Thoth deck... Thought, experience and feelings please.

[Tarotnewbie]

Hi all... I have been thinking of getting a thoth deck lately and was wondering about what you all have to say, people who are using it and used it. I also have heard that this deck may not be of good energy, is that true? I have also heard that this deck is less about divination and more about spiritual ascension. I really like the deck and some of the ideas behind it, the ones i heard and understood. Just want to understand more before i take the plunge... what to expect, dos and don't and stuff like that. I would be very grateful if anyone could respond to this. Thank you 🙏 

[Flaxen]

I have the Thoth - it was the second deck I ever bought and I used it almost exclusively for many years. 
 

The artwork is beautiful and easily read - even if you don’t immediately understand all the ideas in it. It is deep, richly symbolic and rewarding of study. I wouldn’t let yourself be put off by the naysayers until you’ve had a chance to experience it for yourself. Some people are very negative about it due to Crowley’s reputation but it’s never been a ‘negative’ deck for me. On the contrary, it has been a profound and encouraging guide - although does not pull punches either. 
 

You may also wish to check out M.M. Meleen’s decks which follow Crowley’s work closely. 

[RunningWild]

I find the Thoth and all Thoth based tarot very direct.  To say that it pulls no punches is kind of an understatement.  Forget about the negative Nancys and indulge yourself.

[Tarotnewbie]

5 hours ago, Flaxen said:

I have the Thoth - it was the second deck I ever bought and I used it almost exclusively for many years. 
 

The artwork is beautiful and easily read - even if you don’t immediately understand all the ideas in it. It is deep, richly symbolic and rewarding of study. I wouldn’t let yourself be put off by the naysayers until you’ve had a chance to experience it for yourself. Some people are very negative about it due to Crowley’s reputation but it’s never been a ‘negative’ deck for me. On the contrary, it has been a profound and encouraging guide - although does not pull punches either. 
 

You may also wish to check out M.M. Meleen’s decks which follow Crowley’s work closely. 

Thank you @Flaxen for sharing your experience. I am drawn to the deck and also hesitant at the same time. hence posted here to see what you all had to say about it.

[Tarotnewbie]

2 hours ago, RunningWild said:

I find the Thoth and all Thoth based tarot very direct.  To say that it pulls no punches is kind of an understatement.  Forget about the negative Nancys and indulge yourself.

OK, so do you men that there is no sugar coating in the message? Can the messages hit us hard if we aren't ready to hear the answer. I have also heard about the layers of symbolism and kabbalah with this deck... this makes it an even more interesting thing for me about it. Thanks for sharing your two cents. 🙂 

[RunningWild]

3 hours ago, Tarotnewbie said:

OK, so do you men that there is no sugar coating in the message? Can the messages hit us hard if we aren't ready to hear the answer. I have also heard about the layers of symbolism and kabbalah with this deck... this makes it an even more interesting thing for me about it. Thanks for sharing your two cents. 🙂 

 

I find the Thoth deck is very assertive.  And it's true that there other layers to it as there are other layers to the Waite-Smith deck.  Waite tended to somewhat hide things whereas Crowley seemed to believe in baring it all, in a manner of speaking.  I find both decks infinitely interesting but yes, I would have to agree that there's a lot less sugar-coating going on with the Thoth.

[DanielJUK]

20 hours ago, Tarotnewbie said:

Hi all... I have been thinking of getting a thoth deck lately and was wondering about what you all have to say, people who are using it and used it. I also have heard that this deck may not be of good energy, is that true? I have also heard that this deck is less about divination and more about spiritual ascension. I really like the deck and some of the ideas behind it, the ones i heard and understood. Just want to understand more before i take the plunge... what to expect, dos and don't and stuff like that. I would be very grateful if anyone could respond to this. Thank you 🙏 

 

I am a dabbler in Thoth, I want to get more into it but I am slowly moving more into it and I am sure my Thoth knowledgable friends know more about this area than me 🙂

I would ignore the negative mythology about it, Aleister Crowley loved the notoriety with the reputation and press he got here in the UK. One newspaper famously had the front page that he was "the wickedest man in the world" and another said he was the “Master Of Darkness". But he loved this media attention! He is a controversial figure who studied various occult systems and believed fundamentally that you could ascend spiritually from the Earth. He controversially told his followers at one point that he was beyond the Gods. As well his esoteric studies, he was into erotica and combined things like tantric sex and had male and female lovers. That was a lot for 1910's / 1920's England and Europe to handle. He travelled the world and learnt many new ideas from different countries which he included in his writings. So personally I think whatever the truth about him, you can just read his ideas and use the deck. To worry the deck as bad energy is a bit like when people say if you use RWS you will be cursed! It's superstition. The deck has some really interesting ideas, associations and correspondences.

