Cultural Appropriation And Resources On How To Avoid It

[Marigold]

1 hour ago, Raggydoll said:

I appreciate the sentiment. This thread is however not intended as a debate. Like the title says - the intent is to provide a place to share resources and information for those of us that feel that cultural appropriation is a problem and who want to avoid contributing to it. If you want to debate whether the topic of cultural appropriation has been blown out of proportion then you can certainly do so. Just have it in a separate thread 🙂 Im sure there’s plenty of people who would chime in. 

Trying to stop a debate on an internet forum is like trying to push back the tide. The moon won't allow it though. There are forces out there greater than our will. 

 

I've been seen you trying to do this valiantly and with great integrity from the start, and I think you're fighting a losing battle. But I understand why you're doing it. 🙂

Edited December 12, 2019 by Marigold

[Marigold]

52 minutes ago, ashwsh said:

So I don't know what the issue here is, My husband is a Punjabi (those hailing from Punjab City In India or from parts of Punjab that now belong to Pakistan) and he is a Hindu who believes in going to the temple and a gurudwara (A place for worship for Sikh). While I have been quite open to going to temples, church and Dargah (A shrine), there is something about Gurudwara that stops me from going in it. I am not sure what it is and I have thought about it for a while but I usually join my husband on a visit to a Gurudwara. Something in my mind just says this is not for you. I have tried to think of a right reason for what makes me uncomfortable about the space, but I just fail to arrive at one.

 

I can't go into a mosque nor a synagogue. I feel like I'm violating their sacred space somehow. Maybe that's what you're feeling ? But I wander happily around cathedrals. Maybe because they're more often than not tourist attractions than places of worship. In Europe anyway. 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Marigold

[Aoife]

I've loved going to gurudwaras, I've always felt so welcomed.  I've been more anxious visiting mosques. [I'm not Sikh or Muslim] I love visiting old cathedrals - they hold so much history and emotion .

[katrinka]

17 minutes ago, Marigold said:

Trying to stop a debate on an internet forum is like trying to push back the tide. The moon won't allow it though. There are forces out there greater than our will. 

But not greater than a locked thread. 😉
I love debate. But yes, lets do keep this thread on topic. It's an important subject.

 

[Raggydoll]

4 minutes ago, Marigold said:

Trying to stop a debate on an internet forum is like trying to push back the tide. The moon won't allow it though. There are forces out there greater than our will. 

 

I've been seen you trying to do this valiantly and with great integrity from the start, and I think you're fighting a losing battle. But I understand why you're doing it. 🙂

I am glad you understand - but for the sake of those who don’t, I will explain.

 

Lets say a member starts a thread on the topic: “I want to start eating a vegetarian diet, please give me your tips and recipes” then someone replies “Meat has a lot of protein and iron, I think it’s an important part of ones diet”. That would not only be off topic but would most likely derail the thread pretty quickly. Had the topic been “Vegetarian diets - yay or nay?!” then it would have been a perfectly fine reply. 

 

Like I said, I care greatly about this topic. I am genuinely interested in hearing people’s experiences and reading the information they share. I totally understand that you and many others have opinions on cultural appropriation in general. So why not start another thread? If you see that someone tries very hard to keep a topic on track, why not help instead of saying that they are fighting a losing battle? I always try to help everyone else to keep their topics from going downhill. Not just because I’m a moderator - but because I care. 

[Raggydoll]

2 minutes ago, katrinka said:

But not greater than a locked thread. 😉
I love debate. But yes, lets do keep this thread on topic. It's an important subject.

 

[Grandma]

 

15 minutes ago, Marigold said:

I can't go into a mosque nor a synagogue. I feel like I'm violating their sacred space somehow.

If a synagogue is open there is someone inside.  The office is not in the sanctuary.  Why not just ask if you can go into the place of worship?  That seems more respectful than assuming how a whole religion feels about your entering a particular synagogue.  

[Grandma]

4 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

I am glad you understand - but for the sake of those who don’t, I will explain.

I'm sorry @Raggydoll - I should have read the posts that came in while I was typing mine.

[xTheHermitx]

2 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I appreciate the sentiment. This thread is however not intended as a debate. Like the title says - the intent is to provide a place to share resources and information for those of us that feel that cultural appropriation is a problem and who want to avoid contributing to it. If you want to debate whether the topic of cultural appropriation has been blown out of proportion then you can certainly do so. Just have it in a separate thread 🙂 Im sure there’s plenty of people who would chime in. 

