Lenormand or Kipper?

[ilweran]

I have a couple of Lenormand decks (Mystical and Gilded Reverie),  don't think I have a Kipper.

 

What's the difference between them in use? On the surface they appear very similar, but obviously I've not used the Kipper at all and I've only tried out the Lenormand a couple of times.

 

And can anyone recommend a Kipper? 

[Decan]

14 minutes ago, ilweran said:

And can anyone recommend a Kipper?

I have the traditional Kipper by ASS (AGM) and it is of good quality while not expensive at all.

 

Lenormand and Kipper are different but it's not like Tarot, actually more cartomantic (we read the cards from their meanings not really from the picture); for the Kipper particularly directions are important to take into account (is a particular card in the back of the significator card or in front?, these things).

For the Lenormand we can take into account directions and generally we do it but it seems less important.

I'm a bit accustomed to the Lenormand, for the Kipper it's still in my plate in order to study it a bit more.

Just my two cents!

Edited May 28, 2019 by Decan

[DanielJUK]

There is a Mystical Kipper that works beautifully with the Lenormand, you can even combine them in readings and they are the same size cards with similar artwork 🙂

There is also a Ciro Kipper called the Fin de Siècle, it has a Victorian England feel to it.

 

Kipper has many more people "character" cards than Lenormand, like the magistrate, the small child and the military person. You can use them to represent real people or a situation. Kipper is great for someone asking about their life with the characters and their motives in their life, Lenormand is great for what is going on. They are both more practical than tarot I think and very similar to each other but also have some pros and cons when using them. I started out with Lenormand but have moved over to preferring Kipper more but they both have slightly different practical applications in readings. It's really worth having one deck of each to explore for yourself

 

The only downside to Kipper is there is less books and reading materials on it and also they tend to be published only in German. I am sure it was the same with Lenormand before it became very popular recently but there are many books for it from great authors. I am hoping for some more Kipper materials.

Edited May 28, 2019 by DanielJUK

[PageOfCups]

I’m not making this recommendation out of experience because I don’t currently own a Kipper deck (although I really want to play with the different German archetypes—I still haven’t figured out my Italian Vera Sibilla cards yet).

 

HOWEVAR! If I were to ever decide to finally get a deck, this one has been on my wishlist for ages now: https://www.usgamesinc.com/Mystical-Kipper-Deck.html

 

Come to think of it, I probably saw it first here on this forum when somebody did a reading for somebody’s cat! 👩🏻🐈

[ilweran]

I've been looking at both the Mystical and the Fin de Siècle, I can see me ending up with both! Never really had any great desire to actually try either of them until recently, but I've just ordered the Scrying Ink Lenormand, it inspired me to look into it a bit further and maybe give it a go, and that led onto looking at Kipper decks and wondering about the difference...

[Flaxen]

I have and use both. Like @DanielJUK says, the Kipper has more people cards and directions are important. There is now a book available in English by Toni Puhle which is pretty good. 

If you have experience with reading Lenormand decks in the traditional style then Kipper decks are straightforward to learn. 

 

[DanielJUK]

I've seen that book around @Flaxen it seems to about the only guide to it in English apart from decks LWB leaflets! Do you own it? is it worth buying? I have thought about it before.

yes once I knew Lenormand system and combining in non Grand Tableau readings, the Kipper is easy to pick up!

[Decan]

@DanielJUK

I have Toni Puhle's book (while I still didn't finish it); it worths it I think because we don't have a lot of choice in that matter and it has qualities.

But, there are as well some points with which I’m not 100% agree but I’m just a beginner so I’m not sure.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Decan

[ilweran]

Are any of the lwb's any use or should I ignore them?

 

And does anyone have the Scrying Ink Lenormand and use it? I mainly wanted it because I love Siolo Thompson's art! I also keep eyeing up the Dreaming Way as well.

[Flaxen]

I agree with @Decan re the book. It’s nice to have a guide in English but if you are happy with google translate there are some great German sites.

 

Also, Malkiel’s videos are back on YouTube and worth watching. 

[Flaxen]

I agree with @Decan re the book. It’s nice to have a guide in English but if you are happy with google translate there are some great German sites.

 

Also, Malkiel’s videos are back on YouTube and worth watching. 

[Magrataya]

@Flaxen Could you link some of the sites? I am German but I have trouble finding some good material on Kipper (online or in books). Somehow, Kipper doesn't "click" with me, but I'm not sure whether it's the system or the learning materials I consulted.

[Flaxen]

@Magrataya, I like Susanne Zitzl’s book:

http://www.koenigsfurt-urania.com/shop/produktansicht/ein-kursus-im-kartenlegen-kipper.html

 

She did have a website but I can’t find it anymore...

