Nordica De Spell Posted June 29, 2019 Posted June 29, 2019 4 hours ago, Ruby Jewel said: This quote by you, Norica De Spell, "NPD isn’t essentially an ego problem; it’s an attachment problem" is essentially incorrect. Attachment needs are an ego problem. Attachment issues stem from a need for validation by another person. If one's ego is intact one's own validation is intact. The defining characteristic of narcissism is an overpowering ego which is compensation for a lack of self esteem. It is not my intent to be contrary here, but only to dispel confusion. This depends on which way you’re looking at it. Technically, the symptoms of NPD can be defined as problems, but I was referring to the cause of those symptoms as being the real problem. And far as the symptoms, I feel you’re over-simplifying it. Not only are there more symptoms than that that have to be met according to the DSM, but it goes a lot deeper and wider than being problems with the self esteem. These are people whose self isn’t even fully developed, and unless they do what they do, they’re staring into an abyss of pure existential horror, where they lose themselves... Attachment issues stem from a LACK OF validation by the people closest to us in infancy and toddler years. The need for attachment is a healthy one, and just like I wrote, babies can physically die from being denied that emotional connection. So; I guess what I wrote is incorrect to you, and to me we’re coming at it from very different angles. Which is as valid a conclusion to a discussion as anything, and we don’t necessarily have to agree on this. Just that we both has put our perspectives out there, is better than not to... In the end, we’re people whom has had first-hand experiences, though not the same ones... and if sharing from them and our processes can help someone else, then that’s the majority of what matters. That you come from a place of caring is so self-evident that I didn’t feel the need to mention it, but maybe I should have. 🌻
Nordica De Spell Posted July 1, 2019 Posted July 1, 2019 On 6/30/2019 at 1:54 AM, Ruby Jewel said: Hello Nordica...thanks for your response here. You are so right in many ways. I probably am looking at this very simplistically as that is my approach to most things in life...in particular my art. Complications irritate me so I always look for the simple "core" issue to approach any situation....for me, simplicity is a form of pure wisdom and that is why I paint simple images in space....we all have our own ways of approaching life. Also, the most compelling part of my Buddhist world is the Buddha's 4 Noble Truths which shows how our need for "attachments" are the source of all human misery so I am not inclined to see attachments in the same light as you. I know there was a time when I loved Japanese stone gardens. 🙂 There can be a great healing in simplicity and un-attachment, and especially during those times we feel compelled to. (Though yes, our individual spirits won’t go hand-in-hand there.) Blessings to you, @Ruby Jewel 🌻
Nordica De Spell Posted July 1, 2019 Posted July 1, 2019 (edited) On 6/30/2019 at 12:40 AM, Halcyon said: They actually like to be with someone who others admire, someone strong and self-confident (which I WAS) because that is simply a reflection of the narc himself. and the CN gets his power by slowly sucking the life force out of his significant other (hence the term energy vampire). Yes, that is one alternative. Like you say, it doesn’t matter how strong and self-confident you are, if you don’t share their brain dysfunction, eventually you’re gonna be worn down living with them. 😞 (Another alternative is when the covert narcissist gets together with an overt narcissist; which means they fuel eachother in a perpetual cycle of NS going round and round.) *** I’m glad you understand that the fault wasn’t with you. And that you can remember whom you were before you met him. Abusers pretty much follow a pattern for a reason. It doesn’t matter if you are well educated and should know about these things, such as a judge or a physician. Or if you come from a supported background, where you have loved ones whom would catch you. Or again, have great self esteem, and a strong person. Whether you’re outgoing, with a great social network. Etc. They pick that apart. Just like you say, they wear you down, and it’s a slow process of normalizing that which ISN’T IN REALITY NORMAL. Even the judge could be in court on an abuser case, and NOT make that same correlation with their own relationship at home. Is how absolutely insidious and un-detectable it can be. (At least in the beginning stages, and in the later stages there’s so much brainwash...) This has happened to millions of people over the course of history. It’s a common pattern and don’t put any guilt or shame on yourself. (You couldn’t have prevented it, but you’re now in a place where you’ve taken all those steps away... And those first steps are the hardest steps... You could do that because you’re STILL strong, and you STILL have your self esteem, it’s there inside, somewhere!! (Dear Halcyon; what he cut down has hid all this time well protected under the soil, and it will grow back and bloom again one day!! And you’ll see; your garden will be much better and richer than it feels right now. 🌻🌹🌹🌻 Edited July 1, 2019 by Nordica De Spell