 

oops...sorry...wasn't meaning it to turn into a debate

[Raggydoll]

2 minutes ago, xTheHermitx said:

 

oops...sorry...wasn't meaning it to turn into a debate

Don't worry, I get that it wasn’t your intention! 

[Raggydoll]

Here’s an article I enjoyed:

 

https://www.theweek.co.uk/cultural-appropriation

 

It brings up most of the controversial examples involving celebrities - like the Kim Kardashian Kimono thing. But they also provide some interesting quotes and definitions on cultural appropriation. 

[Raggydoll]

Here is a more in depth explanation of all the complexities:

 

https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/06/cultural-appropriation-wrong/

[gregory]

I think one's best bet is to consult the people involved. If I want to go into a synagogue, I can ask someone there if it's OK. I have certainly been invited into mosques. Cathedrals - well, as a baptised member of the C of E (it didn't take...) I can go into them legitimately, but so many of them are kind of dead these days. I'm not sure why - whether it's that the faith of the UK is fading or the over-use by tourists - when they are full to the brim with people with flash cameras it does rather destroy the atmosphere...

 

I know there is a huge difference in feel between the Sacre Coeur and Notre Dame, in Paris....

 

But if I wanted to wear a burqa, I think that would be way off limits. As Marigold said - it's like pretending to be someone you aren't. It's the FAKE side of it.

[Marigold]

1 hour ago, Grandma said:

 

If a synagogue is open there is someone inside.  The office is not in the sanctuary.  Why not just ask if you can go into the place of worship?  That seems more respectful than assuming how a whole religion feels about your entering a particular synagogue.  

It's not that I'm assuming what the people there will think. I am certain that most times I'd be welcomed warmly. It's myself that feels that I'm somehow being disrespectful. They're not museums or tourist attractions like the big old cathedrals that unload people from coaches during their round trip of Paris or wherever. If I'm not going there to worship, it's not my place. 

 

Sorry raggydoll, I wanted to answer Grandma so that there were no misunderstandings. 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Marigold

[Raggydoll]

@gregory Yes the flashy cameras in churches... they really do destroy the atmosphere. I like to go into churches and admire the art etc. But I do not stay for sermons. I also have never been into a synagogue or a mosque - but if someone invited me then I would gladly go inside. It was the same when we were in the Sami community. There are sacred Lavvu dwellings that are unoccupied in some of the forests and I would not step inside one of them if I wasn’t invited to do so. Even if they were empty at the time. But I was lucky enough to be given a tour by a Sami friend and that was very special.

[Raggydoll]

11 minutes ago, Marigold said:

It's not that I'm assuming what the people there will think. I am certain that most times I'd be welcomed warmly. It's myself that feels that I'm somehow being disrespectful. They're not museums or tourist attractions like the big old cathedrals that unload people from coaches during their round trip of Paris or wherever. If I'm not going there to worship, it's not my place. 

 

Sorry raggydoll, I wanted to answer Grandma so that there were no misunderstandings. 

No worries!

[gregory]

Can one not go there to try to understand the people who do worship there ? I learned a lot when I was invited to a service in a Buddhist temple in Nepal once, from the feel of the whole thing as much as anything.

Edited December 12, 2019 by gregory

[Raggydoll]

8 minutes ago, gregory said:

Can one not go there to try to understand the people who do worship there ? I learned a lot when I was invited to a service in a Buddhist temple in Nepal once, form the feel of the whole thing as much as anything.

Oh yes, for sure. I don’t see any problem with participating in another cultures/religions spiritual service when you are invited. The reason why I don’t go to Christian sermons is simply because I do not resonate with that faith. And the reason why I do not go uninvited into a sacred Sami sight is because I know of their animist beliefs and that spirit of place is important to them. I am always curious to learn more about a different faith or tradition. 

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, Raggydoll said:

Here’s an article I enjoyed:

 

https://www.theweek.co.uk/cultural-appropriation

 

It brings up most of the controversial examples involving celebrities - like the Kim Kardashian Kimono thing. But they also provide some interesting quotes and definitions on cultural appropriation. 

It's excellent. Bookmarked, because I know I'll have occasion to link to it.

"Dior has been accused of cultural appropriation after using Native American imagery in an ad campaign for its “Sauvage” fragrance.

An advert for the fashion brand featured Johnny Depp strolling “through a landscape of canyons while a Sioux warrior performs a war dance in traditional dress”, says Forbes."

