Royalalbatross Posted July 5, 2019 Posted July 5, 2019 Hi everyone! I recently became interested in the symbols and meanings (and also games) of tarot cards. I particularly like the Italian and Swiss types. My interest in history and art has helped me a bit; for instance the Death card to me looked immediately like a renaissance “memento mori” (remember death will come to us all, how would that affect your actions today?). Are there any books or sources where they focus on such historical interpretations? Thank you!
McFaire Posted July 5, 2019 Posted July 5, 2019 Hello and welcome 🙂 I really like Robert Place's Tarot: History, Symbolism, and Divination. It's one that I go back to frequently.
katrinka Posted July 5, 2019 Posted July 5, 2019 He's only recently moved to Blogspot, and so there isn't a LOT here yet, but I've gotten a lot of solid historical information from Andy over the years. It's well worth bookmarking! http://abcartomancy.blogspot.com/ Jean-Michel is another go-to. https://www.fourhares.com/
Royalalbatross Posted July 5, 2019 Author Posted July 5, 2019 1 hour ago, McFaire said: Hello and welcome 🙂 I really like Robert Place's Tarot: History, Symbolism, and Divination. It's one that I go back to frequently. Thank you! Oh wow, that book looks good.
McFaire Posted July 5, 2019 Posted July 5, 2019 49 minutes ago, Royalalbatross said: Thank you! Oh wow, that book looks good. Yes, it's thoroughly researched and the author gives his sources. Robert Place is quite a tarot scholar, author, and deck creator. He is probably most well known for his Alchemical Tarot.
Raggydoll Posted July 5, 2019 Posted July 5, 2019 I second Robert M Places book, but we mustn’t forget this one by Paul Huson. It’s way more in depth. https://www.amazon.com/Mystical-Origins-Tarot-Ancient-Modern/dp/0892811900
Royalalbatross Posted July 5, 2019 Author Posted July 5, 2019 48 minutes ago, Raggydoll said: I second Robert M Places book, but we mustn’t forget this one by Paul Huson. It’s way more in depth. https://www.amazon.com/Mystical-Origins-Tarot-Ancient-Modern/dp/0892811900 Yes, that looks interesting too. Thank you for the suggestions everyone!
Royalalbatross Posted July 7, 2019 Author Posted July 7, 2019 Is"Untold Tarot" by Matthews any good? I like the description of it on Amazon.
gregory Posted July 7, 2019 Posted July 7, 2019 It's - OK but no cigar from me. http://cartomancy.forumotion.com/t8492-caitlin-matthews-new-traditional-tarot-book I quote from Barleywine; I hope he doesn't mind - as I rather agree with him: Quote I'm half-way through this now and, to be honest, I had hoped for more out of it. It is beautifully produced and a pleasure to hold in the hand. But I'm not finding much of it revelatory, and many of the examples leave me unconvinced that she really has her finger on the pulse of the TdM. Too much of it seems like stuff that she simply invented to fill a perceived void in the interpretation of traditional decks. Much of it makes me scratch my head, or shake it. I do recognize that some of it is derived from playing-card cartomancy, but I'm getting the feeling that I should be investing my time in that and making my own conversion into tarot terms rather than placing my faith in Matthews. At least some of the tables are useful, and she gives suit and number blending its due. Hie did later publish a full review: https://parsifalswheeldivination.com/2019/02/06/morning-coffee-and-caitlin/
Raggydoll Posted July 7, 2019 Posted July 7, 2019 @gregory Thanks for sharing! What a thorough review @Barleywine ! I believe Benebell Wen has a similar approach to some of her court cards where she instructs you to add an extra card to divulge the message brought by that court card. (As you probably can tell, I haven’t received my own copy of Benebells deck yet and that’s why I am explaining it so poorly. But I have seen @Flaxen use that method in some of her readings and it made a lot of sense. Maybe she will pop by and explain it better!) So I suspect that Benebell and Caitlin might have had a common source of inspiration, or it might have been a case of “great minds think alike”
Flaxen Posted July 7, 2019 Posted July 7, 2019 Benebell’s approach is that the cards are living spirits who represent that particular quality (although she is quite happy if others prefer to take a more psychological approach with the deck she created). The Court Cards in her system are seen as beneficent spirits (angels, ancestors, loa etc). The Pages act as messengers for divinities from their realm. When a Page appears in a reading, another card is pulled to see what the specific message is. It’s not an approach I’ve taken in the past with the Courts (apart from the Druidcraft where some of them have an uncanny resemblance to deceased family members) but it’s working well as a system for me.
