Cultural Appropriation And Resources On How To Avoid It

[ilweran]

My grandparents and my father lived in India for a while when my father was a child. They brought back ivory statues of Hindu gods, including Ganesh and Shiva. Not sure my grandparents knew much about the gods,  if they did they didn't pass the knowledge on to me. They fascinated me and were my first introduction to the idea that other people had a different god/gods, my first tiny steps towards whatever it is I am now spiritually and religiously. 

 

In my late teens or early 20's I learnt about cultural appropriation, panicked about my interest in Hindu gods/goddesses.  My families ISP was AOL, so I went straight to a Hindu chat room and asked them if it were ok or if it offended them. The people there were rather bemused by the question and said it didn't matter to them if I worshipped their gods.

 

I have my grandparents ivory statues.  I have my own of Shiva,  Parvati, Kali and Ganesh. What I don't do is use them as props for Instagram or anything similar.

Edited December 11, 2019 by ilweran
Auto correct doing its thing badly

[katrinka]

6 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I can so relate to this, thank you so much for sharing. I’ve been conflicted because of the way I have felt pulled to eastern spirituality. It’s not something new for me, I was very interested in Buddhism as a teenager. But when I started actually reading Sutras (of both Hindu and Buddhist origin) as an adult then I felt so grasped by it. I am at the point where I am actually silently incorporating some Buddhist teachings in my daily life and it’s been really enriching. But still I have hesitated to acquire a Buddha statue or a Mala because of how sacred I find them and because they are not native to me. So I hesitate, and a lot of shadow emotions come up in the process. It’s clearly a complicated topic for me and I need to come to peace with it on my own. I think I need my own approval and permission somehow. Anyway, that was a bit of a personal musing. 

Disclaimer: I can't speak for whole races of people. This is just my understanding at present.

From what I understand, Buddhists are generally OK with people having malas and statues, as long as there's some practice being done. So if you make offerings to your statue and use your mala to count mantra recitations, it's all good. Having them just because you think they're cool, wearing a mala on your wrist because you think it's pretty - no.

Some cultures are less accommodating. Native Americans have been having their things ripped off so badly for so long that they look askance at people lifting from their culture. White people running sweat lodges and other religious practices, knockoffs of Native crafts...best to stay away from all that. I do have a Native American bracelet, but I bought it from a Navajo, the Navajo made it, and he was the one who got paid. What Natives seem to object to most is exploitation of their culture. The cartomancy world is infested with new agery, and new age is terrible as far as exploitation goes. So when in doubt, don't. If you must emulate Natives, emulate their honesty, bravery, generosity...not their appearance and religion.

Maybe you just love sugar skulls. It's generally fine to incorporate a few in your decor, on the condition that you understand Dia de los Muertos and you're honoring the culture. But painting your face like that for Halloween - NO.

Dressing up like other cultures is always wrong. I don't mean some little item, I mean a full costume. And that includes dressing like a "gypsy" to read cards at a party. What you're doing is no different than what Al Jolson did. Here is a video showing how most people don't object to white/non-Black people wearing braids, but some will.
 

If you admire a culture, get to know some people who are part of it. (And not just one person.) That's the best way to get a feel for what's OK.

Edited December 10, 2019 by katrinka

[katrinka]

15 minutes ago, ilweran said:

My grandparents and my father lived in India for a while when my father was a child. They brought back ivory statues of Hindu gods, including Ganesh and Shiva. Not sure my grandparents knew much about the gods,  if they did they didn't pass the knowledge on to me. They fascinated me and were my first introduction to the idea that other people had a different god/gods, my first tiny steps towards whatever it is I am now spiritually and religiously. 

 

In my late teens or early 20's I learnt about cultural appropriation, panicked about my interest in Hindu gods/dessert.  My families ISP was AOL, so I went straight to a Hindu chat room and asked them if it were ok or if it offended them. The people there were rather bemused by the question and said it didn't matter to them if I worshipped their gods.

 

I have my grandparents ivory statues.  I have my own of Shiva,  Parvati, Kali and Ganesh. What I don't do is use them as props for Instagram or anything similar.

