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Learning Tdm (Resources And Discussions)


Raggydoll

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41 minutes ago, gregory said:

It was indeed me. He is a lovely decent person, yes. I will dig the book out at some point, and see.

Please do. I’m very curious to hear more about it. Maybe we can hear a quote or see a snapshot of an interesting page or something, so we can get an idea of what it’s like (and then curse at how we won’t be able to purchase it 🤣)

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1 hour ago, Raggydoll said:

And if you have any tips in regards to how you learned to read TdM then please feel free to share those too

As some of you know, I was absent completely from anything to do with the Tarot for about 10 years. I came back I think this spring. During this absence, the amount of new material and books and other resources on the Tarot of Marseilles flourished to such an extent that I was astounded. (There was practically nothing before in the English language). Ben Doav ? Who's that? Enrique Enriquez - inconnu du bataillon. So many new names and faces. Also some extraordinary ones in the RWS domain - like Benebell Wen to mention just one. It was as if I'd walked out of a painting, not to return to it, but to walk into a completely different painting. (Just like in Harry Potter - I swear it was just like that.)

 

So I've taken some time to research all this. Not to the extent I'd have liked to, due to my obligations. But I think I've got a nice little basic picture in my mind which seems to make some sense. 

 

I would recommend now in 2019, to any person who is wishing to learn the Tarot of Marseilles and PARTICULARLY those who are coming from an RWS background to start with Enrique Enriquez. And not to read with any other method until this skill has been acquired.

 

Some people may even wish to stop there. It is sufficient to be an effective and efficient reader of the TdM.

 

However, if one wishes to go further than just being an efficient TdM reader (there's no harm in stopping there - it won't be dishonouring the tarot), then one has to go beyond his method. Because the Tarot of Marseilles is much more than just a method of reading the cards. It is a thing of poetry and of beauty. In it, we see faintly in the distant, as if in a mist, the old mystics of the East (is it raggydoll who speaks always so movingly of the Desert Fathers?); we have all the mythologies of the world encapsulated in its mysterious images; we have the universe of numbers to wander through; we have the four... and the fifth... and who knows how many more elements as a source to draw from infinitely - like a fountain that never tarries; we have divine wisdom - and I use those two words with care - I'm not tossing them around like some kind of mantra.

 

But if you're starting out new, if you're coming from a RWS universe, I recommend Enrique Enriquez.

 

Well... I think that's about it. 

 

 

Edited by Marigold
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I have Fred Gettings book.  It is out-of-date in terms of some of the historical observations and claims he makes such as about Reims Cathedral, et cetera.  Otherwise, it is quite good but of its time.  Alessandro Bellenghi’s Cartomancy was also an early one.  Beyond that you have to be careful.  Anglo-Saxon authors tended to impose the Golden-Dawn/Smith-Waite meanings which is anachronistic.   

 

You will either love or loathe Dr. Elias’ book.  Dr. Elias has somewhat irrelevant and distinctive idiosyncratic style.   Like Enriquez.  

 

For example, I recall she muses over the association of la papesse with genito-urinary medicine.  Dr. Elias then concludes that it is because she is engrossed in her book.  All of these health associations accord with Silvestre (one of my favourites, too).  Madame Silvestre’s health associations derive from planetary correspondences which Elias’ earlier eschews.  If one enjoys Enrique Enriquez I should imagine one would enjoy her take. 

 

Caitlín Matthews’ book good.  So is the much-missed Ben Doav. He was really nice.  However both of these still rely on symbolic representation.

 

Personally, I advise students to focus on looking at the cards but not associating.  Forget what a sword might mean and focus on what a sword is and what it does.  What is la papesse doing?  When the cards are laid out does blue pool between two cards?  Does something go from blue to red in the next picture?  Do cards increase or decrease?  Does some people grow or shrink?  After that the rest comes naturally.  

Edited by leroidetrèfle
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16 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

This is intended as a master thread where we can share and discuss anything and everything that helps us further our understanding of the TdM. You can ask for tips (or share tips) regarding books, decks, websites etc. Discussions around reading techniques, symbolism etc are also encouraged. Just remember to stick to the topic of TdM :thumbsup:

 

Now, help me make this place feel nice and cozy! Feel free to share many pics... 😊

 

Thank you, @Raggydoll!

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7 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Personally, I advise students to focus on looking at the cards but not associating.  Forget what a sword might mean and focus on what a sword is and what it does.  What is la papesse doing?  When the cards are laid out does blue pool between two cards?  Does something go from blue to red in the next picture?  Do cards increase or decrease?  Does some people grow or shrink?  After that the rest comes naturally.  

Thank you, this sounds like a good place for me to start. 🙂

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7 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

I have Fred Gettings book.  It is out-of-date in terms of some of the historical observations and claims he makes such as about Reims Cathedral, et cetera.  Otherwise, it is quite good but of its time.  Alessandro Bellenghi’s Cartomancy was also an early one.  Beyond that you have to be careful.  Anglo-Saxon authors tended to impose the Golden-Dawn/Smith-Waite meanings which is anachronistic.   

