arch]

43 minutes ago, Starlight said:

Our parents' (or other authority figures) ideas of what was desirable behaviour and undesirable behaviour shaped us when we were young and impressionable. Anything about us that did not fit was pushed into the shadow.

Yes pretty much, our culture is like soil, and we get planted in it.

What fruits we bear from that soil is part of our individuation.

Either we survive and thrive in the soil, or we whiter and die.

Hence individuation is supremely important,

because it takes what we are and tries to make the absolute best of it in a way.

 

Quote

At least this is what I understand - I haven't read Jung's books in any depth, and I'm dipping my toe in the water by reading books written by modern authors who have studied Jung and are explaining things to the noob. Like me. 🙂 (Listening to Jung: A Very Short Introduction by Anthony Stevens on Audible just now.)

 

I'm glad that you are continually finding material that appeals to you.

That is the most important thing, reading Jung directly or not is not that important.

After all, I think he only wrote one book meant for public consumption, namely "Man and his symbols",

which was a collaboration with several individuals that begged Jung to pass on his message more clearly.

 

Deeper we go,

into the soul we flow.

Whatever we find,

will us bind.

 

Do not fear,

lend me your ear.

It was meant to be,

you will see.

 

Thanks for reminding me about poetry, I had completely abandoned that.

[Starlight]

I've just found a YouTuber who has made a very clear video on two common misconceptions about shadow work. It's one of the best explanations of why someone would undertake to do shadow work, what to watch out for, and the difference between discernment and judgement.

 

https://youtu.be/PN3bKw2y0nU

[zedekiel]

Thank you @Starlight and everyone who's participated in this thread! I wasn't sure if I should comment my experience with shadow work so far as I'm not sure how open this thread is (and that's ok!) but I wanted to say that reading what everyone has said has been incredibly helpful and insightful! I'm grateful you all discussed here!

[Starlight]

@zedekiel - you're more than welcome! TT&M is a really lovely community full of good people. It's a special place! I'm so glad this thread has been helpful. 🙂

[Starlight]

So, as I come towards the end of 2019, I have some further thoughts on shadow work.

 

I was working with a partner here on the forum (HELLO! @Arabella!! 🤗) and after some significant work we both felt we'd done some intense work and needed to ease back a little. Speaking for myself only, I felt almost empty. I'd had a HUGE insight into something I was doing without consciously being aware I was doing it and eventually this habit came back to bite me. In a good way. I needed it. I'd never have woken up to what I was doing without the "bite".

 

But still, I felt quite hollow. The awareness was there, the determination to catch myself the next time I fell back into that pattern was there. But it felt like something else was needed and I had no idea what it was.

 

To remind myself of the lesson, I created a spread in my bullet journal with images and words. (That's an important part of this type of work - making in concrete. I outlined some ways to do this in the second post in this thread. It's about using the body.

 

I also found a piece of jewellery to wear to remind me.

 

But still, something felt incomplete.

 

Because I have now developed an interest in cultivating chi, I have a feeling this was the missing part. Shadows happen as a result of something being suppressed, so it's a type of blockage. Energy is diverted around this because the 'this' is in some way not considered ok to display. But once we have brought this shadow into the open, we no longer have to divert energy around it. We can let the energy move freely now. Which is where the chi cultivation comes in.

 

As soon as something is uncovered and acknowledged, perhaps we really do need to use the body, as advocated by Robert Johnson (see post 2) but not just to journal, or sing. Perhaps it needs to be a bit more intentional? Like Tai Chi, acupuncture, or something else like that?

 

I'm open to hearing other people's thoughts. How do you feel about this? What are your experiences? What other ways can we move energy more freely than it moved before we saw the shadow?

 

Looking forward to reading everyone's insights. 🙂

[Arch]

13 hours ago, Starlight said:

As soon as something is uncovered and acknowledged, perhaps we really do need to use the body, as advocated by Robert Johnson (see post 2) but not just to journal, or sing. Perhaps it needs to be a bit more intentional? Like Tai Chi, acupuncture, or something else like that?

 

I'm open to hearing other people's thoughts. How do you feel about this? What are your experiences? What other ways can we move energy more freely than it moved before we saw the shadow?

 

Looking forward to reading everyone's insights. 🙂

 

Hmm I kinda see what you are pointing at here.

Right off the bat I have to say that the lady at the Diamond Net had some very good points I agree with.

 

I think some of the articles I wrote about Archangels factor into this.

(Raphael, Netzach, Michael and Samael in particular, though the link may be a bit obscure)

To confront one's shadow is to climb higher on the tree of life.

If one wants to make use of the new level of purity that one has gotten higher up on the tree, (in the context of one's old light) one must climb back down.

Every movement up and down entails some level of sacrifice, and it is almost impossible to judge others position from the outside.