This.

[katrinka]

8 hours ago, Marigold said:

One could then argue that Arthur Waite culturally appropriated the Tarot of Marseilles. This doesn't seem to bother anyone (or very few). Maybe because it has now become a tradition of its own.

Caucasians taking caucasian things is not the issue here, even if Waite was English and not French.
It's about the dominant culture ripping off and trivializing cultures they've historically abused.

8 hours ago, Marigold said:

No-one got upset when white middle class kids started dressing up as rastafarians with dreadlocks in their hair. They may have laughed sometimes, but no-one got upset. I never heard a rastafarian ranting about this.

How many Rastafarians do you know well?

8 hours ago, Marigold said:

I would think they would be happy that people are taking an interest in their beliefs. Even if it is coloured by their own backgrounds - how could it be otherwise ?

Because their reasons for doing it are usually that they're reggae/Marley fans and "420 every day, mannnn!"
Which misses the whole point. And it IS disrespectful, whether anyone is ranting or not.

 

[fire cat pickles]

41 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Caucasians taking caucasian things is not the issue here, even if Waite was English and not French.
It's about the dominant culture ripping off and trivializing cultures they've historically abused.

 

 

Yes, she's right (as much as I hate to admit it <teehee> ). The power differential has to be there for the term "appropriation" even to be applied. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by fire cat pickles

[ilweran]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

Caucasians taking caucasian things is not the issue here,

Presumably it could be an issue. There was a discussion elsewhere about this, and one thing that came up was English people choosing Welsh names for their children. English is the dominant culture and they tried to repress Welsh culture and language, along with flooding valleys to provide water for English cities...

 

Personally I don't care that my English in-laws gave their eldest son a Welsh name, though I must admit I was a bit disconcerted that they named their dog Louie short for Llewellyn. Llew would be the shortened version and Ll is not the same as L.

 

Oh and there is that oracle with a Ddraig Goch that is green. Ddraig Goch being Red Dragon in Welsh. Not sure what the excuse for that was.

Edited December 11, 2019 by ilweran

[Starlight]

46 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said:

The power differential has to be there for the term "appropriation" even to be applied. 

 

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

It's about the dominant culture ripping off and trivializing cultures they've historically abused.

Yes, and those historically-abused cultures are sometimes caucasian.

 

ETA Ilweran has mentioned the Welsh. And I was thinking of the Irish.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Starlight

[fire cat pickles]

So, yes, there are instances ofCaucasian cultures (Welsh, Irish, etc.) being appropriated by another Caucasian culture. Hmmm.

 

I wonder how many of those deck creators could claim Welsh, Irish, etc. descent though? If they can, is there a power differential?

 

As a point of interest, why isn't the term "misappropriation" used? 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by fire cat pickles

[RavenOfSummer]

2 hours ago, katrinka said:

It's about the dominant culture ripping off and trivializing cultures they've historically abused.

 

1 hour ago, fire cat pickles said:

The power differential has to be there for the term "appropriation" even to be applied. 

I was going to say this, but @katrinka and @fire cat pickles beat me to it.

 

3 hours ago, katrinka said:

The cartomancy world is infested with new agery, and new age is terrible as far as exploitation goes.

Ugh, this is so true.

 

I agree with what @iMoodyCrab and @ashwsh have said, I don't think there is a problem with people finding genuine meaning in something from another culture and approaching it respectfully and learning about it as part of their own practice. I think the world is enriched by TRUE cultural sharing, meaning it is not exploitative or abusive or disrespectful.

 

It's one thing to see something from another cultural and think, "That's pretty, I want to have one/wear one/do one" without bothering to think whether it is harmful or misusing something that's of deep cultural or spiritual significance that you have no understanding of. On the other hand, I think it's possible to see something from another culture and have it awaken a true curiosity or yearning that you begin to respectfully, humbly, explore. We can, and should, learn a lot from cultures other than our own. I have no issue with white musicians playing jazz or rapping. I DO have an issue with white musicians releasing songs written by black musicians before the black musicians had a chance to release them because the contracts given to black musicians were so massively unfair, or not even acknowledging the origin of the song- as happened through much of the 20th century. I have an issue with companies promoting white musicians to sing black music in order to sell it to a white audience and make money off it- again as happened in much of the 20th century. Culture can build bridges, but instead it is often exploited for profit, and for people to feel like they are cool/unique/different/have meaning in their lives without doing any real work.