Raggydoll Posted July 7, 2019 Posted July 7, 2019 Thank you @Flaxen! I’m excited to test out this approach when my deck arrives. It does make sense to me and I might try it with other decks as well.
Rabbithorns Posted July 8, 2019 Posted July 8, 2019 This is very exciting. I have also been very interested in reading more about the original uses of tarot cards for games (and how to play them) and the history of how they got their particular divinatory meanings from whoever made it all up in the 1700s or so. Historically, it looks like it came out of nowhere, so I wonder if the system was devised from some other divinatory practice that was applied to the common playing cards of the era. I'll check out the books listed above.
Royalalbatross Posted July 8, 2019 Author Posted July 8, 2019 3 hours ago, Rabbithorns said: This is very exciting. I have also been very interested in reading more about the original uses of tarot cards for games (and how to play them) and the history of how they got their particular divinatory meanings from whoever made it all up in the 1700s or so. Historically, it looks like it came out of nowhere, so I wonder if the system was devised from some other divinatory practice that was applied to the common playing cards of the era. I'll check out the books listed above. I have started reading into this. Tarot cards are known from the 1400s but were probably invented in the late 1300s (or maybe early 1400s). Most sources agree that the original intent was for games. HOWEVER many of the images are clearly allegorical. One of the most striking examples to me is the Death card, which looks to me exactly like the typical memento mori images you find around that time, and are made to make you reflect about your life, how everything is transitory etc. Also, although most of the early games were probably similar to modern Scarto, some of the other early games were apparently a sort of story-telling game, which I would think could lead naturally towards divination. There does not seem to be any sources that explicitly talk about tarot divination until the 1700s though, as you mentioned, but it could have been a common practice before that.
Rabbithorns Posted July 8, 2019 Posted July 8, 2019 Thanks @Royalalbatross, after so many years of reading, I never really delved into this kind of history. I think I'm just fascinated more as I get older about how the human makes meaning out of pretty much anything it can find. I'm intrigued. And the whole major arcana as part of a game, well, there would have to be some sort of narrative rather than just a card value, I would think. I think of how we take on the mood of a character or show when we read a book or watch a movie. I suspect, in times with less stimulus from imagery, perhaps a good card game with these images would tell a story and leave a player with a mood based on the cards that have come up in their hand or the narrative it has told throughout the game. I wonder if that was actually a part of the game. Just speculation on my part. And based entirely on how women, in particular, would love the distraction of the story to make their lives more exciting, what with all that boring needlework to sit through. Hahaha! I'm an embroiderer and hand stitcher, but i wouldn't want to have been forced to accomplish it quietly and corseted on a daily basis.
Royalalbatross Posted July 8, 2019 Author Posted July 8, 2019 1 hour ago, Rabbithorns said: Thanks @Royalalbatross, after so many years of reading, I never really delved into this kind of history. I think I'm just fascinated more as I get older about how the human makes meaning out of pretty much anything it can find. I'm intrigued. And the whole major arcana as part of a game, well, there would have to be some sort of narrative rather than just a card value, I would think. I think of how we take on the mood of a character or show when we read a book or watch a movie. I suspect, in times with less stimulus from imagery, perhaps a good card game with these images would tell a story and leave a player with a mood based on the cards that have come up in their hand or the narrative it has told throughout the game. I wonder if that was actually a part of the game. Just speculation on my part. And based entirely on how women, in particular, would love the distraction of the story to make their lives more exciting, what with all that boring needlework to sit through. Hahaha! I'm an embroiderer and hand stitcher, but i wouldn't want to have been forced to accomplish it quietly and corseted on a daily basis. I am still no expert (waiting for more books to arrive 😉 ) but as a hunch based on what I have found so far; what you are saying about how people were intrigued by the cards that were in their hands during gameplay I suspect is dead on. Even if it was not part of the rules per se (but who knows), it was probably a big part of the attraction of the games, and an excellent conversation starter after the game.
