Cultural Appropriation And Resources On How To Avoid It

[Raggydoll]

10 hours ago, Lucent_Mists said:

Greetings ALL,

 

I am piggybacking on this thread because I have a concern and this thread is already here/applicable.  I recently joined a Facebook group that is focused entirely on cultural appropriation, they make a point of centering POC voices and allowing people who belong to specific groups to hold the spotlight on what is and isn't okay.  I was excited to join and learn, as I feel I'm pretty good about this kind of thing - but I became less excited when I learned that many Romani members were telling people that Tarot was a closed practice.  They say that Tarot was originated by the Romani and that modern Tarot readers are appropriating the culture surrounding 'fortune telling' and glamorizing/fetishizing their aesthetic (which certain people might call 'g*psy which is a slur).  This discussion ventures so far as to tell people that have been reading for years that they should give up all their decks and read only oracle decks.

 

Specifically, that the "Italian" trumps, Fool through World were a Romani invention that has been misappropriated by white folks, and that Arthur Waite was a special mess for not only appropriating Tarot from the Romani but also appropriating Hermeticism from Ancient Egyptians (whose own culture was colonized by the Greeks, survived till now and is therefore off-limits).  Having read a lot of books over the years, I went back to them (all are written by white men/women of course), and naturally I couldn't find any specific evidence that the Romani were the ONES.  The counter to this is that history is written by the winners and that the Romani were written out of their own history.

 

I expect a lot of people will respond pretty negatively to this kind of thing - just know that I am not trying to police or gate keep anyone!  I would prefer if a member who is Romani would address this - though there does seem to be a wide range of opinions within the culture.  If people who were in said group knew of me mining the tarot community for this information I would undoubtedly banned from that group, as I should just trust the Romani members at face value and give away my decks.  They would tell me I am merely seeking validation about my own messy cultural appropriation....

 

Has anyone encountered this, or have anything to add?

 

Cheers,

Lucent

 

We cannot comment on the alleged claims or discussions that take place on Facebook. You also can't ask individuals to be spokespersons for an entire ethnic group. That is tokenism. The way you describe these individuals (that they are likely going to ban you for wanting to know the real facts or for not immediately burning your decks or trusting them at face value) is, in my view, problematic. You are basically describing what you perceive as negative behavior of individuals while at the same time emphasizing their ethnicity. I don't think anything good will come from this particular discussion. I suggest that if you are truly wanting to know more about the history of tarot, then do your research. Please feel free to start a discussion around it in the correct section. We have several really knowledgeable members that would surely want to help you. Just leave out the facebook drama when you ask them. Thank you! 

 

 

[fire cat pickles]

4 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

 

We cannot comment on the alleged claims or discussions that take place on Facebook. You also can't ask individuals to be spokespersons for an entire ethnic group. That is tokenism. The way you describe these individuals (that they are likely going to ban you for wanting to know the real facts or for not immediately burning your decks or trusting them at face value) is, in my view, problematic. You are basically describing what you perceive as negative behavior of individuals while at the same time emphasizing their ethnicity. I don't think anything good will come from this particular discussion. I suggest that if you are truly wanting to know more about the history of tarot, then do your research. Please feel free to start a discussion around it in the correct section. We have several really knowledgeable members that would surely want to help you. Just leave out the facebook drama when you ask them. Thank you! 

 

 

[gregory]

11 hours ago, fire cat pickles said:

Do you think it's plausible that the Romani had access to printing presses and paper in the 15th century? I'm referring of course to the earliest historical instances of tarot. Also, the Golden Dawn based their tradition on the TdM and others, not strictly Romani.  There is loads of research around to back this up.

 

Something seems "off" about whoever is perpetuating this. Par for the course on Fartbook, in my opinion. 

 

You have stolen my word. But that's OK - the more people refer correctly to That Place, the better.

 

I am aware of the discussion there - not that I ever go - and the last thing we need is to bring it over here. Fartbook is full of people pushing their own agendas - ass also the group offering up scanned deckss for piracy purposes I'm sure there is some good stuff there - but - also some of the worst.

[fire cat pickles]

23 hours ago, gregory said:

 

You have stolen my word. But that's OK - the more people refer correctly to That Place, the better.

