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Translations of Keywords Written On Known Historical Tdm Decks


Decan

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If the annotations are from a house worker for example (speculation, but possible!), I imagine that a Tarot deck represented some money for him/her (I don't know if a deck was something expensive or not in the past?), hence the owner didn't write "bad words" on it.

For the first deck (the other one), there are bad stripes on it, so the owner didn't care much about it probably.

14 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I’m not sure how they went about assigning that handwriting to him other than that the deck was in his possession?

The BNF doesn't precise that the writtings are by Paul Marteau, but just that he was the last owner and that this deck was from his collection.

For the other deck mentioned it is said that the writtings are attributed to Mlle Lenormand (but "attributed to" doesn't particularly indicate that there was an indentification by the book, while there are likely certain assumptions I guess).

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On 8/2/2019 at 11:42 AM, Decan said:

 

 

V The Pope (Jupiter)

 

What JUPITER doing here ?

 

Jupiter on trump №5 in Besançon pattern decks, not in TdM !

 

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I'm sure there must have been a bit of cross-pollination?
Speaking of Bensancon, there's a lovely one at the British Museum, very nicely colored. This one's been written on, too. It seems to be a common practice, pre-plastification.  https://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?partid=1&assetid=962370001&objectid=3339008#more-views

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46 minutes ago, Decan said:

I don't know; the annotations seem to refer tho the Pope card but card 5 is named Jupiter and the Popess is named Junon.

Trums JUPITER(5) and JUNO(2) fom TdB (Tarot de Besançon). Not from TdM.  These are close patterns, but not the same … Papa was replaced by Jupiter and Papessa by Juno for special political reasons ...

Accordingly, if you are doing fortune telling on these decks, then the meanings will be different. Jupiter is not the pope (and vice versa).


 
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4 hours ago, D76 said:

Trums JUPITER(5) and JUNO(2) fom TdB (Tarot de Besançon). Not from TdM.  These are close patterns, but not the same … Papa was replaced by Jupiter and Papessa by Juno for special political reasons ...

Accordingly, if you are doing fortune telling on these decks, then the meanings will be different. Jupiter is not the pope (and vice versa).



 

Yes I guess; on my part I don't use regularly the TdM (and I don't have a Tarot de Besançon). I'm just looking at what is written on these cards without real personal elaborations or just the minimum!

 

Okay some more cards!

 

VII The Chariot

Just one word on this card, easy!

-upper half: "Triomphe”> “Triumph”

 

VIII Justice

-throughout the card (at the top and upper half): “droiture, droiture”, “procès”, “20 divorce”> "rectitude" (this word is written twice on the card), trial, (with the judgment card, the) 20: divorce

 

IX the Hermit

Very nice here: only 2 words and easy to read!

-upper half: “prudence, vertu”> “prudence/caution, virtue”

 

X The Wheel of Fortune

Interesting here because there are words for the card upright, but also words written upside down, so the owner was reading reversal his/her cards.

-throughout the card (at the top and upper half): "destin, fortune", "élévation", "chance"> "destiny, fortune", "elevation", "luck"

-on the lower half: “jeu hasard” (for “jeu de hasard”), “or argent loterie”> “game of chance”, “gold, silver, lottery”

Reversed: “chance, or et argent” “loterie”, “jeu”, “or argent loterie”> the words are the same than for the card upright (so this means that reversed the Wheel was considered positive and not as bad luck): “luck, gold and silver” “lottery”, “game” (for game of chance), “gold, silver, lottery” (these words are written twice)

Edited by Decan
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@Decan That’s so interesting with the reversed card not having a negative spin!! And I also love seeing the different suggestions for card combinations. It shows the way this person viewed card interactions and it feels rather straightforward I must say. So far there’s a rhyme and reason to everything. 

 

Also, I must thank you for outlining things so clearly that we are all able to follow along. I’m really appreciative of the work you put in here!!’

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4 hours ago, D76 said:

Accordingly, if you are doing fortune telling on these decks, then the meanings will be different. Jupiter is not the pope (and vice versa).

Not true: some French authors claim the symbolism is analogous, others do not.

It depends on which authority you refer to or prefer.

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39 minutes ago, _R_ said:

 

The descriptor says "probably in Paul Marteau's hand" here: https://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb409188440

 

Thanks, I didn't read that, the information beside the cards themselves are an incomplete summarize. So yes on the BNF web page it said that these annotations are "probably by Paul Marteau" (and the deck was a donation from him to the BNF). I don't think that we give to the BNF a deck of poor value, no?

But there is a ton of misspellings lol! Otherwise the way the "d" is written, it looks feminine, but?...

Edited by Decan
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4 minutes ago, Decan said:

Thanks, I didn't read that, the information beside the cards themselves are an incomplete summarize. So yes on the BNF web page it said that these annotations are "probably by Paul Marteau" (and the deck was a donation from him to the BNF). I don't think that we give to the BNF a deck of poor value, no?

But there is a ton of misspellings lol! Otherwise the way the "d" is written, it looks feminine, but?...