katrinka Posted July 10, 2019 Posted July 10, 2019 This is pure conjecture, but I always had a mental image of some woman's husband sleeping in because he'd been drinking and playing cards with guests into the wee hours. Wifey is up early, and goes to the area where they were gaming to clean up. She has something weighing on her mind, and so she cuts the deck to see if she gets a good card or not, and what it is... It's human nature to look for signs. So while there is no historical evidence that people were reading almost from the beginning, I'm sure some were. And if you haven't done this already. try doing a google search on "emblem books" one day when you have the time to go exploring a network of google rabbit holes. Some of the images are quite similar to Tarot, and each of them has some kind of meaning. Often preachy and sanctimonious, lol, but a meaning nonetheless. As for Matthew's book, it depends what you're looking for. It's certainly the most practical manual for actually reading the TdM, rather than a collection of the author's poetical musings (which are interesting, especially in Jodo's case, but they may not tell you for sure whether there's a new job or boyfriend in the offing.) It's a reference volume, and actually my favorite of the Matthewes books I've read thus far, I like it much better than her Lenormand book. And there are some fascinating insights, like this one on La Lune: "The card contains a rebus that only makes sense if you speak french. The two canines baying at the moon are a rebus of entre chien et loup, or "between dog and wolf", an expression that is used of twilight when colors become indistinguishable from each other..." "...under the influence of the moon we sometimes cannot determine one thing from another. In this indeterminent space we fall into surmise or superstition in which inchoate fears arise." - Caitlin Matthews, The Untold Tarot
Eric13 Posted July 11, 2019 Posted July 11, 2019 @Royalalbatross The Death card in RWS decks is said to have been influenced by the Knights Templar, also why it is number 13. Something fun to research. Not many books touch on this.
Royalalbatross Posted July 11, 2019 Author Posted July 11, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, katrinka said: This is pure conjecture, but I always had a mental image of some woman's husband sleeping in because he'd been drinking and playing cards with guests into the wee hours. Wifey is up early, and goes to the area where they were gaming to clean up. She has something weighing on her mind, and so she cuts the deck to see if she gets a good card or not, and what it is... It's human nature to look for signs. So while there is no historical evidence that people were reading almost from the beginning, I'm sure some were. And if you haven't done this already. try doing a google search on "emblem books" one day when you have the time to go exploring a network of google rabbit holes. Some of the images are quite similar to Tarot, and each of them has some kind of meaning. Often preachy and sanctimonious, lol, but a meaning nonetheless. As for Matthew's book, it depends what you're looking for. It's certainly the most practical manual for actually reading the TdM, rather than a collection of the author's poetical musings (which are interesting, especially in Jodo's case, but they may not tell you for sure whether there's a new job or boyfriend in the offing.) It's a reference volume, and actually my favorite of the Matthewes books I've read thus far, I like it much better than her Lenormand book. And there are some fascinating insights, like this one on La Lune: "The card contains a rebus that only makes sense if you speak french. The two canines baying at the moon are a rebus of entre chien et loup, or "between dog and wolf", an expression that is used of twilight when colors become indistinguishable from each other..." "...under the influence of the moon we sometimes cannot determine one thing from another. In this indeterminent space we fall into surmise or superstition in which inchoate fears arise." - Caitlin Matthews, The Untold Tarot Emblem books, how interesting! Yes some of those images look very similar. Speaking of the moon card; I was puzzled by the crustacean on it, until my biologist brain reminded me “it looks like a crayfish or lobster, and these are nocturnal. Fishermen would have known that night was the time that they enter their traps” 🙂 Of course it could also be a reference to cancer in astrology, as according to one of my books. Edited July 11, 2019 by Royalalbatross
Royalalbatross Posted July 11, 2019 Author Posted July 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Joe said: @Royalalbatross The Death card in RWS decks is said to have been influenced by the Knights Templar, also why it is number 13. Something fun to research. Not many books touch on this. Anything is possible. For older decks, this is the first card that I felt I recognized from art history. To me it looks like a memento mori image, which was popular in the renaissance.