Halcyon Posted July 1, 2019 Author Posted July 1, 2019 1 hour ago, Nordica De Spell said: Yes, that is one alternative. Like you say, it doesn’t matter how strong and self-confident you You could do that because you’re STILL strong, and you STILL have your self esteem, it’s there inside, somewhere!! (Dear Halcyon; what he cut down has hid all this time well protected under the soil, and it will grow back and bloom again one day!! And you’ll see; your garden will be much better and richer than it feels right now. 🌻🌹🌹🌻 This poem always touches me and you made me think of it. Thank you.
Halcyon Posted July 2, 2019 Author Posted July 2, 2019 11 hours ago, Ruby Jewel said: The judge will determine what is fair....not him. Let the judge decide and just accept their decision and free yourself. It isn't worth the problems you are letting him create for you. You need to take control of this situation and finish it off at any cost b/c it can get very dangerous the longer it goes on. That is the best advice I know. Katy made her mind up and severed the cord with calculation and precision before he had a chance to say anything at all. Of course I wouldn't expect anything less from a Sagittarius with a Scorpio moon.....which is what Katie Holmes is. When I discovered that I just sat back and enjoyed watching it unfold. We are not in court. We are in mediation. We sit in two rooms, each of us with out lawyer, and the mediator goes back and forth trying to negotiate a deal. We have had two of these kediation sessions and a third one is scheduled for mid August. So no judge. It's on us and our lawyers to negotiate a deal that both parties will sign off on. And he is making ridiculous demands. The mediator recognizes his demands are not fair, but he won't budge. My decision is to accept these demands or file and go to court and let a judge decide. That will take longer, be more costly, and drag this out for both my children and myself.
Czenzi Posted July 2, 2019 Posted July 2, 2019 (edited) On 6/13/2019 at 11:50 AM, Halcyon said: I am working with Face Up spreads as described by Mary Greer to work on recovering from a long relationship with a covert narcissist. I am re-learning how to trust myself and set strong boundaries. I am exploring my own inner peace and strength. What cards would you say embody these qualities of strength, inner peace, and self love? I was raised with a father who has very strong narcissistic tendencies as do other members of my extended family. Boundary setting is a huge thing for me and I am still learning how to do it. It’s definitely impeded some of my potential romantic relationships in a way, but I need to be very secure in what I will and will not allow. Tarot has really helped me, but I don’t know that there’s a single card that to me demonstrates the qualities you are discussing. A lot of times it is very situational based on the question that I am asking to facilitate my own inner work. That said, I connect strongly with the hermit because it signals to me that I am doing the inner work that will guide me. Similarly, the high priestess teaches me to trust my instincts. Sometimes the seven of wands is a good indicator that I need to stand up for what I believe. The strength card also makes sense as a reminder of my own strength and worth. The ten of wands has taught me in the past not to carry someone else’s burdens. The four of pentacles is usually a good indicator to me that there is someone who is emotionally distant, miserly and selfish. The devil also shows the addiction of ego and codependency, as I think someone above has mentioned. I’ve had to do a lot of work recently with the idea of moving on. I have been pulling a lot of cards associated with that like death, the five of cups, the eight of cups and the six of swords. Moving on has always been very hard for me because I’m the type of person that wants things to work even when I know that the other person is emotionally unable. Seeing those cards can sometimes be very difficult, but I know it’s a lesson that I need to learn. These are all my personal readings of the cards, and most of them have been dependent on a particular question or situation. I also realize that there are far better readers on this board than me. Still, I hope this helps answer your question a little. Edited July 2, 2019 by Czenzi
