The Queer Factor in Lenormand

[vulprix]

Hello!  I have been having A LOT of fun finally feeling more comfortable with the Lenormand lately, but I am wondering about the current trajectory of the Lenormand's gender assignments in context of its history.  I am also interested in how folks who are really into the practice of reading Lenormand feel about the whole thing.

 

I am a longtime queer.  (Lol, I don't describe myself often and am not fond of labels.)  Right now, I am dating a woman.  Yay!  I get to use my F/F Rana George Lenormand significator cards.

 

I will say that decks where the F/F partner is meant to be represented as the Snake do make me just a little uncomfortable, but I try not to be precious about it.  If a reader was using one of these decks for me in the sitter role, I would not be offended.  It just is what it is.  But it would amuse me, and I'd have to work to look past it, because it automatically gives my poor dating partner a negative connotation.  I don't really like spicy/cunning women, just sweethearts 😉 (A little joke, there.  Everyone's more complex than that.)  At least for men who date men, the Cavalier is much less ill-dignified--but it's no less weird because there will still be the Woman card opposite the Man, and vice-versa.

 

It has crossed my mind that if someone else was to read for me with a traditional deck, I would prefer to see a partner of any gender as the Man card.  Because I identify as a woman, and I would just know, "Okay, the Man card is my opposite."  This might complicate things for the reader unless they knew my love interest was same gender.

 

For romantic queries for myself, I will probably only use my Rana George Lenormand or another deck with F/F significators because it really feels that much more respectful and suitable.

 

What is your experience with "traditional" Lenormand decks which lack extra significator cards in the realm of readings for queer individuals?  What are your feelings on it if you date people who are not the opposite gender of you?  Also, have you ever used the Man card to mean a Woman, or vice-versa?

 

Thanks 🙂 

[joy]

Thanks @vulprix for brining this up, that is very interesting. I can not add a lot as I am just a beginner, but I do see why you would not to use the Snake in a F/F reading as the partner. Looking forward to read what our experienced readers will have to say.

[DanielJUK]

When the Lenormand Reading Circle started, we all got confused about Significators and @katrinka started this great thread on the issue -

 

 

It's worth a read. The Guest posts were contributions from AndyB.

 

I don't like the cards supposedly for lesbian or gay couples either, I think it comes from a time when there wasn't double cards in decks or decks catering for this.

The answer really is to ask people you are reading for what represents them and in a love reading, what represents their interest and also work it out for your own readings. We can choose what feels best for us. You can pick any card from the deck you want for both things.

 

Personally I am a gay non-binary man, I am happy with two Male cards or if the deck does not have this, I go for Lady for me, and Gentleman for an interest in love readings. My thinking is the opposite sex in the deck doesn't literally mean the opposite sex but the interest or other half of a person. However I know people who would be offended by that so you have to be a little careful in this area. Ask, what do they want, what card do they want to represent their partner or interest 🙂

 

As Katrinka points out in that old thread, some decks (like the Green Glyphs, I must get!) have a blank card!

[katrinka]

Thanks. 🙂
I just want to reiterate that you're not limited to the Snake. You have options other than "a woman who is probably older and not quite trustworthy." 😉 Any of the Queens can be used as a female Significator, so besides the Snake, you've got Roads, Stork, and Flowers. The Bear is kind of gender neutral and is sometimes read as a protective, "mama bear" type. Some readers see the Dog as gender neutral and assign it as circumstances dictate. The Child can be a young woman. Lenormand is full of people cards. 

 

[fire cat pickles]

Didn't Andy say we could assign Tower as a person card also? I may be mistaken.

[katrinka]

8 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said:

Didn't Andy say we could assign Tower as a person card also? I may be mistaken.

It's uncommon, but not completely unheard of. From the blog: "In my younger days, the High Tower often indicated a widow. I do not see that as much these days, and it does not regularly appear to describe someone as a divorcee."

https://circlestead.com/the-high-tower/

 

[fire cat pickles]

3 minutes ago, katrinka said:

It's uncommon, but not completely unheard of. From the blog: "In my younger days, the High Tower often indicated a widow. I do not see that as much these days, and it does not regularly appear to describe someone as a divorcee."

https://circlestead.com/the-high-tower/

 

Thanks! 

[vulprix]

Thank you so much for these replies already!  (I love this place 😍)

 

@joy, thank you for your understanding response! 🙂 

 

@DanielJUK and @katrinka, this information is invaluable!  *gets Lenormand journal out*  And Daniel, I am very happy to read your perspective as well.  I feel similarly to you about the options for significators, and I like your "answer"--just always ask the querent what is suitable.  I have a similar love and admiration for the Green Glyphs Lenormand!  Jeez, so gorgeous.  One day, one day...