I think the writing looks more male than female but as you say it’s very ‘scribbly’ (probably not a real word 😋) like if it was done in a haste. 

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2 minutes ago, Decan said:

Okay so maybe more male, possible.

I just asked my husband, for the fun of it : “Look at this picture. What’s your first impression - male or female handwriting?” He answered “Hmm.., I would have to guess male” (he had no idea about what he was looking at so he wasn’t biased . Still not quite what we can call a scientific proof though 😛). 

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On the “Le Batelleur” card, „sci(a)ence”  means “skills” or/and “savvy”. This is not “wisdom” or some special “knowledge”…

On the “Le Mat” card, „folie inconscience” means “lack of skills” (an idiot who can't do anything)

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XI Strength

-throughout the card (at the top and upper half): “énergie”, “action”, “travail”, “violence”> “energy”, “action”, “work”, “violence”

Reversed: “violence”> “violence” (violence is also annotated upright but reversed it’s the only word written on the card, so here probably this card reversed highlights its violent aspect, only or particularly)

 

XII The Hanged Man

-throughout the card (midway and lower half): sacrifice, expiation, expiation, angoisse> sacrifice, expiation (this word is written twice on the card, so important), “anxiety/angst”

Reversed: “parole, “tourment” (maybe for parole tourmentée?), “maison: cloître”, “ménage désuni”, “expiation”, “sacrifice”, “angoisse”> “speech, torment” (these two words together could refer to laments here), “place: cloister”, “broken couple/marriage”, “expiation”, “sacrifice”, “anxiety/angst” (the 3 last words are also written for the card upright and seem the basic meanings for this cards)

 

XIII The Unnamed (Death)

Interesting card of course! I note that there is no reference to a “transformation” among the meanings, it’s more negative (and very); the positive part is with money, that is valuable goods through inheritance.

-throughout the card (at the top and upper half): “mort”, “divorce près du 6”, "destruction”, “ruine”> “death”, “divorce near the 6 (the Lover)”, “destruction”, “ruin"

-midway: “18 eau, naufrage”, “soleil feu, foudre”, “16 chute”> (with the Moon card, the) 18: (destruction by) water, shipwreck”, (with the) Sun: (destruction by) fire, lightning” (here the words make sense if we add “destruction by” because just the words “water” or”fire” don’t really make sense), (with the Maison Dieu/Tower, the) 16: fall/downfall

-lower half: “or, argent, héritage”> “gold, silver, inheritance” (“argent” in French means silver but also money; here it could make sense that this word “argent” has translated into “money”, but with “gold” before I would say it’s more “gold and silver” (it’s a common expression), but this refers to valuable goods in general, we find these words on the Wheel card too.

 

I really don’t know at this point if I’ll cary on or not, but it would be easy for everyone (and myself) to buy some inexpensive TdM (or a Tarot de Besançon; otherwise for the city it's here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Besançon) and to write the keywords on it as a learning deck. The meanings here are not unconventional at all in my opinion: the Lover is just a Lover (not someone who is hesitating), Justice is just Justice, Death is Death (and ruin), it looks like that. It was a view of the owner of this deck of cards.

Edited by Decan
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15 hours ago, D76 said:

On the “Le Batelleur” card, „sci(a)ence”  means “skills” or/and “savvy”. This is not “wisdom” or some special “knowledge”…

On the “Le Mat” card, „folie inconscience” means “lack of skills” (an idiot who can't do anything)

@D76 For the word "science", actually we find it on the Baleleur card but as well on the Popess card, and I don't think that it means the same thing here or there, thanks to note it!

On my part I would say that for the Bateleur it is "science/know-how", while for the Popess it is "science/knowledge"

For Le Mat and for the word "inconscience": here it is "thoughtlessness/recklessness, could be ignorance but not really uncounsciouness here, my bad, my bad! :classic_smile:

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On 8/4/2019 at 4:42 PM, Decan said:

VI The Lover

-at the top: “13 divorce”, “et As d’épée rapports intimes”> (with the Death card) 13: divorce”, “and (with the) Ace of Swords: intimate/sexual relations”

How exciting.

 

Since I assign to The Lover the noun marriage (among many other nouns) and since I most often interpret Death as denoting that which ceases, ends, or stops relative to the nounal significations of the card or combination that precede, I could interpret a combination comprising The Lover preceding Death as denoting a marriage that ends, i.e. divorce.

 

As I intend to discuss in an article that I hope to complete before the end of the year, the theme of iconography of the sixth trump card of the Tarot de Marseille patterns does appear to be that of marriage: a young male appears to present to an older female a younger female as if seeking approval from the older female to marry the younger female (in the 1JJ Swiss Tarot, an older male replaces the older female).

 

The same appears to be true of the iconography of the Minchiate patterns: a female subject places upon the head of her future husband a crown, thereby bestowing upon him the authority over a woman that marriage granted a man in medieval and renaissance Europe.