Nordica De Spell Posted July 3, 2019 Posted July 3, 2019 (edited) On 7/1/2019 at 9:43 PM, Ruby Jewel said: So, Nordica De Spell, I see you understand a little of where I come from. A lot of people have problems with my way of seeing things, so over the years I have found it best just to say what I need to say and let whatever happens alone. I have learned about Narcissism only recently from Utube videos....and I have watched a lot of them. Otherwise, I never would have realized the danger I have been in all these years. The biggest danger is that of provoking these guys.....they are dangerous setup artists and I realized that, fortunately, in time not to meet the fate of two other persons (I'm highly suspicious it is 3) involved with these guys who did NOT survive.....physically. They give no clue whatsoever; but, luckily, I saw the two setup scenarios that were set up for me. I have a strong feeling I am being protected by the universe. Hence, my advice is to find a way to avoid reactionary responses to these people b/c it is dangerous. When one goes "no contact," it needs to be just that: just simply walk away and do not look back. One must give up thinking about it all trying to figure it out, etc. When I was finally "discarded" by this narcissist with no explanation whatsoever...but shocked nonetheless, I let him have his big "ego fix" and played along just so he would go away permanently. They want to believe you are suffering....so I was very passive and silent, pretending I was just hurt, but still in love. It has only been about 3 months so I'm still a little apprehensive he will try to come back, but I really don't think he has the nerve to try now. Once you fear someone, there is no room left for love. But if you continue thinking about them, you will continue vascillating between whether you are right or wrong......that is part of the danger....it is so hard to know for sure. So, I wasn't advising Halcyon to "go happily along"..... I'm saying open your eyes b/c there is no love here.....nothing to be sad or even angry about. Be thankful that you woke up. Stopping the thought process is one of the hardest parts of this and I found a simple key that worked for me was to "become disinterested." If you can pull that off it works almost magically....for the first time in decades I found myself "forgetting" to think about it. These people are truly frightening when you understand and "see"...... they are way too clever in hiding it....and they are smooth. Two good examples are Jim Jones and Chris Watts. It is almost impossible to see through their suave "soft-sell" personalities. They seem to be very soft spoken and passive, but that is a facade. They are seething with anger and hate inside. That is nothing to play around with....or to be sad or hurt over... there is really no time for that if you want to survive. So, now perhaps you may understand where I was coming from in my original post. Believe me, I am as far from being a Pollyanna as a black mamma bear. My friends who know about my life history call me a "survivor." Whenever I am able to pay back the universe, I put my highly controversial thoughts out there, but I cannot control how they are perceived and trying to explain them under controversial conditions is pointless. Thank you so much for your blessings. I appreciate very much such kind thoughts. Dear @Ruby Jewel! NPD, the way I understand it, is a scale where I’d say there’s definitely a connection with latent psychopathy in one end, (and just to be correct — in the case of co-morbidity more than a touch of active conscious viciousness.) Those on that end of it, would probably fit your description very well. (I’m personally acquainted with one of those, and thankfully she is a rare example.) In your case, where there’s also a situation around that (as you describe) my advice would actually be 100% the same as yours, and aligned with the steps you’ve already taken in your life. So, I’m so glad you followed your inner voice on that one. And I’m very sorry you met those. Plus, I don’t know Tom Cruise, but of what I hear is you’re looking for strong and positive role models that have commendably dealt with a situation similar to yours, and that’s always a good idea for personal empowerment! (Thank you for sharing these positive stories you’ve found with us, of what seems a remarkably strong woman!) Edited July 3, 2019 by Nordica De Spell
