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Best Tdm Deck for Beginners

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katrinka

It's a TdM thing. A lot of people (I'm looking at you, too, Jodo/Camoin) like to claim the One True TdM.
But there isn't one. Use what you like,

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Raggydoll
22 minutes ago, katrinka said:

It's a TdM thing. A lot of people (I'm looking at you, too, Jodo/Camoin) like to claim the One True TdM.
But there isn't one. Use what you like,

True. I might even make my own *gasp* 🤗

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leroidetrèfle
12 hours ago, _R_ said:

 

With all due respect to the late J.-C. Flornoy, his criticisms - and I refer to his page here https://www.letarot.com/dossier-chaud/heritiers-de-nicolas-conver/  - are most certainly unfair as well as uninformed and misleading as far as Marteau's deck & book are concerned.

 

Fair enough _R_ , however I was referring more to the stylistic criticisms. Some of those are fair. I’ve also pointed out in the past that some criticisms of Marteau’s changes are more correct of Flornoy’s restorations or Camoin-Jodorowsky’s Deck. I meant no respect. 

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katrinka
15 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

True. I might even make my own *gasp* 🤗

I await yours with bated breath. You come out with great stuff. ❤️
No, it won't be a "Marseilles proper". But neither is the Lasenic, the Flamand, or the Thoth. And those are some great decks. :)

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Raggydoll
13 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I await yours with bated breath. You come out with great stuff. ❤️
No, it won't be a "Marseilles proper". But neither is the Lasenic, the Flamand, or the Thoth. And those are some great decks. 🙂

Yes I’ll just have to resist being cheeky and naming it The True TdM 🤣 (I do have a teeny bit of self preservation skills, I promise! It’s just my humor that is very poor 😁)

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leroidetrèfle
1 hour ago, katrinka said:

It's a TdM thing. A lot of people (I'm looking at you, too, Jodo/Camoin) like to claim the One True TdM.
But there isn't one. Use what you like,

This. 

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Marigold

There is still a tradition that needs to be respected. When Camoin for example adds eggs to his Papesse, implying that she represents Mary Magdalene who ended up in France with her daughter, the child of Jesus, we're no longer in a tradition. But in the realm of fantasy and wild speculation and taking one's dreams for a reality.

 

I understand why he did it. We even discussed this together over lunch once a long time ago. He really believes it. But it has nothing to do with the TdM tradition. 

 

 

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Raggydoll
2 minutes ago, Marigold said:

There is still a tradition that needs to be respected. When Camoin for example adds eggs to his Papesse, implying that she represents Mary Magdalene who ended up in France with her daughter, the child of Jesus, we're no longer in a tradition. But in the realm of fantasy and wild speculation and taking one's dreams for a reality.

Oh wow. As you say, it makes for good fiction but it has nothing to do with history or tradition. 

 

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Marigold

That's why I said it's a lovely bedtime story/deck. But I still have a lot of respect for it in spite of this. A huge amount of work went into and it was truly a labour of love for both Camoin and Jodorowsky.

 

Edited to add : also when he says he's the last direct descendant of the Camoin house... I'd like to see proof of this. I'm not saying it's not true. But I'd like some proof all the same. 

Edited by Marigold

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Raggydoll
48 minutes ago, Marigold said:

That's why I said it's a lovely bedtime story/deck. But I still have a lot of respect for it in spite of this. A huge amount of work went into and it was truly a labour of love for both Camoin and Jodorowsky.

 

Edited to add : also when he says he's the last direct descendant of the Camoin house... I'd like to see proof of this. I'm not saying it's not true. But I'd like some proof all the same. 

That’s a very reasonable request. I can’t see why someone making such a claim would be against providing some papers to back it up. But surely someone else will have looked into it by now? 

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Marigold
3 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

That’s a very reasonable request. I can’t see why someone making such a claim would be against providing some papers to back it up. But surely someone else will have looked into it by now? 

I don't know if anyone's looked into it. Now that you say so, I would reckon someone would have by now.

 

Can't be hard though if someone wanted to I would imagine. The birth and death records must surely be public. I wouldn't do myself though.

 

Sometimes I think that I don't mind a bit of fantasy in my life so if it's true or not, so what. It's not like it's doing any great harm. 

 

You know, I think some people create myths and legends for themselves (or perhaps we all do, through our false memories for instance), and these legends and myths somehow become PART of them. It becomes part of their identity. To remove these myths would be quite a violent act. 

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Saturn Celeste

:170:  Ignore the scowl on this guys face!  I do apologize I suggested the Jodorowsky deck.  To me it is a Marseilles deck with an interesting book.  The question was asked of a member wanting to start out in the TdM deck world, not a discussion on the problems of Jodorowsky deck.  I happen to like the guy, I am a huge Dune fan and have seem his ideas relating to his own version of Dune.  But this thread is not about what's wrong with a particular deck but instead what decks can we all recommend to the member asking the question.  My first reaction was the 1JJ Swiss deck that I started out on but it's OOP and very expensive so I suggested the other Marseilles deck that I use and was reasonably priced.