 

I know less about the deck than the man, as I am a beginner to it and once read a book about Crowley to learn about him 🙂 .

It's not a black and white situation, you can go into the Thoth system as much as you like and try it and see if you like it. There are several Thoth decks but some decks are sort of Thoth style but have a RWS style artwork. I have the Zillich Tarot, this is beautiful watercoloured artworks but they have the Thoth correspondences around the border. It's not Thoth art but it has the symbols on each card and the system's numbering style. I read it as an RWS deck for years but have started to look at the Thoth correspondences when I use it. I am dipping my toe in a little and I have already found the planet associations so interesting and it has changed my usual tarot reading in a way. I am learning astrology separately and it helped me to combine it all. You can even read a RWS style deck and try the correspondences with it! Waite was also in the Golden Dawn but he made the deck from a more Christian and storytelling direction. You can see some of the Thoth ideas there but it's very subtle. So don't feel like you have to dive into a new system, try using some of the ideas already!

 

There is a Thoth area of the forum if it helps with some old discussions. You can always post threads / discussions, get advice if you start going that way in there.

@Rose Lalonde made this amazing thread of correspondences.....

 

 

I visit a lot for the astrology stuff!

 

Don't feel pressure, you can use Thoth however you like. Like any tarot deck, you don't have to use it for a spiritual journey, you can use it however it suits you 🙂

[vulprix]

I highly recommend a Thoth deck for study, and even for reading if you’re feeling it! Is a very dense, yet direct, deck with absolutely gorgeous artwork. I wish I didn’t have to feel a little hyperbolic talking about it, but it is truly special and an historic achievement.

 

If you get one and don’t like it, someone will gladly receive it from you. I know I would! The only question is now, what size? 😁

[Eric13]

I'm not a fan of the Thoth deck. It's just too much for me visually, I can't grasp anything from it. However, I do like Crowley's book and I've read it extensively. His book does lean more toward the traditional Golden Dawns meanings. Which is a history and definitions I like. 

[Tarotnewbie]

On 7/18/2022 at 9:56 PM, RunningWild said:

I find the Thoth deck is very assertive.  And it's true that there other layers to it as there are other layers to the Waite-Smith deck.  Waite tended to somewhat hide things whereas Crowley seemed to believe in baring it all, in a manner of speaking.  I find both decks infinitely interesting but yes, I would have to agree that there's a lot less sugar-coating going on with the Thoth.

Thanks for sharing your insight @RunningWild, appreciate it.

[Tarotnewbie]

@DanielJUK you always are very informative and I learn a lot from your insights. Thanks for sharing all the info and for the discussion thread. Really appreciate your time and patience.

[Tarotnewbie]

On 7/19/2022 at 9:41 AM, vulprix said:

I highly recommend a Thoth deck for study, and even for reading if you’re feeling it! Is a very dense, yet direct, deck with absolutely gorgeous artwork. I wish I didn’t have to feel a little hyperbolic talking about it, but it is truly special and an historic achievement.

 

If you get one and don’t like it, someone will gladly receive it from you. I know I would! The only question is now, what size? 😁

even I felt the art work is gorgeous on the deck. I can understand your hyperbolic-ness ... so don't worry about that. Thanks for sharing your 2 cents. I am buying the regular size or the pocket sized ones, not sure yet. 

[Tarotnewbie]

On 7/19/2022 at 6:35 PM, Eric13 said:

'm not a fan of the Thoth deck. It's just too much for me visually, I can't grasp anything from it. However, I do like Crowley's book and I've read it extensively. His book does lean more toward the traditional Golden Dawns meanings. Which is a history and definitions I like. 

I can see that they are visually very busy cards. Most of the cards I won are very heavy on artwork... They sort of transort me into another world and help intuit a lot of info, which may not have to do anything with the card 's meaning as such. I will have to look up the golden dawn meanings and thoth meanings ... that is going to be some amount of study. Thanks for sharing your 2 cents. Really appreciate it. 🙏

[Ix Chel]

@Tarotnewbie I have a Thoth deck, but I never read with it. I want to study this deck for years, but for some reason it will not work for me.  There is a podcast from Mel Meleen and Susan T Chang, about this deck. And Lon Milo Duquette has written a book about it.

 

I would say, if you are attracted to this deck, than give it a try.  Like Barbara Moore says: Your Tarot your way. And if the Thoth is your way, than that is totally fine. And if you find out that it was not your way. Do not worry you would have gain enough Tarot knowledge for an other system like the RWS. Just follow your own feeling in your Tarot journey.