 

ETA Thank you Raggydoll for starting this thread! I admit I dove in without looking at the resources you shared but I plan to read/watch them tomorrow.

Edited December 11, 2019 by RavenOfSummer

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, Starlight said:

 

Yes, and those historically-abused cultures are sometimes caucasian.

 

ETA Ilweran has mentioned the Welsh. And I was thinking of the Irish.

True. 

But those caucasians were always abused by OTHER caucasians.

[Raggydoll]

1 hour ago, fire cat pickles said:

As a point of interest, why isn't the term "misappropriation" used? 

 

 

Did you mean on a larger scale or in this thread? I didn’t know exactly how to title it and I do find it hard to know the right terminology (being a non native English speaker). If I should change something then please let me know. I do see that appropriation and misappropriation are not the same so I apologize if I have made a mistake. 

[Starlight]

5 hours ago, katrinka said:

It's about the dominant culture ripping off and trivializing cultures they've historically abused.

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

  3 hours ago, Starlight said:

 

Yes, and those historically-abused cultures are sometimes caucasian.

 

ETA Ilweran has mentioned the Welsh. And I was thinking of the Irish.

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

True. 

But those caucasians were always abused by OTHER caucasians.

 

I understand what you're saying, but I was referring to cultural appropriation - one culture taking something from another culture that historically they'd abused. Cultural appropriation can happen to peoples who don't necessarily have a different skin colour or eye shape from the dominant culture.

2 hours ago, RavenOfSummer said:

I agree with what @iMoodyCrab and @ashwsh have said, I don't think there is a problem with people finding genuine meaning in something from another culture and approaching it respectfully and learning about it as part of their own practice. I think the world is enriched by TRUE cultural sharing, meaning it is not exploitative or abusive or disrespectful.

I agree. The problem arises when someone runs off with it, changes it, adds personal insights and personal gnosis and then presents it as a commodity for others to buy but still call it by its original name. :( Learn from it, yes. Sell it, no.

 

 

Is anyone here familiar with the NAFPS (New Age Fraud & Plastic Shamans) website? It's an eye-opener.

[Starlight]

5 hours ago, katrinka said:

Caucasians taking caucasian things is not the issue here

Ah, I've just seen this quote, @katrinka. Could you explain a little bit more what you mean? I think I'm looking at cultural appropriation slightly differently from you, and I'd like to better understand your point of view.

[katrinka]

33 minutes ago, Starlight said:

Ah, I've just seen this quote, @katrinka. Could you explain a little bit more what you mean? I think I'm looking at cultural appropriation slightly differently from you, and I'd like to better understand your point of view.

The way the term is currently used and understood, it refers to white people taking from other races, and if you go back to the OP, that's what was meant here. It may well technically apply to some things done to the Irish (but in the US, there were Irish plantation owners with slaves, as well), it may more properly be termed misappropriation, but those things fall under semantics. 

[ShadowMoon]

@Raggydoll , thank you once again for taking this initiative. I've learned so much in a span of 12 hours! I just read your message about Yoga Sutras... I love that professor already!

Have you considered ashram stay? You'll get to practice all 4 forms of yog there (karma, bhakti, kriya & gnana) and learn about each Sutra. Having said that, my personal favorite is Vipassana (there's no religion attached to this at all).

Next on my list is to live in a Buddhist Monastery and learn from Monks. 

 

@ilweran , I'll be happy to answer any questions you have. You can do any Hindu ritual you feel a pull towards and still practice your preferred religion too. It'll always still be considered appropriate. 

 

I like what @katrinka said. Don't wear other cultures as a costume. It's not appropriate for fancy dress. Even when my nephew had culture day at school, each class was representing a country, they dressed as the natives of each country. It was so beautifully portrayed. They even did all the cultural dances. What was even nicer was that parents of various cultures helped immensely to ensure their country was represented appropriately, so no one was offended. It's a fine line. 