 

Regards

KevinM

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8 hours ago, Decan said:

@D76 For the word "science", actually we find it on the Baleleur card but as well on the Popess card, and I don't think that it means the same thing here or there, thanks to note it!

On my part I would say that for the Bateleur it is "science/know-how", while for the Popess it is "science/knowledge"

For Le Mat and for the word "inconscience": here it is "thoughtlessness/recklessness, could be ignorance but not really uncounsciouness here, my bad, my bad! :classic_smile:

Probably, for “Le Batelleur” card, „sci(a)ence”  means “skills” or/and “savvy”, as I wrote above….but, for “Junon” (Popess) „science”means “wisdom” or some special “knowledge”…

 

Anyway, thanks for your work. The most interesting topic in this forum.

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Thanks guys!

 

Thinking about the initial owner (the one who wrote the annotations) I really doubt that this can be someone with a PhD in Philosophy, it seems pretty impossible for me too. 

But it could be the deck of a fortune teller; a fortune teller in the past didn’t need to master writing I think (even a fortune teller who had a reputation and knew very well his/her subject). Fortune tellers didn’t give readings in writing, people just went discreetly at the fortune teller’s home, sat for a face to face reading and paid cash (I see things that way).

The word of mouth and oral tradition were likely the most important part in my opinion (for astrology it was likely different though), but these are speculations and I don’t know (I didn’t even pull a few cards to try to know that!)

 

ETA: for this deck I look at one card and then another, compare them and so on to try to decipher what I can't for now.

There is something with the Ace of Swords, it's odd but on the major arcana cards the combinaisons refer very often to this Ace (and not to another Ace or another pip, except one time for the 10 of Swords on the Lover card).

Apparently and considering the meanings, people didn't seem interested in "pathworking" or "spirituality" (actually the spiritual retreat center is listed on the Hanged Man reversed with the word "cloister", just beside "laments" and "expiation", not encouraging LOL), but more with legal problems and problems in relation to marriage/divorce or love. Probably too with the evil eye and bad magic (there is an interesting combinaison listed for that), which is not surprising finally.

Edited by Decan
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9 hours ago, Decan said:

 

Thinking about the initial owner (the one who wrote the annotations) I really doubt that this can be someone with a PhD in Philosophy, it seems pretty impossible for me too. 

 

Absolutely. 

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I finally asked my sibilla today: "who was the person who wrote on this Tarot deck?"

 

Pensiero reversed + Morte reversed + Dottore (pic below)

 

sibill10.jpg

 

With Morte reversed at the center it can be someone who was in a difficult state within; Pensiero reversed at first can show negative thoughts, here orientated towards death, (but as well someone with some intuition); with Morte reversed just next, existential issues and metaphysical researchs in relation to the occult are possible (maybe seances too). The Dottore at the end is often a professional and since Pensiero reversed mirrors Dottore I think possible that this person was a professional, a fortune teller or someone involved in "the occult", a healer/witch doctor? (the dark side with the occult is something possible while this person also had a helping role). Otherwise the two first cards can show a depression. Il Pensiero shows a man, the Dottore too, this person could be a man.

 

Just my two cents of course, I don't use my sibilla for too long!

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15 minutes ago, Decan said:

I finally asked my sibilla today: "who was the person who wrote on this Tarot deck?"

 

Pensiero reversed + Morte reversed + Dottore (pic below)

 

sibill10.jpg

 

With Morte reversed at the center it can be someone who was in a difficult state within; Pensiero reversed at first can show negative thoughts, here orientated towards death, (but as well someone with some intuition); with Morte reversed just next, existential issues and metaphysical researchs in relation to the occult are possible (maybe seances too). The Dottore at the end is often a professional and since Pensiero reversed mirrors Dottore I think possible that this person was a professional, a fortune teller or someone involved in "the occult", a healer/witch doctor? (the dark side with the occult is something possible while this person also had a helping role). Otherwise the two first cards can show a depression. Il Pensiero shows a man, the Dottore too, this person could be a man.

 

Just my two cents of course, I don't use my sibilla for too long!

Love it!

 

My first impression was that the cards gave you a bit of a cheeky answer:

 

”You are overthinking this - there is no sense of closure to be found. Your thinking won’t put an end to this mystery so better focus on what matters: this deck has something to offer and it can help you feel better”

 

😁😁😁

 

(Sorry if I just offended every traditional sibilla reader - I’m obviously not one myself 😊)

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12 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

Love it!

 

My first impression was that the cards gave you a bit of a cheeky answer:

 

”You are overthinking this - there is no sense of closure to be found. Your thinking won’t put an end to this mystery so better focus on what matters: this deck has something to offer and it can help you feel better”

 

😁😁😁

 

(Sorry if I just offended every traditional sibilla reader - I’m obviously not one myself 😊)

I think your are right I overthink this while things will remain mysterious.

Otherwise in France someone with a PhD is named a doctor, and Pensiero can refer to philosophy pretty literally (while reversed here). I’m wondering if Paul Marteau was depressive, Morte reversed is a very bad card. Well, it was just an aside around these cards.

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