 

I'm not angry or upset with anyone!!  But I do feel this conversation is going way off topic.  It has been interesting to see everyone jump on the Jodorowsky deck and I promise I won't recommend it again!  I'll just read with it and submit tons of photos!! :evil:  j/k

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leroidetrèfle
1 hour ago, Marigold said:

There is still a tradition that needs to be respected. When Camoin for example adds eggs to his Papesse, implying that she represents Mary Magdalene who ended up in France with her daughter, the child of Jesus, we're no longer in a tradition. But in the realm of fantasy and wild speculation and taking one's dreams for a reality.

 

I understand why he did it. We even discussed this together over lunch once a long time ago. He really believes it. But it has nothing to do with the TdM tradition. 

 

 

That is my view, too. What I found with the Camoin deck was that it was potpourri of distraction.
 

Once I knew that there was an egg, or an extra toe, they were ever-present and attention grabbing. One reason I prefer working with the Marseille-style is I’m not dealing with other people’s narratives or systems. I just have eikōns that create a tableau. 

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leroidetrèfle

Apologises, Saturn Celeste. I can see that it may appear off-topic. However having taught TdM I do think some of the criticisms towards the Camoin-Jodorowsky (and Fournier) here quite valid when recommending a beginners’ introduction to the Marseille. 

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katrinka

Yes. If one deck is recommended over another, I think it's important to say why - and that can often involve some criticism of the not-recommended deck.

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gregory

*cough* I am fond of the Fournier. Don't hit me.

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Marigold

I will as from this point on respect the request, understandable, to keep this thread on topic (although it's a bit late now 😂 - it could almost be renamed) - I just want to add one thing I think maybe some people don't know.

 

Philip Camoin didn't INVENT the story of Mary Magdalene coming to France with her and Jesus' daughter. It is an oral tradition that has been passed down for centuries, particularly in the South of France. I have never discounted it as impossible on the contrary, I think it could well be true, at least part of it. I mean, the woman had to go SOMEWHERE. And for a long time, even before Camoin's deck had been published, and before I'd even heard of him, I wondered the same as he did. I didn't only wonder, my research at the time even led me to think that maybe the Papesse represented Mary Magdalene once come to France.  But that didn't last long. So when I saw the egg, I thought "oh my, he thought the same but he really believes it."

 

I don't have time to find a really good website that speaks of this, so I'll just throw one here which gives a basic idea. I didn't read it well though -  skimmed the first paragraphs. Maybe you should do some more research if you're interested and find a better website. 

 

http://www.sacredmysterytours.com/mary-magdalene#sthash.Ji0k4TNC.dpbs

Edited by Marigold

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Marigold
23 minutes ago, gregory said:

*cough* I am fond of the Fournier. Don't hit me.

You can be fond of it all you like gregory ! Hey, I even have a Cat (the miaow type) Tarot of Marseilles (two in fact). But the Fournier is... well, sort of well... let's leave it at that. 😎 (the following is written in very tiny letters - not really a TdM. TdM doesn't do disco.) Love it all you like but don't recommend it !!

Edited by Marigold

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gregory

There's LOADS of stuff all over the Camargue about this, especially in Saintes Maries-de-la-Mer, where they have exhibitions and all sorts.

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gregory
1 minute ago, Marigold said:

You can be fond of it all you like gregory ! Hey, I even have a Cat (the miaow type) Tarot of Marseilles (two in fact). But the Fournier is... well, sort of well... let's leave it at that. 😎 (the following is written in very tiny letters - not really a TdM. TdM doesn't do disco.) 

But it appears in Father Ted. How cool is that ?

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Marigold
3 minutes ago, gregory said:

But it appears in Father Ted. How cool is that ?

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

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Raggydoll
6 hours ago, gregory said:

There's LOADS of stuff all over the Camargue about this, especially in Saintes Maries-de-la-Mer, where they have exhibitions and all sorts.

I know 😀. I like to watch lectures by prof Bart Ehrman who is an agnostic New Testament scholar (who does history, not theology). And he has discussed this many times. He even wrote a book discussing the problematic and incorrect ideas of the Da Vinci Code and he did make it clear that Dan Brown did not come up with that Mary Magdalene-baby theory.  (He actually enjoyed reading the book but he thinks it should be labeled as fiction only). It’s fascinating how it made its way into tarot though 😀

 

(but I had no idea about the Father Ted thing - cool!!)

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Raggydoll

I agree that the coloring on the ancien tdm is very soothing and it feels like a classic deck for good reasons. Has anyone seen what the anniversary edition looks like? Also, it said it was a limited edition but I didn’t see how many copies there would be? I went ahead and ordered one nonetheless, from England. It ended up being cheaper than from France. 

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Starlight
37 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

I agree that the coloring on the ancien tdm is very soothing and it feels like a classic deck for good reasons. Has anyone seen what the anniversary edition looks like? Also, it said it was a limited edition but I didn’t see how many copies there would be? I went ahead and ordered one nonetheless, from England. It ended up being cheaper than from France. 

Can I ask where you bought it, @Raggydoll? I've searched and only found it on French sites.

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Flaxen
55 minutes ago, Starlight said:

Can I ask where you bought it, @Raggydoll? I've searched and only found it on French sites.

I bought it just yesterday, @Starlight

 

Searched for ‘coffret de Marseille’ on Amazon U.K. and it came up. 

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