[ShadowMoon]

1 hour ago, Starlight said:

Is anyone here familiar with the NAFPS (New Age Fraud & Plastic Shamans) website? It's an eye-opener.

Just for my understanding, do Native Americans call themselves Indians too? Is that appropriate? In school we were taught to always refer them as Native Americans.

 

For Australian Natives the appropriate term we were taught is "Aboriginals" and never to call them "Indigenous". Aboriginals feel offended when termed Indigenous as for them the word is used for plants and animals. 

And for New Zealanders, the term taught was Maori. 

 

Please do correct me if I'm wrong. Genuinely asking to avoid any mishaps in the future. 

[Raggydoll]

@iMoodyCrab I just remembered the name of the professor - Edwin Bryant. There are several talks and interviews with him on YouTube plus he has written a number of  books. He has done his own translation/commentary to the Yoga Sutras so he truly knows his stuff. He is also a university professor in Hinduism (and he is an native Hindu, which I genuinely appreciate). His personal approach is however not what you would call ‘liberal’ so he is very strict when it comes to vegetarianism, spiritual discipline etc. That’s worth keeping in mind. 

[Raggydoll]

4 minutes ago, iMoodyCrab said:

Just for my understanding, do Native Americans call themselves Indians too? Is that appropriate? In school we were taught to always refer them as Native Americans.

 

For Australian Natives the appropriate term we were taught is "Aboriginals" and never to call them "Indigenous". Aboriginals feel offended when termed Indigenous as for them the word is used for plants and animals. 

And for New Zealanders, the term taught was Maori. 

 

Please do correct me if I'm wrong. Genuinely asking to avoid any mishaps in the future. 

In school we were taught to say Indians and later I understood that Native Americans was preferred. But now I have also heard ‘First Nation’. I would also really appreciate to be educated in the right terminology. 

[ShadowMoon]

3 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

@iMoodyCrab I just remembered the name of the professor - Edwin Bryant. There are several talks and interviews with him on YouTube plus he has written a number of  books. He has done his own translation/commentary to the Yoga Sutras so he truly knows his stuff. He is also a university professor in Hinduism (and he is an native Hindu, which I genuinely appreciate). His personal approach is however not what you would call ‘liberal’ so he is very strict when it comes to vegetarianism, spiritual discipline etc. That’s worth keeping in mind. 

thank you thank you thank you! 😘

Will look him up for sure! Oh the vegetarian ones... it's ok I can tolerate them unless they reach a point of radicalism. To each their own I say. But to anyone confused, vegetarianism is not actually in the books, it's just a suggestion (not a mandate). I'm too much into Swami Vivekananda & Adi Sankaracharya to not be liberal and discriminate in any way. Not my place. I am but a mere mortal after all. 

[Starlight]

2 hours ago, katrinka said:

The way the term is currently used and understood, it refers to white people taking from other races, and if you go back to the OP, that's what was meant here.

I see. Raggydoll linked to videos on the appropriation of Eastern spirituality in the first post, but I didn't think the topic was limited to Eastern spirituality. I see cultural appropriation as taking from another culture without respect and for profit or personal gain, so, for me cultural appropriation is a bit wider than "white people taking from other races". (For example, there's Colonial England and Ireland/Wales; there's also Japan & Korea (as I understood it from a former student) - these are the ones that immediately come to mind.) But I do accept that the way you've defined it is the way the term is currently used and understood in the US.

 

(ETA: Wasn't there some debacle with Kim Kardashian trying to trademark the word kimono as well?)

Edited December 11, 2019 by Starlight

[Starlight]

58 minutes ago, iMoodyCrab said:

Just for my understanding, do Native Americans call themselves Indians too? Is that appropriate? In school we were taught to always refer them as Native Americans.

I think, as Raggydoll has said, they prefer First Nations, but I'm not in the US and don't know any First Nations people so I really can't say with any certainty.

[Starlight]

1 hour ago, iMoodyCrab said:

For Australian Natives the appropriate term we were taught is "Aboriginals" and never to call them "Indigenous". Aboriginals feel offended when termed Indigenous as for them the word is used for plants and animals. 