 

 

When you coin a phrase is often sticks, like a bad smell...

[gregory]

As I said - JUST like fartbook

[Lucent_Mists]

Thanks for getting back to me all, I am not raring to burn/give away my decks at all and REALLY not trying to bring drama here!!  I hope it didn't seem like I was trying to stir the **** pot!

 

On 9/28/2020 at 11:09 PM, Raggydoll said:

You are basically describing what you perceive as negative behavior of individuals while at the same time emphasizing their ethnicity. I don't think anything good will come from this particular discussion. I suggest that if you are truly wanting to know more about the history of tarot, then do your research.

 

This is precisely why I came asking you folk, because I have been studying tarot since I was in high school (almost 20 years now!),  I consider myself pretty scholarly and as such I was solid in my understanding of the history.  (Until someone messed with my worldview I suppose.... 😬)  The only reason I bring up ethnicity is because that's how it is framed over there, not because I'm attempting to single anyone out or say they speak for an entire community.  It is a freaky, and in my opinion -unproductive- line of thinking to push specific heritage as being the only people allowed to speak on a particular subject.  That's exactly how we get superior attitudes based around the percentage of blood ancestry someone has and the last time that was the rule....well, I really don't want to be moving back there!  I just wanted to gauge if this discourse was present outside of Zuccberg City, clearly it is not and I'm sorry if this was the wrong place to bring it up. 

 

On 9/28/2020 at 4:37 PM, fire cat pickles said:

I'm referring of course to the earliest historical instances of tarot. Also, the Golden Dawn based their tradition on the TdM and others, not strictly Romani.  There is loads of research around to back this up.

 

That's one of the things that was most confusing to me about these claims, is that there isn't a historical reference for a specifically Romani based deck as the Italian Christian iconography in the TdM is so prevalent, and certainly no glaring historical evidence surrounding the "theft" of Hermeticism!  I will worm my way over the history forum and poke around there to sooth my frazzled nerves.

 

Thanks and cheers, card readers!! ❤️ 

[katrinka]

On 9/28/2020 at 1:20 PM, Lucent_Mists said:

I am piggybacking on this thread because I have a concern and this thread is already here/applicable.  I recently joined a Facebook group that is focused entirely on cultural appropriation, they make a point of centering POC voices and allowing people who belong to specific groups to hold the spotlight on what is and isn't okay. 

 

That in itself is fine.

 

Quote

I was excited to join and learn, as I feel I'm pretty good about this kind of thing

 

Nobody is "pretty good about this kind of thing".
Did you go to school in the US? If so, you've been drilled that white people invented and discovered everything. There are exceptions - I remember bits about how the Native Americans "gave us" corn, and George Washington Carver "gave us" peanut butter - but for the most part, the accomplishments of nonwhites are downplayed or ignored altogether.
That's what Jane Elliot meant when she said if you went through school, you're racist. They grind that crap into us at a tender age, and we spend the rest of our lives trying to clean it out.

 

Quote

I expect a lot of people will respond pretty negatively to this kind of thing - just know that I am not trying to police or gate keep anyone!  I would prefer if a member who is Romani would address this - though there does seem to be a wide range of opinions within the culture.  If people who were in said group knew of me mining the tarot community for this information I would undoubtedly banned from that group, as I should just trust the Romani members at face value and give away my decks.  They would tell me I am merely seeking validation about my own messy cultural appropriation...

 

Humans are primates, and primates fling poop.
But "a member who is Romani"

1. Can't speak for all the Rom, Dom, etc.
2. Owes no one an explanation.
Saying "the Romani" is like saying "African Americans", "Native Americans", "Jews", "Chicanos", etc. The few don't speak for all.

BUT - it REALLY sounds like you're trying to raise an army against the "Romani" who want you to "give away your decks."
If that's the case, GTFO of here with that ****.  Seriously.

 

On 9/29/2020 at 12:09 AM, Raggydoll said:

We cannot comment on the alleged claims or discussions that take place on Facebook. You also can't ask individuals to be spokespersons for an entire ethnic group. That is tokenism. The way you describe these individuals (that they are likely going to ban you for wanting to know the real facts or for not immediately burning your decks or trusting them at face value) is, in my view, problematic. You are basically describing what you perceive as negative behavior of individuals while at the same time emphasizing their ethnicity. I don't think anything good will come from this particular discussion. I suggest that if you are truly wanting to know more about the history of tarot, then do your research. Please feel free to start a discussion around it in the correct section. We have several really knowledgeable members that would surely want to help you. Just leave out the facebook drama when you ask them. Thank you!