[Tarotnewbie]

@Ix Chel i am so sorry to get back to you on your reply so late. I read it and forgot to reply. i hope you can let this one slide by. Really appreciate your input in the deck. In fact i took your suggestion on going with what i feel. 

[Tarotnewbie]

Thanks everyone, finally got the deck and really love it.

[Rock_Joe]

I love my Thoth deck and consider it my main deck. I don't think it has bad energy but what I WILL say is that it can be very direct, even by tarot standards, which is why I'm still not comfortable reading for others with it and only use it for myself when I wanna go DEEP and when I want the straight dope. 🙂

[pacificwaters]

On 9/26/2022 at 9:39 PM, Tarotnewbie said:

Thanks everyone, finally got the deck and really love it.

I just chanced upon this thread. I am so happy to know that you too have started with this deck. How is your experience with the Thoth? 

[Wyrdkiss]

My personal Thoth is my truest tarot friend. Enjoy your journey. Lon Milo Duquette's book is a must. 

[Aeon418]

21 hours ago, Wyrdkiss said:

Lon Milo Duquette's book is a must. 

 

I'm beginning to feel the same way about the trilogy of Thoth Tarot books written by Marcus Katz. (Although "must" might be a little too strong.) I'm currently on my second read through and am impressed how he manages to be so accessible and readable, while remaining very faithful to the original source material written by Crowley. That's no mean feat.

[Flegetanis]

I actually found the "Tarot, Tea, & Me" forum because of a very specialized post about the Thoth Tower card by Aeon418.

 

I am a Thelemite, but I'm also immersed in a tradition of Qabalah that doesn't see much use in the Hermetic traditions. As I consider it far superior to the overall Golden Dawn/Rosy Cross system of Tree of Life correspondences upon which the Thoth deck is firmly based, there's a lot about the Thoth deck that just doesn't work for me. But, in particular, I really just don't like the colors of the Minor Arcana. I don't like the titles, either, but they're not original to Crowley. The only other "issue" is a doctrinal one; as far as I can discern, Tzaddi is the Star, but it's not Path 28! 🤪   

 

It is  because of this mess that I cannot normally recommend The Qabalistic Tarot by Robert Wang -- except in this context. He has some very useful insights into the overall Golden Dawn system that underlies three of the four decks he uses to illustrate to work (the Waite-Smith, Wang's own version - the first publicly printed - of the Golden Dawn Tarot, and Crowley's Thoth deck; in addition to the Tarot de Marseilles). He also has important insights into the Thoth Tarot in particular, as it exists within this system. 

 

Personally, the only other thing I've ever read beyond The Book of Thoth was Lon DuQuette's book, Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot. Brother Lon fills in a lot of good information, and does much to soften the blow of reading The Book of Thoth. 😜 

Edited February 20, 2024 by Flegetanis

[Flegetanis]

59 minutes ago, Aeon418 said:

 

I'm beginning to feel the same way about the trilogy of Thoth Tarot books written by Marcus Katz. (Although "must" might be a little too strong.) I'm currently on my second read through and am impressed how he manages to be so accessible and readable, while remaining very faithful to the original source material written by Crowley. That's no mean feat.

 

AHA 

 

So, last week, I was trying to find good discussion about "There is the dove, and there is the serpent" & Google led me to your post in this forum about Atu XVI. That's how I found "Tarot, Tea, & Me"; dig it. 93s!

[Flegetanis]

On 7/18/2022 at 12:53 PM, Flaxen said:

You may also wish to check out M.M. Meleen’s decks which follow Crowley’s work closely. 

 

I'm very gratified that "certain agitators" are beginning to accept newer developments in Thelemic Tarot. Again, that "Tzaddi is not the Star" thing doesn't work for me, but otherwise, M.M.'s Tabula Mundi Tarot is by far the best. It's also my favorite for a game called "Qabalistic Eights," as the connective tissue of the deck's symbolism is a real aid in playing it well. Also, Lon DuQuette's own Tarot of Ceremonial Magick is a masterpiece, tying together all the major magical systems of Thelema.

Edited February 20, 2024 by Flegetanis

[Nemia]

Thoth was my first deck and for quite some time, my only deck. I'm deeply attached to it and use it all the time. It's absolutely reliable. If you read with the Thoth, you will get an answer, and it will tell you the truth. 

 

When I started out, I had a good basic understanding of Astrology but no further esoteric knowledge. Everything I know now is thanks to the Thoth. It's not only a beautiful deck that reads precisely but also a great teacher. 