Guest Posted July 11, 2019 Posted July 11, 2019 (edited) On 7/8/2019 at 2:35 AM, Rabbithorns said: This is very exciting. I have also been very interested in reading more about the original uses of tarot cards for games (and how to play them) and the history of how they got their particular divinatory meanings from whoever made it all up in the 1700s or so. Historically, it looks like it came out of nowhere, so I wonder if the system was devised from some other divinatory practice that was applied to the common playing cards of the era. I'll check out the books listed above. Hello, Rabbithorns 1. A comprehensive collection of tarot card games is available at https://www.pagat.com/tarot/. Three of my personal favourites to date are scarto, troggu, and the French jeu de tarot (literally, game of tarot). - One can currently play scarto online by visiting http://scarto.sharpness.net/. - One can currently download an application for Windows with which to play troggu from https://thanoscardgames.jimdo.com/download/point-trick-taking/troggu/ - One can currently download applications for android with which to play jeu de tarot by visiting the Google Play Store. 2. The oldest methods for fortune-telling with tarot cards of which I am aware are the methods that appear to have been developed in Bologna, Italy, for use with the Tarocco Bolognese. An article on one such method is available in Italian at http://www.labirintoermetico.com/02Tarocchi/tarocchino_bolognese/tarocchino_bolognese.htm (since I do not speak Italian, I had to use Google Translate). The aforesaid article served as one source of inspirations as I began defining my own method for interpreting tarot cards. I briefly describe the said method, which I currently designate the sequential method, on the following page of my blog: https://diaryofafortuneteller.wordpress.com/the-sequential-method/ Regards KevinM Edited July 11, 2019 by Guest
Guest Posted July 11, 2019 Posted July 11, 2019 (edited) I should mention also, since you express an interest in iconography, that I recently authored an article on the iconography of The Star: The aforesaid article demonstrates that one can adequately explain the the iconography of the trump cards in contexts other than those of alchemy, astrology, Cabbalism, Hermeticism, or Neoplatonism. Regards KevinM Edited July 11, 2019 by Guest
katrinka Posted July 11, 2019 Posted July 11, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, KevinM said: 2. The oldest methods for fortune-telling with tarot cards of which I am aware are the methods that appear to have been developed in Bologna, Italy, for use with the Tarocco Bolognese. An article on one such method is available in Italian at http://www.labirintoermetico.com/02Tarocchi/tarocchino_bolognese/tarocchino_bolognese.htm (since I do not speak Italian, I had to use Google Translate). Thanks for this! Some of the translation is a little wonky ("door hammer"? I wonder if that's a door knocker) but I think an understanding of the problematic words could be had here https://dictionary.reverso.net/ The first methods are surely lost in time. We only have what got written down. Not everyone was a showboater like Etteilla, or even literate. But it's great having this link. Bookmarked! Quote The aforesaid article inspired me to begin defining my own method, which I briefly describe on the following page of my blog: https://diaryofafortuneteller.wordpress.com/the-sequential-method/ Well, hello - I remember Mirror of Cartomancy. There was some excellent information there! I'll be watching this newer blog. Edited July 11, 2019 by katrinka
Royalalbatross Posted July 11, 2019 Author Posted July 11, 2019 4 hours ago, KevinM said: Hello, Rabbithorns 1. A comprehensive collection of tarot card games is available at https://www.pagat.com/tarot/. Three of my personal favourites to date are scarto, troggu, and the French jeu de tarot (literally, game of tarot). - One can currently play scarto online by visiting http://scarto.sharpness.net/. - One can currently download an application for Windows with which to play troggu from https://thanoscardgames.jimdo.com/download/point-trick-taking/troggu/ - One can currently download applications for android with which to play jeu de tarot by visiting the Google Play Store. 2. The oldest methods for fortune-telling with tarot cards of which I am aware are the methods that appear to have been developed in Bologna, Italy, for use with the Tarocco Bolognese. An article on one such method is available in Italian at http://www.labirintoermetico.com/02Tarocchi/tarocchino_bolognese/tarocchino_bolognese.htm (since I do not speak Italian, I had to use Google Translate). The aforesaid article served as one source of inspirations as I began defining my own method for interpreting tarot cards. I briefly describe the said method, which I currently designate the sequential method, on the following page of my blog: https://diaryofafortuneteller.wordpress.com/the-sequential-method/ Regards KevinM Very interesting. Thanks for sharing! Many of the old interpretations are so straightforward that going to a reading must have been a scary thing 🙂
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