 

 

THIS.
TBH, the "emphasizing their ethnicity" stuff creeps me out.
 

On 9/29/2020 at 4:53 AM, gregory said:

You have stolen my word. But that's OK - the more people refer correctly to That Place, the better.

 

I am aware of the discussion there - not that I ever go - and the last thing we need is to bring it over here. Fartbook is full of people pushing their own agendas - ass also the group offering up scanned deckss for piracy purposes I'm sure there is some good stuff there - but - also some of the worst.

 

This, too.
And I call it "fecesbook." It is what it is.

 

22 hours ago, Lucent_Mists said:

It is a freaky, and in my opinion -unproductive- line of thinking to push specific heritage as being the only people allowed to speak on a particular subject. 

 

Anybody can speak on anything they want. But if I have a question about Vodoun, I'm certainly not going to ask a white person.
I'm aware that there are white practitioners, and they might know their stuff, but I prefer to go straight to a Black pracitioner.

 

 

Quote

That's one of the things that was most confusing to me about these claims, is that there isn't a historical reference for a specifically Romani based deck as the Italian Christian iconography in the TdM is so prevalent, and certainly no glaring historical evidence surrounding the "theft" of Hermeticism! 

 

Hermeticism was never stolen, and, until you posted that, I'm not aware of any allegation  that it was.
 

Edited October 2, 2020 by katrinka

[vague-whisperings]

4 hours ago, Lucent_Mists said:

It is a freaky, and in my opinion -unproductive- line of thinking to push specific heritage as being the only people allowed to speak on a particular subject.

apologies if this isnt worded well but the reason for that is bc some religous practices n stuff are closed. voodoo is one of those things, and people outside of the practicing culture cant do it bc they dont have the appropriate history or cultural context necessary. letting poc speak about cultural appropriation and then following what they say is respectful but i can also see how some people (like the fb group you found) could misuse it

 

tbh one of the occultists i follow online has a good approach of Do Research. if theres debate, barring actual community members saying not to do the thing, then they avoid that culture. its a bit hard bc a lot of the occult community is based on appropriated traditions tho rip

[katrinka]

18 hours ago, vague-whisperings said:

apologies if this isnt worded well but the reason for that is bc some religous practices n stuff are closed. voodoo is one of those things, and people outside of the practicing culture cant do it bc they dont have the appropriate history or cultural context necessary.

This.
There is a beautiful Exu spirit in Quimbanda, Pomba Gira Cigana Cartomante. I can relate to her, but  I don't "work with" her. The world is NOT my buffet.

If i knew a Quimbanda priest IRL, in meatspace, and he confirmed that she was my spirit, it would be another story.

But I don't.  So I respect that and, while I appreciate her existence, I leave her ALONE,

Edited October 2, 2020 by katrinka

[Bodhiseed]

Some quotes from the book "Holy Envy" by Barbara Brown Taylor:

 

I have learned that possessing an artifact is not the same as possessing the spiritual reality it represents.

I may look, but I may not poach.

They do not exist to serve me, improve me, or profit me.

[Bodhiseed]

[Lucent_Mists]

On 10/1/2020 at 7:16 PM, katrinka said:

Humans are primates, and primates fling poop.
But "a member who is Romani"

1. Can't speak for all the Rom, Dom, etc.
2. Owes no one an explanation.
Saying "the Romani" is like saying "African Americans", "Native Americans", "Jews", "Chicanos", etc. The few don't speak for all.

On 10/1/2020 at 7:16 PM, katrinka said:

Anybody can speak on anything they want. But if I have a question about Vodoun, I'm certainly not going to ask a white person.
I'm aware that there are white practitioners, and they might know their stuff, but I prefer to go straight to a Black pracitioner.