Nordica De Spell Posted July 3, 2019 Posted July 3, 2019 Dear @Ruby Jewel: It’s understandable that you choose not to go into discussions when you feel that they might turn into debate. In my view, it’s possible to have differing spiritual directives, and yet listen to eachother. Not necessarily in an attempt to agree, but just in an attempt to reach and understand eachother... BUT when we meet with neither understanding nor agreement, and noone try to meet us where we are at inside; that’s lonely. And yes, with this we can agree, that that absolutely sucks. 😞 (In general, I think that the feeling of estrangement that it produces is very common, AND that most of us could learn to listen more!) *** Well also, I think it’s very on topic in a discussion on narcissism, because there was never a time I felt so alone, as when I tried to walk the bridge between myself and someone with NPD. It’s like I called out into the night, and there was no response. When you say that there’s no love there, I get it that you reference to the reality inside of one with NPD. That there is mainly only anger and hatred under their mask, etc. And it’s just better and more adviceable for oneself to emotionally let go. To not hold on to an illusion that there’s something there. Just pack up, and get out. Quit letting them hurt you, anymore. Which absolutely is very logical, in some situations is down-right necessary, and is also part of at least some spiritual philosophies I know of. My point is, that there IS love there. It’s within our own hearts, and some of us has a life story and a history where that’s generated and is generating a lot of deep feelings. It can be that it’s a parent, or a very long marriage, etc. Becoming disinterested, though valuable advice, doesn’t fit every situation, or in every timing of it. There’s also a constructive side to emotion: Bitterness; well if you accidentally swallow a toxin, the gag reflex can be a lifesaver! Upset; yes, someone should be upset for your inner child’s sake for what the h*** they were put through!!! Even if that someone has to be your adult self. Just toss that d***l out, and for as long as you like and need. Sadness; can be an inner life-long reality, for some of us. Just to acknowledge that dimension of my Heart and of my history, and of someone else’s Heart and history, is a way for me of hearing and understanding myself. I acknowledge this; and that some of our differing perspectives might be that we’re not currently found in the same spiritual direction, you and I. (And the reason we’re not, could very well be at least a bit due to differing experiences and temperaments and so on.) But indeed, I have travelled some where I think you are at. With your beliefs you’ve expressed here, honestly they don’t seem controversial to me. And I really want to add that even though our individual perspectives and spiritual preferences are not all of them the same, I haven’t thought of you as being a Pollyanna, it hasn’t crossed my mind even once! So please, I hope that I haven’t been the one to give you that idea. You don’t come across that way to me, at all. 🙂
Nordica De Spell Posted July 3, 2019 Posted July 3, 2019 (edited) Sorry that this is a bit OT from the tarot card aspect. It seems we are quite a few whom had these experiences, and it can be difficult to stay on topic. Synchronous case in point: You know, @Halcyon, the morning after I wrote you that post of how people can be abused irregardless of what they work with and their education surrounding that, there was an article in the newspaper: It was of a Police Officer woman whom had stayed under horridly abusive circumstance, physically and psychologically, for 17 years. Meanwhile, through her work she had met with many abused women; and her advice to them had always been to get out. But she didn’t dare to tell anyone in her own circumstance, and thought her partner could change, like he promised. Eventually, she got out though, and like many of us she can regret the time spent, but feel blessed that she’s one of those whom survived and got a new chance. Nowadays, she shouts about it from the rooftops! She’s still a Police Officer, and also runs a blog about these experiences! Edited July 3, 2019 by Nordica De Spell