 

You will either love or loathe Dr. Elias’ book.  Dr. Elias has somewhat irrelevant and distinctive idiosyncratic style.   Like Enriquez.  

 

For example, I recall she muses over the association of la papesse with genito-urinary medicine.  Dr. Elias then concludes that it is because she is engrossed in her book.  All of these health associations accord with Silvestre (one of my favourites, too).  Madame Silvestre’s health associations derive from planetary correspondences which Elias’ earlier eschews.  If one enjoys Enrique Enriquez I should imagine one would enjoy her take. 

 

Caitlín Matthews’ book good.  So is the much-missed Ben Doav. He was really nice.  However both of these still rely on symbolic representation.

 

Personally, I advise students to focus on looking at the cards but not associating.  Forget what a sword might mean and focus on what a sword is and what it does.  What is la papesse doing?  When the cards are laid out does blue pool between two cards?  Does something go from blue to red in the next picture?  Do cards increase or decrease?  Does some people grow or shrink?  After that the rest comes naturally.  

Lots of great tips, thank you so much! I’m going to put some of these books on my to-read list. 

 

And a bit off topic but this discussion has gotten me nostalgic and I want to pick up my playing cards again (that’s how I started out as a card reader, in my pre-teens). There is something very calm and comforting about both tdm and playing cards, in my opinion. Maybe it is because they give the brain some serenity and simplicity in a world where new decks and systems are published every day. 

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I thought I would share some resources that I had bookmarked or saved on my hard drive. These relate to the different patterns/types of TdM and how to differentiate them.

 

First this website: http://tarotwheel.net/history/tarot development/the tarot of marseille/jean noblet.html

 

There was a newsletter called "Hunting the true marseille tarot" that seem to have vanished from the web, but I have a pdf copy that I saved. So I am attaching it below.

 

I also remember finding this webpage of interest, but again, part of the links and images seem broken:

 

http://www.destinyclemens.com/blog/the-tarot-de-marseille-made-simple-the-minor-arcana/

 

Luckily I have a pdf copy of that one too, and its attached below.

 

-------

 

What type of resources do you all recommend when it comes to differentiating the different patterns and studying the symbolism? I know there were many discussions on the topic on AT and I might have to dig out some links later. But I would like to know if there are any books or other reliable sources that deal with it.   

 

 

Hunting the true marseille tarot.pdf THE TAROT DE MARSEILLE MADE SIMPLE.pdf

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5 hours ago, Starlight said:

Thank you, this sounds like a good place for me to start. 🙂

You’re welcome. The other thing I would stress is focus on the whole image and not part of it. Le diable’s torch alone is not important. It doesn’t matter what it means. What matters is what the card does in the draw. 

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Here is a link to the thread of Grimaud LWBs as compiled by @_R_ :

Given a bit of squinting, there's some good info to be had. Also, Tchalai Unger's LWB is influential and interesting.

 

Here is an English translation of Paul Marteau's classic book (also influential):

https://smallcabin.org/le-tarot-de-marseilles-by-paul-marteau/

 

A list of Michael S Howard's great blogs covering history, myth, Gnosticism, alchemy, Etteilla, and more:

https://www.blogger.com/profile/06488567669455421279

 

A general introduction to TdM by Enriquez:

https://www.tarotschool.com/TarotTips121101.html

 

A very basic outline of the Camoin method for reading cards:

https://en.camoin.com/tarot/Basic-Rules-Camoin-Method.html

 

Some blogs:

https://taroflexions.wordpress.com/

http://cartomancier.com/en/

http://caitlin-matthews.blogspot.com/

https://tarot-heritage.com/blog/

http://mamawhodun.com/

 

And Andy B's blog is, of course, absolutely wonderful:

https://abfortuneteller.home.blog/category/cartomancy/tarot-de-marseille/

 

I'll post some more when I've got time.

Edited by devin
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34 minutes ago, devin said:

Here is a link to the thread of Grimaud LWBs as compiled by @_R_ :

Given a bit of squinting, there's some good info to be had. Also, Tchalai Unger's LWB is influential and interesting.

 

Here is an English translation of Paul Marteau's classic book (also influential):

https://smallcabin.org/le-tarot-de-marseilles-by-paul-marteau/

 

A list of Michael S Howard's wonderful blogs covering history, myth, Gnosticism, alchemy, Etteilla, and more:

https://www.blogger.com/profile/06488567669455421279

 

A general introduction to TdM by Enriquez:

https://www.tarotschool.com/TarotTips121101.html

 

A very basic outline of the Camoin method for reading cards:

https://en.camoin.com/tarot/Basic-Rules-Camoin-Method.html

 

Some blogs:

https://taroflexions.wordpress.com/

http://cartomancier.com/en/

http://caitlin-matthews.blogspot.com/

https://tarot-heritage.com/blog/

http://mamawhodun.com/

 

And Andy B's blog is, of course, absolutely wonderful:

http://www.abfortuneteller.home.blog

 

I'll post some more when I've got time.

Thank you so much! 