 

What you've said here is precisely why I came asking - because I was told that only people with Romani heritage could be consulted about tarot, profit from reading tarot, or possess tarot decks.  So either my FB group is full of crap (certainly possible) or there is some thread of truth to it, and Romani voices should be centered and their experiences should be given more weight regarding tarot.   The few don't speak for the all - but if I have a question about Voodou, I will ask a black practitioner rather than a white practitioner.  The few Romani don't speak for all Romani, but if I have a question about Romani traditions, shouldn't I ask a Romani?  So I'm VERY confused why my words would compel you to think this about me:

 

On 10/1/2020 at 7:16 PM, katrinka said:

BUT - it REALLY sounds like you're trying to raise an army against the "Romani" who want you to "give away your decks."
If that's the case, GTFO of here with that ****.  Seriously.

 

No, it's really not the case.  I'm not sure where in any of my posts I propose rallying or "raising an army" against any cultures or communities....?  I came here -seeking perspective- from Romani-identifying individuals who have opinions and knowledge about this issue, (i.e. "I was raised within Romani traditions and my family (does/doesn't) teach that our ancestors created the tarot deck structure).  --So I can conscientiously continue my tarot practice in the most respectful way possible.--

 

 

[katrinka]

51 minutes ago, Lucent_Mists said:

 

What you've said here is precisely why I came asking - because I was told that only people with Romani heritage could be consulted about tarot, profit from reading tarot, or possess tarot decks.  So either my FB group is full of crap (certainly possible) or there is some thread of truth to it, and Romani voices should be centered and their experiences should be given more weight regarding tarot.   The few don't speak for the all - but if I have a question about Voodou, I will ask a black practitioner rather than a white practitioner.  The few Romani don't speak for all Romani, but if I have a question about Romani traditions, shouldn't I ask a Romani?  So I'm VERY confused why my words would compel you to think this about me:

 

 

No, it's really not the case.  I'm not sure where in any of my posts I propose rallying or "raising an army" against any cultures or communities....? 

 

It was a tone issue: a facebook group "allowing people who belong to specific groups to hold the spotlight ", etc.
And then going on about how it was all going bad, a false narrative was being pushed, and people were being told to give away their decks by "the Romani" (who may well not be Rom at all - it's facebook.)

What result were you hoping for? Going to a Tarot forum and saying that (insert group) says they're not permitted to read Tarot and expected to give away their decks could have stirred up some nasty anti-Rom outrage. That's what I meant by "raise an army".

The good news is that nobody fell into that.
 

51 minutes ago, Lucent_Mists said:

I came here -seeking perspective- from Romani-identifying individuals who have opinions and knowledge about this issue, (i.e. "I was raised within Romani traditions and my family (does/doesn't) teach that our ancestors created the tarot deck structure).  --So I can conscientiously continue my tarot practice in the most respectful way possible.-

Perspective, or permission? Was the plan to go back to that group and quote the post? It's already been stated that nobody can speak for their entire ethnicity. So it would have been pointless to do that, since finding someone on the internet claiming a particular ancestry and quoting them would prove absolutely nothing at that group.

If you want to debunk the story that Tarot originated with the Rom, there are plenty of links that provide that information. You don't have to go looking for a "representative."

[fire cat pickles]

1 hour ago, Lucent_Mists said:

I was told that only people with Romani heritage could be consulted about tarot, profit from reading tarot, or possess tarot decks.

Read this slowly to yourself. Are you willing to give someone authority over you to believe such a thing? It sounds rather elitist and discriminatory, in my opinion. It is in essence what your post talked about, and so it's no surprise that it elicited a response from @katrinka that it appears you're attempting to set up a "them or us" situation. The whole premise is ridiculous.  I would agree with the second half of your statement that, yes, that group is just plain full of crap.

Edited October 11, 2020 by fire cat pickles

[Raggydoll]

I am here as a moderator, telling everyone to please remind yourselves of two things. First. This is a thread were we share valuable resources on cultural appropriation. It is not a place for debate, and it is not a place to discuss the words or behaviors of individuals. Secondly, please be nice to one another and do not ruin this important topic. If we are all truly caring about doing the right thing then lets stick to facts and to high quality resources and lets skip personal opinions and drama. Before you post anything else, take a moment to think about whether what you are wanting to say truly helps this topic in the right direction or not. I really don't want to have to moderate this thread because I know we are all good people - adult people - and we can help each other to stay on track.