 

There are a number of things I dislike about Crowley. He writes in a style that is obscure and opaque, playing with Hebrew words and making it difficult on purpose to understand what he says. DuQuette does a good job of explaining it in clear language. After reading his book, reading Crowley is much easier. DuQuette's book is really good, but I'll look into Katz as well. However, I feel by now that the deck speaks to me personally so clearly that I read the books only for pleasure, it doesn't impact my work with the deck. I feel very comfortable with the Thoth, it's challenging but in a very good way. 

 

Another thing I dislike about Crowley is his tendency to grandiosity and his misogynist view of the feminine side of the world (or what is traditionally seen as feminine side). Generations of thinkers defined the feminine principle as dark, negative, passive, corrupting. Okay, that's how it is, I don't have to adopt that view. We all have limitations imposed on us by our cultural background and personality. You see it in his interpretation of Netzach, the realm of Venus. It's not difficult to integrate the shadow and light side and to get a more well-rounded view of these sephirah or cards Crowley tends to see as less valuable. 

 

So many newer decks have corrected or even over-corrected the preference for the masculine that it's really no problem anymore for me. 

 

Living every day with the Hebrew language, there are some GD ideas that will always puzzle me. The disconnection of Hebrew letters (which are also numbers) from the numerical values of the majors is counter-intuitive and feels wrong. How can bet mean One? Bet is and will always be Two. But the Hebrew letters are not used for counting in the deck anyway, otherwise they'd continue after Ten with yud-alef, yud-bet etc. It's a symbolic association and I can live with it. 

 

Knowing Hebrew, it also disturbs me to read words like Geburah which are impossible in Hebrew. It's Gvurah. It's against the basic rules of Hebrew to have a double letter like bet in the first syllable of a three-syllable word. (It must be a vet and the e turns into a shva). That mistake didn't start with Crowley, it simply shows that some early translators of Hebrew texts didn't have a complete grasp of the language, and I have made my peace with that. (I always write Gvurah 😉 ). Nobody is perfect, but the Thoth as a deck is as nearly perfect as it's possible for any human undertaking to be. 

 

I can only encourage Thoth newbies to jump in. Just start reading with it. As soon as you know the esoteric associations by heart, cut off the borders, or keep two copies, one with and one without the borders (or make a little cheat sheet). The beauty of a borderless Thoth where one card interacts directly with its neighbours is one of the most wonderful things you can see in tarot. 

 

The complexity of this deck is a reflection of the complexity of life and our inner being. That makes it actually easy to read with. There are so many places where you can put your hook and start to climb in. 

 

The Thoth cards have become a part of my inner landscape. My children call this deck "Mama's cards" because I keep it with me at all times. 

 

I also encourage you to study it without a book. 

 

You may find it interesting for example to take out all the cards associated with one planet and put them together. 

 

 

Here for example are all the cards associated with Saturn. You can feel the heaviness, oppression, the leaden atmosphere that this far away planet imposes on its cards. 

 

Another way of studying it is by looking at the major and its minors with the planetary cards that represent each planetary ruler. 

 

 

Here for example we have the Emperor with Mars (Tower) in Aries, the Sun in Aries and Venus in Aries. You can see how the planets influence the card further. 

 

Each card turns into a field where different influences meet. 

 

It's simply very well done, very elegant, visually compelling and complex. 

 

The Thoth is the visual interpretation of these complex relationships between signs and planets, the Tree of LIfe sephiroth and the elementary character of the suit. It all works together so well. It's a closed and logical system, like a flawless model of the cosmos, and at the same time, it's open to  your personal, individual interpretation when applied to your question and the whole layout. 

 

I love this deck, and I also love the Tabula Mundi which does the same work in a different visual language. 

 

Just look at the core of my tarot calendar right now. 

 

We're in the first decan of Pisces, Saturn in Pisces, Eight of Cups, Hod in Briah. 

 

 

On the left, the major card for Pisces - the Moon. On the right, the minor card - Eight of Cups. 

 

The lower cards are: moon phase, planetary ruler (the Universe for Saturn) and the day (it was on Monday). 

 

A lot of Moon, and three nude female torsos on the Moon, Eight of Cups and Universe cards. 

 

The cards speak to each other, much more so than the RWS cards do. No shade on the RWS, it's a solid narrative deck and the esoteric content is hidden well. But nothing compares to Thoth and its descendant, the Tabula Mundi. It opens the door to a horary, everything is interconnected in cosmic harmony. 

 

Okay, I said too much already. 

 

Work with the Thoth, and it will reward you. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Barleywine]

It was my first deck in 1972 and I used it exclusively until 2011. I do my best work with it. I was a student of the Hermetic Qabalah and a natal astrologer before i picked up tarot, which helped quite a bit. I'm glad someone mentioned the Tabula Mundi; I find the Colores Arcus edition to be "second among equals" with the Thoth.