 

Well, then.
When my Dior eyeshadow palette is gone, I won't be getting another. There's a lot of other good makeup in this world.

 

"Depp said it was a teaser of a long film that has not been seen. “The film was made with a great respect for the indigenous people not just of North America but all over the world. It's a pity that people jumped the gun and made these objections,” he said."

Depp is still uber hot, even in his fifties. But I'm not going to take the word of the man who played Tonto in these matters.

"Oxford Dictionaries, which only put the phrase into its official lexicon in 2017, defines cultural appropriation as “the unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc. of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.”

Yes, this.
If we can get everybody on equal footing and keep it that way for oh, about seven generations, then yes - it will be much less of an issue. But that's about 140 years of equality for everybody. We won't see it.

"The problem arises when somebody takes something from another less dominant culture in a way that members of that culture find undesirable and offensive. The point is that the more marginalised group doesn’t get a say, while their heritage is deployed by someone in a position of greater privilege – for fun or fashion, perhaps, and out of a place of ignorance rather than knowledge of that culture."

 

Yes. This.

You can't culturally appropriate from the dominant culture. It's like the oxymoron "racist against white people" - utter nonsense. http://www.aclrc.com/myth-of-reverse-racism
 

"Originally derived from sociologist writing in the 1990s, “its usage appears to have first been adopted by indigenous peoples of nations tainted by histories of colonisation, such as Canada, Australia and the United States”, says The Tablet."
 

I'm just amazed that people listened to the Natives, even a little bit.
Had they listened a little more, we wouldn't be in the fix we are now. *cough*climate change*cough*
I certainly don't want my kids and grandson living in a dystopia where roving bands of outlaws will kill for potable water. But here we are, well on our way.

"Can it work the other way around?

Yes, it can and does – but usually in a different way. Often a more marginalised culture will adopt aspects of the stronger in order to fit in, not stand out. Black women, for example, frequently report they feel unable to leave their hair in its natural state. The BBC cites cases of women being told by employers it looks “unprofessional”. Some say they must spend time and money to make it more like “white hair”, HuffPost reports."

It's not just time and money. Hair relaxer BURNS.
My own hair is dark. And for a short time, I bleached it blonde, but I had to use the strongest bleach and repeat the process a couple of times. My color is hard to lift and bleaching just once only turned my hair a nasty orange color. I would get actual scabs on my scalp. But I did it because I wanted to, not because I was coerced into it in order to attend school (yes, children are often expected to straighten their hair) or keep gainful employment.
Relaxer does the same thing to a lot of people, even doing it just once. So this is what's expected of Black people in order to look "professional."

 

I could go on, but I really don't want to think about this any more.
POC don't have that privilege. They have to live with this garbage 24/7.
 

Edited December 12, 2019 by katrinka
formatting issues

[ilweran]

Quote

 It's like the oxymoron "racist against white people" - utter nonsense. 

Though presumably a white person in a non-white country could face racism? Though that gets complicated by many countries history of colonialism.

 

I don't know,  I don't think it's something we consider so much in the UK so perhaps I'm out of step with opinion in other countries. We like to think of ourselves as fair and welcoming, a soft touch, but there has, of course, been an increase in concerns about immigration and more recently an increase in overt racism- in fact hate crimes against all protected groups have increased since the Brexit referendum. A depressing sign of the prejudices lurking beneath the surface, waiting to come out when it seems more socially acceptable for them to be expressed.

 

Following on from the 'one persons opinion reflecting the whole culture/country', another thing that bothers me is the tendency to group together all non-white people under the BAME heading and ignore the very different cultures and ethnicities included,  their relationships with each other and so on. 

[Raggydoll]

@katrinka I’m glad you enjoyed the article. I think you’ll enjoy the second one too. It was very graphic and gripping. I learned a lot from it. There are so many issues that you’re not aware of when you live in a country like mine. At least not if you rely on school, tv or native people to educate you. You have to actively look for that type of information. 

[Raggydoll]

@ilweran I really appreciate hearing your thoughts. I am a bit conflicted regarding that question. I can say that growing up, I was horrendously bullied for my really pale skin - mostly by white kids. They would shout at me in busses and in the school corridors etc. I won’t repeat the words they used. As an adult I once was walking in a small town - in the middle of the day - when a black man started shouting at me. He was saying that I was too white and that I looked unhealthy and needed a tan. He then came closer, looked at my face, smiled and said “I’ll take you to Africa and give you a private tour”. As unpleasant as that experience was, I did not count it as racism. It felt more like a #metoo moment. At no point was I afraid that he would hit me or spit on my etc. I knew that if someone had come they would have immediately sided with me. So, no I was not in a racially vulnerable position. But this did indeed happen in my own country. 