 

Gonna just point out that the Bear as an option for a "mama bear" type is so wonderful and brings me happiness.  (Of course the Bear would also be a suitable... bear🧔🙂)

 

Totally look forward to more replies and perspectives.

[Mi-Shell]

I too am an absolute newbie with Lenormand and just beginning to learn. So I asked this question to a lady reader in our "next town  further north".

She said, that she has 2 identical decks and uses the second deck only in order to have a second gentleman and lady card.

[Wyrdkiss]

I purchased a cool Lenormand on Etsy from Germany with an optional expansion pack that includes numerous options for a variety of identifications.

I cannot recall what all is in the expansion ( I rarely dabble in Lenormand), but it seems quite versatile.  

Edited January 24, 2022 by Wyrdkiss

[gregory]

8 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

When the Lenormand Reading Circle started, we all got confused about Significators and @katrinka started this great thread on the issue -

 

 

It's worth a read. The Guest posts were contributions from AndyB.

 

I don't like the cards supposedly for lesbian or gay couples either, I think it comes from a time when there wasn't double cards in decks or decks catering for this.

The answer really is to ask people you are reading for what represents them and in a love reading, what represents their interest and also work it out for your own readings. We can choose what feels best for us. You can pick any card from the deck you want for both things.

 

Personally I am a gay non-binary man, I am happy with two Male cards or if the deck does not have this, I go for Lady for me, and Gentleman for an interest in love readings. My thinking is the opposite sex in the deck doesn't literally mean the opposite sex but the interest or other half of a person. However I know people who would be offended by that so you have to be a little careful in this area. Ask, what do they want, what card do they want to represent their partner or interest 🙂

 

As Katrinka points out in that old thread, some decks (like the Green Glyphs, I must get!) have a blank card!

 

Thanks for that Daniel. I am a newb with Lenormand too - but I would stick with the 36 cards and let people choose a significator. As with tarot, I am very much of a mind that the two sexes - yin and yang, whatever - are simply the two halves of a partnership, and that  it really doesn't matter in the reading if they are male or female (or dragons - and not a lot of my sitters have taken issue with being represented by a dragon) I've received loads of readings where the card seen as representing me was mile - so what ? It's the message tat counts. This sort of fits with all the discussion about court cards being gender limited or not. It's almost overthinking.

[gregory]

6 hours ago, Mi-Shell said:

I too am an absolute newbie with Lenormand and just beginning to learn. So I asked this question to a lady reader in our "next town  further north".

She said, that she has 2 identical decks and uses the second deck only in order to have a second gentleman and lady card.

 

How would she tell those two identical cards apart when she comes to read ?

[ilweran]

5 hours ago, gregory said:

I've received loads of readings where the card seen as representing me was mile - so what ? It's the message tat counts. This sort of fits with all the discussion about court cards being gender limited or not. It's almost overthinking.

You know while I agree with this, and as I'm married to a man this hasn't come up for me as an issue, I also feel if I were in a relationship with a woman I'd want two female cards. I suspect it's something to do with acknowledgment and recognition of a same-sex relationship.

Edited January 24, 2022 by ilweran

[WizardintheWoods]

I was active in the thread that was shared from Katrinka. Andy validated a lot of what I was feeling at that time. Take note in that thread of the Child card please. As an almost 60 yr old gay male, reading cards for quite sometime, this is an important issue.  To this day I still ask the Sitter to choose the Significator and lay out 28,29 and 13. This often starts a conversation which overtime I have seen turn a few lightbulbs over heads. For me it’s the Sitter’s call, not mine - it is their reading after all. 

[vulprix]

4 hours ago, ilweran said:

You know while agree with this, and as I'm married to a man this hasn't come up for me as an issue, I also feel if I were in a relationship with a woman I'd want two female cards. I suspect it's something to do with acknowledgment and recognition of a same-sex relationship.

This exactly. While not necessary, I do think it just feels much better. It’s like, my love interest is not a snake, not a man, not a bear—they’re a lady.

 

The fact that the Man card, deliberately drawn to appear opposite the Woman, would still be there is kind of like a, “Yeah, yeah, this COULD be your lover if you wanted it to represent as much!”

 

Honestly, as I said in my original post, I don’t see this as a big deal. But extra other-gendered cards make everything a little clearer and less “funny” if the option is available. And it is interesting how modernity is changing the expectations of the old decks.

 

I do not blame the Lenormand. I vividly remember a time when it felt impossible to date a woman, let alone openly, if you were not super out. And the Lenormand is much older than I am 🙂 

 

I do LOVE that other Queen cards are an option and will probably practice this going forward. I can even see it like,

 

Storks - New relationship 

Bouquet - Established/flowering relationship

Crossroads - A relationship experiencing a bit of trouble, at an impasse

 

@gregory, I feel like a tiny dot on one end of the significator card from one of the decks could serve a directional purpose in the case same-sex significators are used.