Hence it is really hard to give good advice about details of anyone else's path.

Though from the issue you bring up, I would pay attention to the contrast between Netzach and Samael and maybe also Raphael and Samael,

with Michael being a hub that negotiate between everyone. (Again it is tricky to really give relevant advice from an outside perspective)

 

As for Chi, the energy flow in the body is of course linked to this, but the connection I would say varies from person to person.

The shadow is intimately linked to the concept of karmic debt, as it is indeed the storehouse of everything we have coming for us.

Some people have big karmic debts on the level of chi, others do not, hence it is hard to say that seeing the shadow must impact free flow.

But for those it is relevant for, it can really help a lot.

I'm guessing since you brought it up, you have seen a link for you and your issues!?

 

To attack the issue from the level of energy, is to attack it from the point of sensation.

You feel the issue, without giving it a name, without thinking, labeling or judging.

It is just there, and it is impacting your being.

Of course we can never completely free our self from these things, for the mere act of trying to make energy flow more freely,

is itself a judgement that the blockage is bad and should be dealt with, there is an implicit value judgement in taking on the practice.

 

Regardless, whatever stance and association one has to the level of sensation will factor heavily into any cultivation of chi.

As it is from this level we interact and try to modify it, by sensing what is going on in our body.

Different people have different skills and talents for this, which is a big part of the shadow issue.

The lower the "natural" skills and talent for dealing with chi and sensation, the bigger the shadow and karmic debt is in this area.

People like this surely would benefit from an intentional intervention like Tai-Chi etc

 

I do agree with your notion that once you have fixed the blockage, then the chi will flow,

but although I have experienced shadow work loosening blockages to a degree,

I've yet to see them be completely fixed by it.

Blocks like these can be notoriously difficult to overcome, yet every bit helps, and part of them being difficult, is that they are maintained from so many angles.

There isn't just one factor that keeps the block in place, but rather a cluster of issues working together on many levels.

[Starlight]

@Arch - thank you so much for your post. It's taken me a couple of days to think over what you wrote and I'd like to have some more time to read through your articles so I can come back to you a bit more informed. I just want to say I really appreciate your sharing your thoughts on my question. Thank you!

Edited October 30, 2019 by Starlight

[Starlight]

On 10/29/2019 at 4:51 AM, Arch said:

I'm guessing since you brought it up, you have seen a link for you and your issues!?

Well, I'm not sure, to be honest. It's theoretical for me at the moment.

 

I suppose I was thinking that if someone is blind to something about themselves, and act from that place without conscious thought (when they feel depleted, hungry, hangry, etc.) then it seems to me that perhaps chi is not flowing in a healthy way. Trauma, I would think, would create a shadow, and it feels logical to assume that it would also affect the flow of chi. If Chi is light, by way of an anology, wouldn't shadow be something other than free-flowing chi? Or perhaps it's more accurate to say that the chi is not flowing in the best way possible. Shadow aspects have volition and energy, so they're not really lacking chi. It's just that it's not flowing the way un-shadow energies flow.

 

So then, once someone has a "breakthrough", I wondered if perhaps helping chi to 'remember' how to flow optimally through that once-shadowed space would be a beneficial practice? Do you see what I mean?

 

Or perhaps the "breakthrough" has actually just led me to peeling back an onion-layer and now I've uncovered something else, and it's that something else that has me feeling empty.

 

Do you know, as I write this, I think I've actually hit the nail on the head. It makes sense. I've uncovered a habit, and I've also uncovered why I started doing the habit. And I also discovered that it was an unhealthy habit and why and that it didn't guarantee the outcome I had unconsciously hoped it would. Of course I feel empty!! The (once-unconscious) need still exists, but the habit I once used to try and fulfil it is gone. Wow!! The power of typing and thinking!! And of having someone to talk these things through with!! Thank you again, Arch.

 

OK, I'm going to take some time with your articles, and see if it helps uncover anything more for me. 🙂

[Arch]

9 hours ago, Starlight said:

I suppose I was thinking that if someone is blind to something about themselves, and act from that place without conscious thought (when they feel depleted, hungry, hangry, etc.) then it seems to me that perhaps chi is not flowing in a healthy way. Trauma, I would think, would create a shadow, and it feels logical to assume that it would also affect the flow of chi. If Chi is light, by way of an anology, wouldn't shadow be something other than free-flowing chi? Or perhaps it's more accurate to say that the chi is not flowing in the best way possible. Shadow aspects have volition and energy, so they're not really lacking chi. It's just that it's not flowing the way un-shadow energies flow.

Yeah well say you are denying your anger over some insult or attack by someone else.

This anger gets pushed into the shadow, and consciousness forgets it.

Yet the unconscious stores the memory of it, not only that, the whole body is part of the process, not only the mind/brain.