[Magrataya]

1 hour ago, Flaxen said:

@Magrataya, I like Susanne Zitzl’s book:

http://www.koenigsfurt-urania.com/shop/produktansicht/ein-kursus-im-kartenlegen-kipper.html

 

She did have a website but I can’t find it anymore...

Thanks!! 🙂

[Grizabella]

I have both the Fin de Ciecle (sp?) and the Mystical both. I have the Mystical Lenormand as well as the Ciro versions of both of those. I use the Mystical set when space is limited or I'm going out somewhere. I use the Ciro decks at home.

 

Kipper can pretty much be used like the Lenormand . I've used Kipper a few times, but not very often. I like it because it's got more succinct cards. Lenormand is read in one way, but the Kipper is better for things like legal matters and such. As someone else said, there are more "people cards" than with Lenormand. In the case of Ciro's two decks, he's added extra cards. I have his expanded Lenormand and when I asked him if he was going to expand the Kipper he said no because he'd already added cards to his Kipper.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Grizabella

[katrinka]

@Flaxen I linked Susanne's site in this post

 

It's been changed quite a bit, that's probably why you had trouble finding it.

[Flaxen]

Thanks @katrinka. It does look quite different - it’s been a few years since I looked at it. 

[DanielJUK]

On 5/28/2019 at 3:16 PM, Decan said:

@DanielJUK

I have Toni Puhle's book (while I still didn't finish it); it worths it I think because we don't have a lot of choice in that matter and it has qualities.

But, there are as well many points slightly doubious:

-the "stop cards": apparently it seems that it isn't a concept really used or known apart her book...

-the directions: actually she doesn't use the traditional Kipper but her kipper where the directions are almost all reversed, and so, if we want to work with the traditional Kipper we have to reverse what she says, it's very uneasy...

-the titles: she modified most of the traditional titles of the cards

-the way she explains how to deal with Kipper for same sex relationships: oh boy, it's weird, better to avoid what she explains!

Possibly I forget one or two things, but it's what I remember for now.

 

 

Delayed reply replying but thanks so much for your review, it also made me smile Decan 🙂

I find that with most books about tarot and other divination actually, just take what you want from it and leave the rest. Ignore the really crazy stuff you don't agree with. I've never heard of the stop cards before either! This is like, way before I was online I studied the runes from a book and learnt so much and it came with runes including a blank rune and apparently the author totally invented that and it's not a traditional concept. I only found out from AT and here years later 😂

Thanks so much for this review, I want to get it one day but ignore these parts of it 😂❤️

On 5/28/2019 at 3:55 PM, ilweran said:

Are any of the lwb's any use or should I ignore them?

 

And does anyone have the Scrying Ink Lenormand and use it? I mainly wanted it because I love Siolo Thompson's art! I also keep eyeing up the Dreaming Way as well.

 

The LWB's are quite helpful, the mystical decks have a nice little white leaflet with a basic idea of each card, the Fin de Siècle has a great guidebook! I bought it as a special edition from Ciro's website and we were given a pdf book to download but I believe the massmarket one comes with that printed. It's really good because it has a traditional idea of the card, Ciro's idea and some Kipper authors with experience give their own takes. Each card has about 3 to 4 different ideas. One of the best accompanying books I have found so far.

They are all good as a guide but my problem is I want a sort of reference book for Kipper which I am going to get now I have found from this thread 🙂

On 5/28/2019 at 5:23 PM, Flaxen said:

I agree with @Decan re the book. It’s nice to have a guide in English but if you are happy with google translate there are some great German sites.

 

Also, Malkiel’s videos are back on YouTube and worth watching. 

 

thanks Flaxen ❤️

[Decan]

On 6/10/2019 at 1:48 PM, DanielJUK said:

Delayed reply replying but thanks so much for your review, it also made me smile Decan 🙂

I find that with most books about tarot and other divination actually, just take what you want from it and leave the rest. Ignore the really crazy stuff you don't agree with. I've never heard of the stop cards before either! This is like, way before I was online I studied the runes from a book and learnt so much and it came with runes including a blank rune and apparently the author totally invented that and it's not a traditional concept. I only found out from AT and here years later 😂

Thanks so much for this review, I want to get it one day but ignore these parts of it 😂❤️

Quote

 

The LWB's are quite helpful, the mystical decks have a nice little white leaflet with a basic idea of each card, the Fin de Siècle has a great guidebook!