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4 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

You’re welcome. The other thing I would stress is focus on the whole image and not part of it. Le diable’s torch alone is not important. It doesn’t matter what it means. What matters is what the card does in the draw. 

Thank you, @leroidetrèfle. It's very different from the RWS - but I think I can see a glimpse of how it works. I am SO looking forward to studying more. :)

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Devin has given you some wonderful links.
 

However, I must confess to being rather uncomfortable in seeing my journal included alongside such people as Serge and Sherryl. There is very little information on my blog, and I’m not an author of Marseille-material like Caitlín, or even Dr. Elias. 

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On 11/21/2019 at 5:19 AM, gregory said:

I agree with you - though someone did tell me that it was deeply flawed, so - I am not sure why, and hope someone who knows their stuff can explain....

Excellent thread here, guys! I'll be following with great interest. As for Bursten's booklet, I remember liking it well enough and thought it was a good quick reference guide to TdM. I believe Andy Boroveshengara over at the Cartomancy Forum took him to task for stating some opinions as facts, with regards to certain images on a few cards. But I suggest we not toss out the baby with the bath water here. Almost everyone that writes on the Marseille tarot does this. I haven't clocked Andy doing it YET, so ha may literally be the only one not to. But the point's a little irrelevent, since he seems to have shelved his book project for the time being anyway.

 

I've been meaning to reread Bursten anyway, so I'll return with further thoughts with probably a comparison to Ben-Dov's text. Have a good weekend, all 🙂

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1 hour ago, mrpants said:

Excellent thread here, guys! I'll be following with great interest. As for Bursten's booklet, I remember liking it well enough and thought it was a good quick reference guide to TdM. I believe Andy Boroveshengara over at the Cartomancy Forum took him to task for stating some opinions as facts, with regards to certain images on a few cards. But I suggest we not toss out the baby with the bath water here. Almost everyone that writes on the Marseille tarot does this. I haven't clocked Andy doing it YET, so ha may literally be the only one not to. But the point's a little irrelevent, since he seems to have shelved his book project for the time being anyway.

 

I've been meaning to reread Bursten anyway, so I'll return with further thoughts with probably a comparison to Ben-Dov's text. Have a good weekend, all 🙂

Hi @mrpants. It’s Andy 🙂

 

It’s a while since I read Bursten. On the whole, the book is okay. I certainly would not say avoid it.
 

However I do remember something about the empress as being divine feminine, et cetera. Several symbolic associations were employed that are closer to the Smith-Waite pattern. That is the main issue and is likely more reflective of publishers 

Edited by leroidetrèfle
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13 minutes ago, mrpants said:

Oh hello Andy! I completely forgot your new look! Hey thanks for the clarification, here 🙂 Also, very nice to see you. Am I correct in assuming that your book is still on hold for the forseeable future?

Yes. Publication is unlikely something I will pursue any time soon. It’s not needed 🙂

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12 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

 

However, I must confess to being rather uncomfortable in seeing my journal included alongside such people as Serge and Sherryl. There is very little information on my blog, and I’m not an author of Marseille-material like Caitlín, or even Dr. Elias. 

Well, I could have made you far more uncomfortable, but, as I don't want to embarrass you, I shall just say that there is a reason I put your blog on its own line and called it wonderful. Still, the above link has been changed and now takes one directly to your TdM posts.

Edited by devin
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Does anyone know if there are any smaller (traditional) tdm decks available? I have the flornoy noblet and it’s perfect. The Flornoy Dodal hurts my hands (I have issues with my joints). I really like the dodal and would love to have it in a slightly smaller size. The vintage Fournier decks are of a good size but I don’t really use them because of their less traditional appearance (they don’t seem as suited for the type of reading I prefer). Maybe I should look into the mass produced cbd? It’s standard size right? That’s the biggest I can shuffle well. The overhand shuffle is the one that works the best for me. I have tried the others but they tend to cause my finger joints to overextend and partially dislocate 😬 Hopefully the new anniversary grimaud deck is of good standard size too. 

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28 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

Does anyone know if there are any smaller (traditional) tdm decks available? I have the flornoy noblet and it’s perfect. The Flornoy Dodal hurts my hands (I have issues with my joints). I really like the dodal and would love to have it in a slightly smaller size. The vintage Fournier decks are of a good size but I don’t really use them because of their less traditional appearance (they don’t seem as suited for the type of reading I prefer). Maybe I should look into the mass produced cbd? It’s standard size right? That’s the biggest I can shuffle well. The overhand shuffle is the one that works the best for me. I have tried the others but they tend to cause my finger joints to overextend and partially dislocate 😬 Hopefully the new anniversary grimaud deck is of good standard size too. 

If you can get hold of one, the Mamanmiyuki deck is a great size. It is sometimes on Amazon but a bit above average price. It’s smaller than Flornoy’s Noblet but I like the fact that I can do larger spreads easily. 

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1 hour ago, Flaxen said:

It’s a lovely deck to read with - the faces are so expressive. If you look in my journal here, you’ll find some readings I did with it. :classic_smile:

I recognized it from the images, it’s such a pretty deck. I didn’t know it was a small size - now I’m super excited! Thank you!! 

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