 

I do think that if you’re gonna have same-sex options, using the Ace of Hearts and Ace of Spades designations for each pair combination are very useful.

Edited January 24, 2022 by vulprix

[selena]

14 hours ago, vulprix said:

I will say that decks where the F/F partner is meant to be represented as the Snake do make me just a little uncomfortable, but I try not to be precious about it

Technically, it’s not the snake so much as the queen of clubs. But I can understand your feelings. 

 

But as others have said it is not limited to that queen as the other three (especially the queens of spades and hearts) can all be women as can the dog and the bear (who are gender-neutral).
 

The jack of spades (child) and jack of hearts (heart) can also be a woman and man too. 
 

 

[katrinka]

5 hours ago, gregory said:

 

Thanks for that Daniel. I am a newb with Lenormand too - but I would stick with the 36 cards and let people choose a significator.

 

Exactly. There's no shortage of options in the original 36.
It's a win/win. You get self-determination without the complications imposed by extra cards.
 

5 hours ago, gregory said:

How would she tell those two identical cards apart when she comes to read ?

That's a very good question. Two identical decks? The cards wouldn't even be facing the same way. I don't use extra Gent and Lady cards, but even those tend to face in different directions.
 

2 minutes ago, selena said:

The jack of spades (child) and jack of hearts (heart) can also be a woman and man too. 

 

The Heart especially is an excellent choice for a partner card.
Exactly. If they're not familiar with the cards, the reader can offer guidance: Is he young, active, athletic? Rider. A bear type? Bear. Etc. But it's important to

[katrinka]

@vulprix - Stork might also be someone tall and leggy. Bouquet could be someone creative. There's a lot of ways of looking at them. 😉

[Mi-Shell]

6 hours ago, gregory said:

 

How would she tell those two identical cards apart when she comes to read ?

I will ask her tonight - and report back 🙂

[joy]

Thanks everyone for this great discussion!

So if I would read for a F/F couple and the querent would identify as the Lady and her partner as the Snake, it means I would 'miss' the Snake then if I would do a GT?

Am I making this too complicated?

[frankie]

16 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

When the Lenormand Reading Circle started, we all got confused about Significators and @katrinka started this great thread on the issue

Great thread. Thank you.

 

5 hours ago, WizardintheWoods said:

To this day I still ask the Sitter to choose the Significator and lay out 28,29 and 13.

Yes, thank you for highlighting the Child, card 13. I have found this to be the best solution for me. To echo what others have said, I, too, prefer to stick with the 36 cards as is--I find the system flexible and yes, filled with a range of different person cards to mirror all the different types of interactions/relations we have in life, professional, familial, romantic, platonic, etc. This was also mentioned in the older thread, but people are people, then and now, and I believe the 36-cards have the flexibility to reflect that.

 

For example, the Lady is my significator card, and I have had the King of Spades show up as a love-interest and the Lord as a close family member--it made sense in the context of the reading. I say this because my working preference (subject to change!) is to have the choice of significator, but leave the rest up to the cards/context to determine who represents who but without assuming anything.

 

I am of course very new to reading Lenormand and am grateful to have this thread where I can hear others' perspectives.

[DanielJUK]

I was thinking for reference in this thread that Male or "male energy" people cards to go with the Female suggestions would be.....

 

1. Rider (a Man / Knight rides along)

4. House (King of Hearts)

6. Clouds (King of Clubs)

28. Gentleman

30. Lily (King of Spades)

34. Fish (King of Diamonds)

 

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, joy said:

Thanks everyone for this great discussion!

So if I would read for a F/F couple and the querent would identify as the Lady and her partner as the Snake, it means I would 'miss' the Snake then if I would do a GT?

Am I making this too complicated?

 

Not at all. The Snake would be the partner in some of the lines - particularly the cards that connect it with the Lady, but there may be others. In other lines, it might be talking about something else, like plumbing and pipes. 😉

[katrinka]

20 minutes ago, DanielJUK said:

I was thinking for reference in this thread that Male or "male energy" people cards to go with the Female suggestions would be.....

 

1. Rider (a Man / Knight rides along)

4. House (King of Hearts)

6. Clouds (King of Clubs)

28. Gentleman

30. Lily (King of Spades)

34. Fish (King of Diamonds)

 

 

Yes. And Dog and Bear can be male, too. They're flexible.

[gregory]

2 hours ago, Mi-Shell said:

I will ask her tonight - and report back 🙂

Don't worry about it - that "dot" suggestion  from vulprix is probably the answer - and it really isn't necessary to use two decks anyway. !