I knew the term "Aboriginal" was the appropriate term (never Aborigine), but I didn't realise Indigenous (which I wouldn't use anyway) was for plants and animals. I've learned something new!

[Raggydoll]

21 minutes ago, Starlight said:

I see. Raggydoll linked to videos on the appropriation of Eastern spirituality in the first post, but I didn't think the topic was limited to Eastern spirituality. I see cultural appropriation as taking from another culture without respect and for profit or personal gain, so, for me cultural appropriation is a bit wider than "white people taking from other races". (For example, there's Colonial England and Ireland/Wales; there's also Japan & Korea (as I understood it from a former student) - these are the ones that immediately come to mind.) But I do accept that the way you've defined it is the way the term is currently used and understood in the US.

The topic is not limited to misappropriation or appropriation of eastern spirituality so you can certainly discuss other types of misappropriation too. And I greatly appreciate any information you or anyone else can share. 

 

In Sweden there is definitely a problem with racism towards the Sami people (they are the native - and I was going to say indigenous, but now I am a bit unsure whether that is a good term or not! - people of Sweden). Sami's have been treated horrendously in the past, and the racism is by no means gone. The Sami are mostly known for their reindeer herding and for their incredible craftsmanship. These days, however, there are non-Sami people that are selling reindeer meat and that are also making Sami type jewelry and Sami knives. It is a huge problem because it undermines their ability to support themselves plus it also floods the market with low quality items. Its hard to know if something is truly Sami made or not. And most books regarding Sami traditions seem to be written by non-Sami people. Its a real shame. We (me and my husband) used to live in a Sami community for a short while and my husbands boss was Sami. So we got to learn a lot and we saw the prejudice and the mistreatment of the Sami's close up. I have since tried to educate myself a bit more and I have read some books on Sami religion and Sami culture, and I have tried to be very mindful with the kind of books I choose. Its also an interesting topic for me since my children have a bit of Sami blood in them from their dads side. And it has meant a lot to my mother in law that we have taken an interest in her side of the family. 

 

Another thing that I want to mention is that a friend of mine - who is a native thai buddhist, told me that she is unable to read most of the books and scriptures about her faith since she was only allowed to go to school for a few years. Since they do not have an alphabet but uses signs for words, then that means that you only learn a certain number of words each year and that you are not able to read more advanced books until you have a big enough vocabulary. This was naturally a sadness for her. She showed me her gorgeous altar and the beautiful poster she had on the wall next to it. It contained inspiring quotes by Buddha. But sadly my friend could not read most of what it said, only fragments of it. As an adult she now lives in Sweden and she is taking a course to learn her native language better. She also wants her children to learn it. And when I thought about how entitled we westerners feel to have every sacred text from every part of the world translated into english... and then to know that a huge portion of the people who the religion is native to, cannot read those same texts. It just hurts. 

[katrinka]

54 minutes ago, Starlight said:

I see. Raggydoll linked to videos on the appropriation of Eastern spirituality in the first post, but I didn't think the topic was limited to Eastern spirituality. I see cultural appropriation as taking from another culture without respect and for profit or personal gain, so, for me cultural appropriation is a bit wider than "white people taking from other races". (For example, there's Colonial England and Ireland/Wales; there's also Japan & Korea (as I understood it from a former student) - these are the ones that immediately come to mind.) But I do accept that the way you've defined it is the way the term is currently used and understood in the US.

Good. 

There's been a lot of problems between England and the rest of the UK and Ireland. But Natives have had other Native tribes/nations who were enemies as well. I wouldn't say that a Lakota who was wearing some Crow item was "appropriating". 

54 minutes ago, Starlight said:

 

(ETA: Wasn't there some debacle with Kim Kardashian trying to trademark the word kimono as well?)

Yes. Kim and Kanye are buffoons, lol. 

[ilweran]

On a tangent I do find it interesting when people get offended on another countries/cultures behalf. Related to this is a tendency then in the press to ask one or two people's opinion on this and then assume that is the opinion of everyone from that country/culture.