[devin]

7 hours ago, ilweran said:

Though presumably a white person in a non-white country could face racism?

I am a white guy in a majority black country. Thinking back, I can't recall ever having had an experience that could definitely be put down to racism (sometimes people are just nasty because they're nasty), and I have definitely never been racially abused by a black person. In fact, the only time I've had my ethnicity hurled at me was by a white guy from a different cultural group: An old Afrikaans man took offense at my accidental bumping of his trolley in a supermarket (I did apologize) and started shouting that I should "**ck off back to England" and then called me a "salt d**k." Inference being that, because I'm of Anglo descent, I'm not a proper South African.... with one foot in Africa, one foot in England, and my, um, business hanging in the sea.

 

BUT, moving out of the personal sphere, there are certain local black politicians from the smaller 'ethnic nationalist' parties that do sprout nasty, nasty stuff and are clearly racist and bigoted. This is not just aimed at white people but also other ethnic minorities like Asians. Yuck.

 

So I think structural racism and personal racism are two different things.

 

Anyway, I read a wonderful book (written in the 70s, I think) by an American Indian anthropologist (God is Red by Vine Deloria) that mentions a craze in the sixties for white people, including as school projects, invading Indian burial grounds looking for 'trinkets' and skeletons. I mean, this is sick beyond belief on so many levels and I can understand why stuff like this could leave a cultural group with severe attitudes toward cultural appropriation.

 

That being said, Deloria also seems to view cultural and religious practice as inherently place/ethnicity specific and universalism as corrupting/dangerous. Now, I can get this to an extent, but, imo, it also opens the door to the kind of cultural chauvinism and nationalism (ie. racism and fascism) that has found its way into some parts of the European neo-pagan community. Y'know, "Blood and Soil." *Shiver*

 

Oh, and in later books, Deloria launches into those from Native communities who pander to the new-age / hippy crowd to turn a quick buck.

 

In the end, I think his major concern (aside from practical, political justice) was to preserve a living culture that was/is in danger of going dead, and his books are well worth reading for anyone interested in such topics.

Edited December 13, 2019 by devin

[Lucent_Mists]

Greetings ALL,

 

I am piggybacking on this thread because I have a concern and this thread is already here/applicable.  I recently joined a Facebook group that is focused entirely on cultural appropriation, they make a point of centering POC voices and allowing people who belong to specific groups to hold the spotlight on what is and isn't okay.  I was excited to join and learn, as I feel I'm pretty good about this kind of thing - but I became less excited when I learned that many Romani members were telling people that Tarot was a closed practice.  They say that Tarot was originated by the Romani and that modern Tarot readers are appropriating the culture surrounding 'fortune telling' and glamorizing/fetishizing their aesthetic (which certain people might call 'g*psy which is a slur).  This discussion ventures so far as to tell people that have been reading for years that they should give up all their decks and read only oracle decks.

 

Specifically, that the "Italian" trumps, Fool through World were a Romani invention that has been misappropriated by white folks, and that Arthur Waite was a special mess for not only appropriating Tarot from the Romani but also appropriating Hermeticism from Ancient Egyptians (whose own culture was colonized by the Greeks, survived till now and is therefore off-limits).  Having read a lot of books over the years, I went back to them (all are written by white men/women of course), and naturally I couldn't find any specific evidence that the Romani were the ONES.  The counter to this is that history is written by the winners and that the Romani were written out of their own history.

 

I expect a lot of people will respond pretty negatively to this kind of thing - just know that I am not trying to police or gate keep anyone!  I would prefer if a member who is Romani would address this - though there does seem to be a wide range of opinions within the culture.  If people who were in said group knew of me mining the tarot community for this information I would undoubtedly banned from that group, as I should just trust the Romani members at face value and give away my decks.  They would tell me I am merely seeking validation about my own messy cultural appropriation....

 

Has anyone encountered this, or have anything to add?

 

Cheers,

Lucent

[fire cat pickles]

Do you think it's plausible that the Romani had access to printing presses and paper in the 15th century? I'm referring of course to the earliest historical instances of tarot. Also, the Golden Dawn based their tradition on the TdM and others, not strictly Romani.  There is loads of research around to back this up.

 

Something seems "off" about whoever is perpetuating this. Par for the course on Fartbook, in my opinion.