So muscles may be unconsciously tensed up, blood-pressure might be high, hormones unbalanced etc etc

Not to mention the passive aggressive attitude we might give to other innocent parties, leading them to feed us bad moods back.

Which again create additional stressors.

 

All these things influence the energy state of the body, the energy still flow, or else we would perish, but the quality is diminished.

 

Quote

 

So then, once someone has a "breakthrough", I wondered if perhaps helping chi to 'remember' how to flow optimally through that once-shadowed space would be a beneficial practice? Do you see what I mean?

Say we go to a therapist after 10 years of holding anger in the unconscious.

We get to confront and accept the anger, perhaps we cry and such.

Yet after all that time, the secondary effects will not go away so easily as the psychological shadow.

Tension in the muscles must be addressed by Tai-Chi or Yoga, we might need a visit to the doctor to check blood pressure and other physical issues.

The body is after all a whole, and one part can impact the whole quite a lot over time.

Meaning that once we fix the original part, it may be that other parts need attention too.

 

This can go the other way too, we might get injured in an accident, maybe end up in a wheelchair.

Our mind isn't directly damaged, but the situation of sitting in a wheelchair will most often impact other area's regardless.

In other words create some shadows that are of a secondary nature to the injury.

If a medical miracle of science gets one out of the wheelchair after 10 years, then you can be sure that it isn't only the original damage that needed attention.

 

Quote

 

Or perhaps the "breakthrough" has actually just led me to peeling back an onion-layer and now I've uncovered something else, and it's that something else that has me feeling empty.

 

Do you know, as I write this, I think I've actually hit the nail on the head. It makes sense. I've uncovered a habit, and I've also uncovered why I started doing the habit. And I also discovered that it was an unhealthy habit and why and that it didn't guarantee the outcome I had unconsciously hoped it would. Of course I feel empty!! The (once-unconscious) need still exists, but the habit I once used to try and fulfil it is gone. Wow!! The power of typing and thinking!! And of having someone to talk these things through with!! Thank you again, Arch.

You are welcome, I'm glad you are having realizations! 😃

Yes that is my experience too, that I get some breakthrough, and then I'm on a new level of the "onion".

At first I don't understand what is going on, but then the new situation dawns on me, and I have to get to grips with what I find there.

I find typing stuff out on forums like this to be transformational also, if others are helped it is a bonus, but I can at least count on getting further myself.

 

Quote

OK, I'm going to take some time with your articles, and see if it helps uncover anything more for me. 🙂

Sure, I understand, they contain a lot! 🙂 

I sat for one and a half month writing those articles whenever I had time.

At the end of it, I felt that I had peeled away a couple of layers on that onion.

 

*Btw, do notice that there is 25 articles in that section now, in case you only noticed the 4 I linked.

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Arch

[Arch]

@Starlight

I've been sitting here simmering on the things I wrote, it isn't wrong, but I wanted to elaborate on some theoretical points, for more accuracy.

 

Quote

Yeah well say you are denying your anger over some insult or attack by someone else.

This anger gets pushed into the shadow, and consciousness forgets it.

 

From a Jungian perspective the shadow isn't the anger itself, as that is just a reaction/response.

The shadow is a polar opposite to some ideal self image, like for example not someone who gets angry.

Hence everything about the self that contradicts the ideal image must be hidden from consciousness.

 

We then entertain a pure angel self conception that to us are the ultimate goal of morality.

Yet to the parts of us that we deny and throw into the shadow, it is a cruel twisted mistress.

 

One of the best visual illustrations of this twisted angels I've seen in art is Grimes - Flesh without Blood.

 

 

The cold angel vs the repressed tendency in the unconscious, the lyrics are about a falling out and a lost love.

I'm unsure how aware Grimes herself is about the depth of her symbolism here, but it is a very apt symbolic representation.

The orange dress with the purple hair, also puts a pretty accurate color symbolism on the parts that are rejected.

As orange often points to the unconscious repression of desires, and purple of ideals of enlightenment that will never be attained.

 

Oh well, just me toying with concepts and symbolism in art before I go to bed. 😉

[Starlight]

12 hours ago, Arch said:

From a Jungian perspective the shadow isn't the anger itself, as that is just a reaction/response.

The shadow is a polar opposite to some ideal self image, like for example not someone who gets angry.

Interesting... So, to use your example, anger isn't the shadow? The shadow is the facade shown to others by someone who has suppressed anger? The shadow isn't what's buried, it's what has developed in response to the suppression? Am I understanding that right?

 

Which makes shadow work slightly more different than I thought - you start with what you do actually see externally (that you didn't see before) and try to work back down to what's underneath it. It also means that there has to be something about the facade that doesn't sit right. Because if it felt ok, you wouldn't see the need to discover what was beneath it.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Starlight