 

Below is from what I start myself with the meanings (Katrinka is serious with that!): https://fennario.wordpress.com/2013/03/23/a-traditional-kipperkarten-primer

And from there I plan to add things from Toni's book (actually what seems the more relevant for a practical use, but yes I will have certainly to ignore this and that when I won't agree with)

Imperfection is a large part of this world I'm afraid.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Decan

[Decan]

I read again what I wrote here.

I came back to the Kipper cards lately (with the 36 Bohemian cards too) mainly because I took a little break with Lenormand which is a bit a victim of its success in some ways.

I let nevertheless Toni Puhle's book aside regarding Kipper (actually Idon't refer to it at all, whatever what could be interesting in this book, or not).

 

For the cards, Kipper by ASS (AGM) are really okay for me; the "Fin de siècle" Kipper could be an alternative but don't have it and don't find a reason to buy a copy of it. I have its app though, and the information worths the value here.

 

A "social deck" indeed, because of the many characters (and there are as well less bad cards than in the 36 Bohemian cards).

Honestly I don't really hope that there will be a craze regarding Kipper!

 

 

 

[katrinka]

I think the craze has come and gone. It just wasn't as humongous as the Lenormand pile-on. The only lasting damage has been a few bad books and decks, and a lot of people believing that there's a "True Bavarian Method" that uses "Stop Cards." (I'm not totally dissing Toni's book. It's just that no German reader I've talked to in all the years I've used Kipper had heard of "Stop Cards." Direction IS important, but you don't have to let it push you around the board.) And her ideas about gay partner cards are appalling. A feminine lesbian should not be represented by the bearded male Hauptperson, nor a gay man who identifies as 100%  MALE by the female Hauptperson. When in doubt, ASK.

Other than that her book is useful. She can read cards, which is, sadly, more than I can say about a lot of authors. She's just not the One True Way that she claims to be.

Another important difference in Lenormand and Kippers that hasn't been mentioned is that Kippers are more scenic. Lenormand images might or might not have background imagery that gives extra clues, like trees on the Park, House, Sun and Roads, as a visual cue for the "many trees" rule from the PL sheet. But the Rider is essentially about the Rider, the Clover about the Clover, etc. Kippers are more scenic. Each card can have multiple people, animals, and objects. It's a little like RWS that way, but don't go off on a tangent and say things like "I feel like she's the whip the carriage driver is holding." Everything has its own intended meaning. Here's a simple one:

 

The title translates to "Good outcome in love." And we have paired doves - that meaning is obvious. But there's a dog, too - it can also be about friendship. Ivy clings, but the fact that it's green and growing shows it's a good kind of clinging. The low wall encloses and protects, but it's not impassable. "Hold on loosely", as the old song says.

So it's not "The Birds", or "The Dog." It's about a successful relationship with someone. It might or might not have a sexual component, but it's deep.

Here's another:

 

 

It's the Meeting card. The man looks amorous. The woman is still unsure, she hasn't decided one way or another. She's still thinking about it. Now look at the Cupid on the wall, the Cupids in this deck are important. Cupid holds his arrow aloft, but we don't see his bow. The arrow isn't even nocked, the point is up, and he certainly hasn't shot it. This could progress into romance, friendship, business, or enmity. It's simply a card of getting together. Que sera sera.

 

Now, in case anyone tries to read a "Fool's journey" type numerical progression into the cards, we have No. 3: the Marriage card. We're only at 3, but this couple is already committed, and the woman is pregnant. It doesn't have to be literal, but it does indicate an established relationship, whether love, marriage, friendship, or business. There's a strong bond here:

 

Trees and mountains form a protective barrier behind their backs. There's ivy again, and a house to show that they're settled. And there's that low wall again.

So you can see it's very different from Lenormand. But it's not RWS, either. Kipper is very much its own thing, and it makes a superb reading deck.

Edited February 26, 2022 by katrinka

[Decan]

Thanks for your post here, interesting and helpful!

 

For this deck I translated the titles from German to my native language, because in German it's just something impossible for me 😁, and I needed the titles on the cards!

Edited February 26, 2022 by Decan

[katrinka]

My french is horribly limited, but that looks about right. 😁
I have them in a kind of directly translated, awkward english here, if that's easier for anyone:
https://fennario.wordpress.com/2013/03/23/a-traditional-kipperkarten-primer/

[Decan]

10 minutes ago, katrinka said:

My french is horribly limited, but that looks about right. 😁
I have them in a kind of directly translated, awkward english here, if that's easier for anyone:
https://fennario.wordpress.com/2013/03/23/a-traditional-kipperkarten-primer/

I absolutely know this page of your blog!!

[katrinka]

I thought about editing that last post about how Kipper is scenic into the lead-in part there. But Wordpress has become an unusable beast.
Maybe I'll do something on Blogger.