Nordica De Spell Posted July 4, 2019 Posted July 4, 2019 12 hours ago, Ruby Jewel said: Thanks for your kind thoughts here. When I said there was no love in the psychopath, who is a narcissist, I meant they are incapable of emotion. That part of their brain does not work. When tested, it was found there is no activity in the part of a narcissist's brain where that emotion resides. It is actually very sad. Also, after having gone through so much with this last relationship where I was completely convinced he was a soul mate b/c that is how my readings and other readers kept interpreting the cards, I eventually realized the "soul mate" and "twin flame" concepts do a lot of psychological damage to querents. Those concepts really only prolonged the fantasy of my personal soul mate experience which took place over a long time and a whole lot of readings that kept telling me that this was a "soul mate" connection. Thus my experience with the fantasy I was in has changed the way I interpret the cards now....and perhaps my entire perspective on life and love in general. I no longer read the Cups in reference to "love" but in reference to "fantasy". The Queen of Cups lives in a fantasy world....as depicted by the card itself. I learned early in life that the idea of romantic love is a fairytale that we were inoculated with as young women, usually through romance novels and romance magazines. It is rare that the so-called passion lasts a lifetime, but whenever I have seen it last, it was b/c of a deep respect for one another and a psychological maturity. Certainly my life experiences of "falling in love" have all turned out to be fantasies. And not just mine, but everywhere I look with friends, family and even on these tarot forums. And, of course, this conclusion did not come out of nowhere. As a Jungian scholar I am acutely aware of the concepts of projection and transference, which are fantasies that take place in the minds of those patients and students who fall in love with their therapists or their teachers, or some individual whom they have idolized. This is the reason the NP's love bombing works so well, and also why narcissism is so rampant in colleges, etc. My entire life has been a matter of evolving from a broken child into a wise woman. I never doubt that these experiences I go through are a part of that growth, or individuation, if you prefer. I believe we are living our karma.....caught on the Wheel of Fortune and repeating the same old cycles in life.....until we awaken and learn our lesson......and move into a newer, healthier and wiser way of experiencing this life. So, I am always thankful for my experiences, good or bad and I try to learn from them. The Tarot has been a fantastic tool for me in this endeavor, and this recent experience with the narcissist and the cards has opened my eyes to the true meanings inherent in this wonderful deck of cards, and in particular the true meaning of the suit of Cups. I’m glad that you feel that you have in The Tarot a fantastic tool, and I think that the important thing here is that you are on a journey that works for you. It’s absolutely not of importance that not totally everyone connects the dots the same. As long as it’s of use in your healing journey, that’s what I believe in matters. Of course, it could be of some use that you’re open to the possibility that what’s true now, could change yet again... But I think from your brave life story so far, that you are. And I just think that you’re fully capable of steering your own ship! *** (In turn, I wanted to share a little bit of what I believe in, but what comes up with that right now, is a song: Simply put, my journey is about aligning with love, and the only thing that I hope for with Spirituality, is to do that more and more, and in a wholesome way.)
Nordica De Spell Posted July 5, 2019 Posted July 5, 2019 @Ruby Jewel, Thanks for sharing of your thoughts. 🌼 I guess the video was an attempt of an illustration of how I feel spiritually and emotionally, especially in regards to this reality about dysfunctions and illnesses and so on. And recently I’ve been feeling down, so there is that sad aspect there, right now. I can say that I do not at all think the same way as you on these things, or make those same conclusions, which you probably guessed. 🙂 Also, I can’t answer those biggies for anyone else... I just follow my heart and my spirit and over the years I have my clear answers, and those are very personal though. But, in my experience, resonance is a strong force, and if something doesn’t ring true, it’s maybe not right for oneself, or not right for oneself in that point in space and time. I’m off to go do some tarot now, and if I can find some reference to tarot cards in the capacity of healing from abuse, from my perspective, I’ll post more in this thread. But I also feel that I must distance myself a bit from the discussion on narcissism etc, because I don’t want to think about those things too much! I hope you all understand! 🌻 🌻
Purplemystic Posted March 14, 2020 Posted March 14, 2020 I'm following this thread because I'm in recovery too from narcissist abuse. I will never truly recover it will take years. Tarot has helped me tremendously with the start of my healing.
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